Fallout 2 heteronormativity

[Vergil]

I'm genuinely confused because I mentioned RL people. This is like saying, "Why did the chicken cross the road" then answering Knock Knock.

You mentioned one man who was a sniper.
Even if you listed out exceptions to the rule it wouldnt matter. Just because you found a few women who could kick the average guys ass that doesnt mean all women are/can be like that. Theyre generalities obviously.
I can find you a bunch of three legged dogs doesnt make it normal either.

Honestly, my genuine confusion was how he was still fat fifteen years later since you'd assume a post-apocalypse scenario would slim the fellow down (ala Hurley's "I'm three inches in my belt). My point was the guy being the Hunter and GathererTM is a shit idea. His major contribution should have been ANYTHING BUT because he was a genius and scientist but he couldn't get past the fact he wasn't physically suited to the New World and abandoned his family (shit move) because he thought is wife and child would be better off with the former soldier in their group.

Yea the hunter gatherer dynamic is so shit its only worked for the last thousands of years pffffdt fuck that shit

Also some fat cuckold from a tv show isnt an example.
Why are you still bringing up fictional characters when we're talking about real life?

 

[Morrigan98]

You mentioned one man who was a sniper.
Even if you listed out exceptions to the rule it wouldnt matter. Just because you found a few women who could kick the average guys ass that doesnt mean all women are/can be like that. Theyre generalities obviously.
I can find you a bunch of three legged dogs doesnt make it normal

Also the MALE equivalent to those women is a million times stronger AND better at the job (I avoided saying this because of the amount of libcuck butthurt this unleashes).

 

[CT Phipps]

You mentioned one man who was a sniper.
Even if you listed out exceptions to the rule it wouldnt matter. Just because you found a few women who could kick the average guys ass that doesnt mean all women are/can be like that. Theyre generalities obviously.
I can find you a bunch of three legged dogs doesnt make it normal either.

I mentioned the reverse is also true where the men are not necessarily better equipped for it than some women. Also, that technology has resulted in the disparities between the sexes becoming less relevant. In real life, plenty of women can and do serve because of technology, including in combat scenarios.

Infantry is an area where strength is a much bigger advantage but that's been less and less of a relevance since the tank.

Yea the hunter gatherer dynamic is so shit its only worked for the last thousands of years pffffdt fuck that shit

Surprisingly, there was this thing called agrarianism and animal husbandry which put it out of business. The point being that technology and advancement have made the whole dynamic obsolete and it's good that it has been so.

Why are you still bringing up fictional characters when we're talking about real life?

Someone said we were discussing post-apocalypse scenarios in a thread titled "Fallout 2 and heteronormity" so clearly I'm insane.

 

[Morrigan98]

I mentioned the reverse is also true where the men are not necessarily better equipped for it than some women. Also, that technology has resulted in the disparities between the sexes becoming less relevant. In real life, plenty of women can and do serve because of technology, including in combat scenarios.

Infantry is an area where strength is a much bigger advantage but that's been less and less of a relevance since the tank.



Surprisingly, there was this thing called agrarianism and animal husbandry which put it out of business. The point being that technology and advancement have made the whole dynamic obsolete and it's good that it has been so.



Someone said we were discussing post-apocalypse scenarios in a thread titled "Fallout 2 and heteronormity" so clearly I'm insane.

Why is this good? Why should it matter that "GIRLS ARE JUST AS GOOD AS BOYZ" in everything? Why is it so fucking wrong to accept differences and accept that some things will always be that way? Why is it such a fucking problem to accept your lot?

 

[Vergil]

I mentioned the reverse is also true where the men are not necessarily better equipped for it than some women. Also, that technology has resulted in the disparities between the sexes becoming less relevant. In real life, plenty of women can and do serve because of technology, including in combat scenarios.

Infantry is an area where strength is a much bigger advantage but that's been less and less of a relevance since the tank.

Lol because operating a tank is soooooo easy xD
The fucking hubris of you people I swear. Puting peoples lives at high risk just because of your political beliefs.
The differences expand out beyond just strength btw.
Men and women have psychological differences too that make them suited to different things as theyve always been.

Someone said we were discussing post-apocalypse scenarios in a thread titled "Fallout 2 and heteronormity" so clearly I'm insane.

Well that someone must be in your head because no one said that and thats not what the (derailed) thread is about.

 

[Freight83]

This topic still getting looks? lol, crying because a MINORITY isnt represented ( when it is ) is laughable......

Goddamnit! I demand more coprophilia in my games!

 

[CT Phipps]

Why is this good? Why should it matter that "GIRLS ARE JUST AS GOOD AS BOYZ" in everything? Why is it so fucking wrong to accept differences and accept that some things will always be that way? Why is it such a fucking problem to accept your lot?

You're assuming I'm making a political statement regarding technology. I'm just stating that technology has changed things and made it better for people who want to choose what they want to do with their lives. It's like asking, "What's so wrong with Kentucky? Why move to New York?" Well, nothing if you like it, but it's an option now.

 

[Vergil]

You're assuming I'm making a political statement regarding technology. I'm just stating that technology has changed things and made it better for people who want to choose what they want to do with their lives. It's like asking, "What's so wrong with Kentucky? Why move to New York?" Well, nothing if you like it, but it's an option now.

Except technology hasnt significantly changed these instinctual roles for all of human history.....

 

[Jogre]

Ok, so apparently we're getting in to a huge debate about gender roles. Can I just say, rather than debating this on an abstract level, can we instead link all this back to the original point.

This debate started off with @FalloutIsMyDrug saying that in the world of Fallout, there are more likely to be men in positions of power.

In modern day, gender roles are far more fluid in the past, and that's brilliant. If a woman is good at a job thought of as traditionally male, she should obviously be able to do that job, if a man is good at a job thought of as traditionally female, he should obviously be able to do that job.

However, Fallout is not set in modern day. The thing to remember is that our society has been stable and prosperous for some time now, which has given us lots of time to evolve cultural norms and values to be more enlightened and accepting than the past.

The Fallout world, however is set after a nuclear apocalypse. With the collapse of civilized society, you can easily imagine gender roles creeping back in to place, purely because everyone would be out for there own survival, and men being somewhat stronger biologically would probably be somewhat better at surviving in a harsh world, and therefore would likely end up more likely to be powerful figures in that world.

In the time that Fallout 2 is set, the world is prosperous enough to have more diverse gender roles, however there is still probably going to be the lasting consequences of the more survivalist period. Could there be powerful women, or great women fighters in the world of Fallout 2?, Definitely, however the earlier mindsets of the world probably still haven't faded away yet.

 

[Vergil]

Ok, so apparently we're getting in to a huge debate about gender roles. Can I just say, rather than debating this on an abstract level, can we instead link all this back to the original point.

This debate started off with @FalloutIsMyDrug saying that in the world of Fallout, there are more likely to be men in positions of power.

In modern day, gender roles are far more fluid in the past, and that's brilliant. If a woman is good at a job thought of as traditionally male, she should obviously be able to do that job, if a man is good at a job thought of as traditionally female, he should obviously be able to do that job.

However, Fallout is not set in modern day. The thing to remember is that our society has been stable and prosperous for some time now, which has given us lots of time to evolve cultural norms and values to be more enlightened and accepting than the past.

The Fallout world, however is set after a nuclear apocalypse. With the collapse of civilized society, you can easily imagine gender roles creeping back in to place, purely because everyone would be out for there own survival, and men being somewhat stronger biologically would probably be somewhat better at surviving in a harsh world, and therefore would likely end up more likely to be powerful figures in that world.

In the time that Fallout 2 is set, the world is prosperous enough to have more diverse gender roles, however there is still probably going to be the lasting consequences of the more survivalist period. Could there be powerful women, or great women fighters in the world of Fallout 2?, Definitely, however the earlier mindsets of the world probably still haven't faded away yet.

"Somewhat stronger" lol
Not a single woman has made it past US Ranger training, not without help at least.
For the 800th time GENDER ROLES ARENT SOCIETAL.
Its not a "mindset", its nature and the reality of how things are. No amount of "le enlightened progressive society xDDDDD" is gonna magically give women good upper body strength and make them great warriors. Thats NATURE that WILL NOT CHANGE JUST BECAUSE SOCIETY SAYS IT DOES.
And especially in a post apocolyptic or just early civilization age people arent going to realisticallyndo something as retarded as put physically weaker people who are the onlynones capable of making children on the front lines except in extreme desperation.

Btw Modern society's views arent really that "enlightened" anyway when we ignore scientific fact for the dogma of "progressivism"

 

[Jogre]

"Somewhat stronger" lol
Not a single woman has made it past US Ranger training, not without help at least.
For the 800th time GENDER ROLES ARENT SOCIETAL.
Its not a "mindset", its nature and the reality of how things are. No amount of "le enlightened progressive society xDDDDD" is gonna magically give women good upper body strength and make them great warriors. Thats NATURE that WILL NOT CHANGE JUST BECAUSE SOCIETY SAYS IT DOES.
And especially in a post apocolyptic or just early civilization age people arent going to realisticallyndo something as retarded as put physically weaker people who are the onlynones capable of making children on the front lines except in extreme desperation.

I was partly agreeing with you Vergil. If you read the post, I was saying that in a Post-Apocalyptic Society men are more likely to be prosperous and survive.

Perhaps the "Somewhat" threw you off.

 

[Vergil]

I was partly agreeing with you Vergil. If you read the post, I was saying that in a Post-Apocalyptic Society men are more likely to be prosperous and survive.

Perhaps the "Somewhat" threw you off.

You also said that gender roles were an inherrent negative and a social construct, merely a mindset people are in and not a natural ever present human instinct that would fall away (and that being an inherently good thing) once society became more "enlightened".
That its totally resonable to throw women into combat and its just that oppressive culture keeping them from being soldiers and not the fact that on average their mind and bodies could be more unsuited for that type of role on average.
You may have partly agreed with me but that doesnt change the fact that the rest of your post was still wrong

 

[Jogre]

You also said that gender roles were an inherrent negative and a social construct, merely a mindset people are in and not a natural ever present human instinct that would fall away (and that being an inherently good thing) once society became more "enlightened".

Well you misunderstood my entire post then.

I never said that they were always an inherent negative, nor did I say they were purely a social construct. You are mis-quoting me.

I do think that it's better for a prosperous society to allow people to act outside there roles, and not force or pressure people to conform to them, however I do realise that they do have a biological basis, and there will always be some inevitable gender roles, as a result.

 

[Vergil]

I do think that it's better for a prosperous society to allow people to act outside there roles, and not force or pressure people to conform to them, however I do realise that they do have a biological basis, and there will always be some inevitable gender roles, as a result.

Except every prosperous society has conformed to natural gender roles....
Im not saying they cant TRY to go against their very nature but youre memeing me if youre acting like its 9/10 gonna totally work out and the average man and the average woman are totally equal

 

[Buxbaum666]

"Somewhat stronger" lol
Not a single woman has made it past US Ranger training, not without help at least.

You mean the training that didn't allow women to even try until 2015? What "help" did the three women who have since completed the training get, exactly?

 

[Jogre]

Im not saying they cant TRY to go against their very nature but youre memeing me if youre acting like its 9/10 gonna totally work out and the average man and the average woman are totally equal

What I'm saying is that there will always be exceptions to the norm(Perhaps not many, but there will always be some), and that if someone is an exception, they should be accepted for that, and not pressured to conform to the norm.

 

[Vergil]

You mean the training that didn't allow women to even try until 2015?

Gee I wonder why the military who need strong soldiers didnt want to waste time and resources on a generally inherently weaker gender.
Im sure its evil patriarchal misogyny and not that the average woman doesnt have the upper body strength to do more than a pull up or carry all the shit soldiers have to carry.

What "help" did the three women who have since completed the training get, exactly?

http://www.mediaite.com/online/report-claims-womens-ranger-school-graduation-planned-in-advance/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rks-general-vowed-one-pass-sources-claim.html

Also shieet 3 whole women (who possibly got an advantage) out of the countless ones who failed? I guess we should sending them off to die in war too then to prove how much I dont hate women. ;^)

What I'm saying is that there will always be exceptions to the norm(Perhaps not many, but there will always be some), and that if someone is an exception, they should be accepted for that, and not pressured to conform to the norm.

Alright then and what Im saying is we shouldnt act like the exceptions ARE the norm and put them on a pedastel and say anyone can be just like them.


Women arent meant for the military, they're just biological not meant for it and finding a handful of special snowflakes throughout the thousands of years of human history wont change that intrinsict, biological fact.

 

[CT Phipps]

Except technology hasnt significantly changed these instinctual roles for all of human history.....

It really has unless you find the natural gender role of women to be lawyer, judge, and fighter pilot.

 

[Vergil]

It really has unless you find the natural gender role of women to be lawyer, judge, and fighter pilot.

My whole point is those arent the natural roles of almost all women (espec the fighter pilot)
Has the majority of women being caretakers of children and being biologically predisposed to that role changed?
Just because the media pushes the "le stronk wimmin hear me roar!" doesnt make it common even today.

 

[Jogre]

My whole point is those arent the natural roles of almost all women (espec the fighter pilot)

IDK, but Lawyer and Judge don't exactly seem like gender-specific jobs tbh.

I don't see why a man would be better at those jobs than a woman.