Essence of cRPG revisited (split from: Rosh leaving)

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Except that that is not true. Any decent CRPG demands a modicum of intelligence to figure out challenge. If not you might as well play ProgressQuest.

Yet regularly we get people who are the greatestist Fallout fans ever, coming along wanting Fallout 3 to be Morrowind with guns. Surely they've completed Fallout, or just Fallout 2 (otherwise they probably would be interested in a game that they couldn't succeed at) so obviously Fallout being one of the greatest CRPGs doesn't require a modicum of intelligence on the part of the player.

 

[Brother None]

Yet regularly we get people who are the greatestist Fallout fans ever, coming along wanting Fallout 3 to be Morrowind with guns. Surely they've completed Fallout, or just Fallout 2 (otherwise they probably would be interested in a game that they couldn't succeed at) so obviously Fallout being one of the greatest CRPGs doesn't require a modicum of intelligence on the part of the player.

The modicum of intelligence in this case is made up for by a modicum of ability to look up spoilers online.

 

[Per]

A character-defining ruleset is a must, yes. I think you could definitely design a game without levelling or character improvement in the traditional sense, but it would be somewhat unorthodox.

Hmm I'm not so sure, the role playing forum, they don't have stats or levelling, but still are role playing.

It's not a CRPG, though. Freeform roleplaying has never appealed to me, I see it as a kind of improvisational theatre. It's playing a role, but it's not what I call an RPG. I want rules and chance, not a bunch of people making up whatever in real time. A computer game obviously has to do numbers and stuff, although it could be made to hide it all and make it look like there are no "mechanics" at all. I still want the character sheet though.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

It's not a CRPG, though. Freeform roleplaying has never appealed to me, I see it as a kind of improvisational theatre. It's playing a role, but it's not what I call an RPG. I want rules and chance, not a bunch of people making up whatever in real time. A computer game obviously has to do numbers and stuff, although it could be made to hide it all and make it look like there are no "mechanics" at all. I still want the character sheet though.

In a way it is, really there's only one definition of a cRPG that's an RPG played on a computer.

Sander and The Wes Dude were talking about the criteria for an RPG, while I like the advancement of my character and seing the character sheet probably as much as you it's not central to what makes a game a RPG.

The modicum of intelligence in this case is made up for by a modicum of ability to look up spoilers online.

Seriously, I was talking about reactions and knowledge rather than intelligence, otherwise I would of said mental capacity. Intelligence doesn't necessarily mean quick thinking and some times games can have sections that require real world knowledge. But if you haven't had the necessary education you might not know how unless they add in clues or allow for trial and error. Alright games tend to do this anyway but it should be part of the criteria for defining an RPG.

 

[Per]

In a way it is, really there's only one definition of a cRPG that's an RPG played on a computer.

I'm not sure I understand you correctly here... are you saying phpBB is a CRPG because it allows you to play an "RPG" on your "C"?

Sander and The Wes Dude were talking about the criteria for an RPG, while I like the advancement of my character and seing the character sheet probably as much as you it's not central to what makes a game a RPG.

It could be argued that the lines of causality between Choice and Consequence need to be to some degree rationally knowable to the player, which in practice means showing some of the marionette strings that govern the playing world.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I'm not sure I understand you correctly here... are you saying phpBB is a CRPG because it allows you to play an "RPG" on your "C"?

Not at all, that would be like saying Source is an RPG because it powers Bloodlines.

It could be argued that the lines of causality between Choice and Consequence need to be to some degree rationally knowable to the player, which in practice means showing some of the marionette strings that govern the playing world.

I think if the player has chosen to play a diplomat they know they're not going to get very far fighting everyone but where does having character stats help you to decide whether to rescue someone from drowning or not? Even with games like Fallout with character sheets you never know going into a situation if your character is going to be up to scratch or not.

 

[Melanthius]

I'm supprised that people are still discussing "what makes a CRPG"; it's like watching people discuss dinosaurs as if the great behemoths still stride the earth. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to say that true CRPGs are obsolete and irrelevant; what I mean to say is that, IMO, they have become extinct. Taking their place we have a seemingly endless fountain of shallow action-adventure games with "RPGish" elements.

Increasing character stats? Using points to purchase skills? Buying and selling crap at stores? These seem to be the only key criteria nu-players look for in what makes a CRPG these days. If that is the case, then GUN for the Xbox is a "true CRPG"; only it's not.

I do not want to be misunderstood. I am not saying those who discuss "what makes a CRPG" are foolish for doing so; please discuss away. Talking about dinosaurs won't bring them back. Talking about real CRPGs, on the other hand, who knows...

 

[Jebus]

In my humble opinion, I'd have to agree with one of the guys in that TES board thread in saying that you shouldn't judge a game by which genre it is, but judge it by its own merits, simple as that. Wether it is an orthodox RPG doesn't really matter much to me - as long as it's a good game and fun to play.

Not that I say it is, though. I wouldn't know, because I don't have the cash to upgrade my rig sufficiently.

 

[Sander]

In my humble opinion, I'd have to agree with one of the guys in that TES board thread in saying that you shouldn't judge a game by which genre it is, but judge it by its own merits, simple as that. Wether it is an orthodox RPG doesn't really matter much to me - as long as it's a good game and fun to play.

Not that I say it is, though. I wouldn't know, because I don't have the cash to upgrade my rig sufficiently.

It does matter if the developers claim the game is of a certain genre, and then actually isn't, though.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Correct labelling is very important!

Firstly so you don't waste your money on something you wasn't expecting and secondly if they call an FPS with RPG elements just an cRPG and it becomes popular publishers and developers start to make only that type of game for the cRPG market. Leaving the fans of real cRPGs out in the cold.

Oh too late I guess that's already happend.

 

[Jesus Christ]

Over at DAC it has started.

The Holy war on the false RPGs...

King of Creation posted History of the System Wars, part 1 on the TES official forum and it was locked within a minute, and he was than banned. Even I your lord and savior have been banned. But fear not, for our soliers are on the feild and will not falter until the true RPG returns.

 

[The Vault Dweller]

King of Creation was banned!?

I've seen him around here and talked to him in chats. Very nice and incredibly dedicated person. How could they do that?

Thanks for the report.

,
The Vault Dweller

*EDIT*

Oh wait you mean from "The Elder Scrolls" forum. I thought you meant DAC. Whoops!

 

[Roshambo]

edit: damn those fascists! all the threads are gone.

What else can you expect? The only thing to explain why they have sold their own franchise to hell is the unholy concept of "Console Whore". Bethesda has gone there, unashamedly.

I just bet they were tickled about playing the FOS title in their break room and thought their brand of genyous would be welcomed to the franchise, comparatively.

"Yes...we're fans of Fallout! What? It comes on computer, too?"

-----------

That is what I wrote there at DAC, and I have to note that what he did was comparatively tame, and Bethesda are a bunch of candy-assed pantywaists. Truth hurts, huh bitches? Great way to make sure your incompetence gets publicity, you could only wonder if Pete had something to do with it.

Next, Fallout will be banned from there, since you know, they are developing the game as if they played both FOS 1 and FOS 2. Since the initial design WAS split in half for two games, and the work was craptacular, I have to wonder if a beta version for the sequel was somehow given to Bethesda as some kind of background material.

And if that is truly what they mean by "Fallout 1 and 2". You can only wonder.

 

[Jesus Christ]

King of Creation was banned!?

As was Naked Lunch, hatman, armyguy16, and myself. Although some of waht is happening is pure hilarity (for example Isaac Simonov rolling over in his grave) but this is serious business. Bethsoft must come to understand that our community is displeased with their lie in the claim of their latest release being an RPG. If we allow for this to remain unchecked we will have a fallout spawned of demon lies in the form of a linier fantasy-adventure-FPS.

And if we are not careful... Fallout may (like Stalker) have dragons.

 

[Lazarus Plus]

wrong... diablo fails test# 5.

for both diablos.

they both require twitch reflexes.

No, they don't, they require that you can continuously click your mouse. That's not really much of a skill, though, and being really fast isn't going to make the game easier.

Anyway, a turn-based version of Diablo would still pass the test. Hence it's flawed.

You haven't played it lately. They've made it obscenely difficult, so that you have to think and plan and then click. Far too many enemies with various immunities to click mindlessly.

I'm not saying that it's much better, but it certainly requires more thought than the uber buffing that people would do before.

 

[King of Creation]

Oh wait you mean from "The Elder Scrolls" forum. I thought you meant DAC.

I can't really get banned from my own site

But the ban at the Elder Scrolls forum was only a temp ban. Apparently dissing Bethesda, Oblivion, consoles, corporate whoring, and even talking about politics and religion is grounds for account suspension over there.

 

[Roshambo]

I can't really get banned from my own site

But the ban at the Elder Scrolls forum was only a temp ban. Apparently dissing Bethesda, Oblivion, consoles, corporate whoring, and even talking about politics and religion is grounds for account suspension over there.

To this, I wonder if Bethesda will have the cojones to develop a game in which discussion of said game will break their own Candy<s>land</s>assed forum rules.

 

[Jesus Christ]

Let's hope so...

otherwise we are in for an Oblivionesque F3 which will cause both NMA and DAC (maybe even RPGcodex) to spontaniously combust from the dispise of Fallout fans, followed by an influx of Bethsoft fanboy demon-children to our beloved forums.

sinners