Dr Fallout
Centurion
I think we've gone past that.
Fallout 2 heteronormativity
- Thread starter Cyberyn
- Start date
naossano
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
About the gender thing, it only boil down to one thing imo.
You have 10 men and a woman, you get one child a year. You have 10 women and one man, you get 10 children a year. You want you group to be strong, you breed a lot, you make sure your women don't go to war, don't risk their health, aren't able to say no to sex ( or ignored if they say no), and aren't allowed to change the laws. Add some propaganda, make sure the rulers and the priest ensure that the commoners believe that crap, repeat ad nauseam for hundred of thousands of years and everyone will believe in gender role. Other than carrying children, there is few difference between genders. Rest is bullshit.
You have 10 men and a woman, you get one child a year. You have 10 women and one man, you get 10 children a year. You want you group to be strong, you breed a lot, you make sure your women don't go to war, don't risk their health, aren't able to say no to sex ( or ignored if they say no), and aren't allowed to change the laws. Add some propaganda, make sure the rulers and the priest ensure that the commoners believe that crap, repeat ad nauseam for hundred of thousands of years and everyone will believe in gender role. Other than carrying children, there is few difference between genders. Rest is bullshit.
Morrigan98
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Men are stronger, have more robust bones, higher testosterone values by FAR.
Ragemage
Wept for Zion
Jesus Christ's holy face infused with a grilled cheese sandwich, how is this thread still going on? It's gone from there being no gay stuff in Fallout 2 (there is) to just being straight up about whether there really is a gender gap between men and women. Bravo.
Well since I'm taking a break from writing one of the many 10 page papers I have due in less than 2 weeks (goddamnit why did I take so many literary classes at once) I may as well throw a few of my cents onto the pile.
What the OP seems to want is for there to be more gay inclusion in Fallout 2 (even though there already is, and it's probably one of the first if not the first game to have it) but I would rather it have no gay stuff at all than for it to feel like it's simply pandering because "muh LGBTWTFBBQ."
Take Fallout 4 for example. As a bisexual I find myself offended by the portrayal of bisexuality. See, Bethesda wants to come off as progressive by shoving as much gay stuff into the game as they can, but there's no substance behind it. There's a lesbian couple in the very beginning of the game when the bomb is being dropped, but it's just there. Nothing said about it, it's just placed there to say "LOOK WE MADE THE PRE-WAR FALLOUT WORLD PROGRESSIVE, AREN'T WE COOL? GAYS WERE EVEN ACCEPTED IN THIS (insert political word here) VERSION OF AMERICA!" Every single companion is also bisexual but there's no deep reason for this, they just are. It's not like, say, Dragon Age Origins where we actually go into detail as to why characters are gay/straight/bi and why they will or won't want to fuck your brains out. It's only in the game so Bethesda can seem like they're cool and hip without actually having to do any work. This is exactly what I wouldn't want in Fallout 2.
New Vegas does gays just right for me. There's Arcade Gannon for one, who you wouldn't even know was gay until you get really deep into his personal quest and hear how he talks about women or if you have the gay perk yourself. Oh yeah, speaking of, gay perks that get you special dialogue with other gay characters, and you can get both male and female ones on a single character to make a truly bi guy/gal (Lady Killer + Confirmed Bachelor is my go-to). Then there's the fact that gaydom still isn't treated very well unlike in Bethesda's shitty utopia for gays. the NCR looks down on gays (though doesn't seem to outright prosecute them), the Legion literally crucify you if you're gay, Jimmy in Westside gets a lot of dirty ugly talk about him because he's a gay stripper, and so forth. The only place where gays seem truly "accepted" as normal is Gomorrah which is literally a degenerate sex/bdsm dungeon doubling as a casino. Gays are still discriminated against, which is how it should be because it's always going to be like that. I don't like being pandered to unless the game is supposed to be a dating sim. If it's meant to be a realistic post-apocalyptic setting, don't try to make being gay seem natural and everything is fine, because that isn't how the real world works.
Well I think I just officially put more effort into this than the current paper I'm working on. God I'm tired. Fuck Reynard the Fox.
Well since I'm taking a break from writing one of the many 10 page papers I have due in less than 2 weeks (goddamnit why did I take so many literary classes at once) I may as well throw a few of my cents onto the pile.
What the OP seems to want is for there to be more gay inclusion in Fallout 2 (even though there already is, and it's probably one of the first if not the first game to have it) but I would rather it have no gay stuff at all than for it to feel like it's simply pandering because "muh LGBTWTFBBQ."
Take Fallout 4 for example. As a bisexual I find myself offended by the portrayal of bisexuality. See, Bethesda wants to come off as progressive by shoving as much gay stuff into the game as they can, but there's no substance behind it. There's a lesbian couple in the very beginning of the game when the bomb is being dropped, but it's just there. Nothing said about it, it's just placed there to say "LOOK WE MADE THE PRE-WAR FALLOUT WORLD PROGRESSIVE, AREN'T WE COOL? GAYS WERE EVEN ACCEPTED IN THIS (insert political word here) VERSION OF AMERICA!" Every single companion is also bisexual but there's no deep reason for this, they just are. It's not like, say, Dragon Age Origins where we actually go into detail as to why characters are gay/straight/bi and why they will or won't want to fuck your brains out. It's only in the game so Bethesda can seem like they're cool and hip without actually having to do any work. This is exactly what I wouldn't want in Fallout 2.
New Vegas does gays just right for me. There's Arcade Gannon for one, who you wouldn't even know was gay until you get really deep into his personal quest and hear how he talks about women or if you have the gay perk yourself. Oh yeah, speaking of, gay perks that get you special dialogue with other gay characters, and you can get both male and female ones on a single character to make a truly bi guy/gal (Lady Killer + Confirmed Bachelor is my go-to). Then there's the fact that gaydom still isn't treated very well unlike in Bethesda's shitty utopia for gays. the NCR looks down on gays (though doesn't seem to outright prosecute them), the Legion literally crucify you if you're gay, Jimmy in Westside gets a lot of dirty ugly talk about him because he's a gay stripper, and so forth. The only place where gays seem truly "accepted" as normal is Gomorrah which is literally a degenerate sex/bdsm dungeon doubling as a casino. Gays are still discriminated against, which is how it should be because it's always going to be like that. I don't like being pandered to unless the game is supposed to be a dating sim. If it's meant to be a realistic post-apocalyptic setting, don't try to make being gay seem natural and everything is fine, because that isn't how the real world works.
Well I think I just officially put more effort into this than the current paper I'm working on. God I'm tired. Fuck Reynard the Fox.
Gender roles are biological not cultural. Even chimpa and other animals similar to us follow the basic rules of men go out and fight/lead the pack while women raise children and maintain the home.
No amount of crying "le social construct" is going to change women's testosterone levels or the average strength of women compared to men. Men and womsn arent equal, they have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. You having some edgy problem with authority figures doesnt change that.
I mean you kinda should be able to have sex in a fallout game. No need for big cutseen or anything but some to keep the player immersed etc It should also be fluent with PC and NCP like if any NCP is gay that fine but I don't get on fallout 4 the character will start a realtionship with you whatever gener PC si. THis is just terriable just keep it constient for me.
I really don't see where there really a issue with sex. I mean it not like it would stop after the bombs drop and falllout has alaways been an 18 adult game. So why can't it include sex. Also if your character wants to sleep with one or many character it should't matter that much
I really don't see where there really a issue with sex. I mean it not like it would stop after the bombs drop and falllout has alaways been an 18 adult game. So why can't it include sex. Also if your character wants to sleep with one or many character it should't matter that much
I really like this post it makes sence. They should defo put mre work in to gay and bi character and every character in the game should't be bi really. It does't really take much effort to implent dialogue for different characters either.
Realtionship and stuff liek that can be great for character developement. If you want to travel alone or not that option should be viable
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
The thing about science and technology is it exists for the purposes of destroying biology because, really, fuck nature. Polio is a thing which exists in the wild but we stomped on that. Technology compensates for things which biology doesn't provide us and liberates us from the shit which is enforced gender or societal roles.
Morrigan98
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Technology wont make women stronger then men (won't fucking happen I'm sorry, unless you include steroids but that shit turns women into men so that kills your argument), WOMEN WILL NEVER FUCKING BE AS PHYSICALLY STRONG AS MEN NEVER SO FUCKING STOP BRINGING THIS SHIT IN.
It doesnt matter, these are roles that men and women are instinctively predisposed to and always will be. These roles have remained after thousands of years and your hubris in thinking you can just reach in and fundementally change to bedrock of the species wont change that.
Even hypothetically If they need advanced technology to achieve something that resembles equality doesnt that just kinda prove my point that they arent?
This isnt a "le men are superior" rant either. Like I said, both superior and worse in their own ways, yin and yang.
Also lol "fuck nature" good luck with that.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
Which has jack all to do with pushing a button and blowing up shit. Which women can and do all the time now.
Part of the issue is this is such a stupid and lame argument given the Soviet Union solved the issue in World War 2 when women tank drivers and pilots killed the shit out of a bunch of Nazis as well as provided a vital role in smacking the shit out of them.
Morrigan98
It Wandered In From the Wastes
I thought we were arguing on a POST APOCALYPTIC world not the modern one.
what_the_fuck_are_you_talking_about.mp4
Are you saying modern warfare is easy? Hell most women are failing boot camp because their bodies cant handle it and dont even get started on any other form of training. Combat is not just "pushing a button" you imbecile. If a woman can skirt by camp because of political correctness and no one wants to face the fact that generally women arent cut out to be soldiers, what happens when she has to carry a wounded ally? Or has to lift heavy equipment her bodys not made for? Or gets her period on the battlefield? Or one of the many other factors that make it pretty obvious the battlefield is not the place for the vast majority of women. Its not "sexist". If I hated women Id have no problem seeing them killed and injuried in a field they really arent made for. Its stripping women of their natural beauty and strengths and trying to unsex them and turn them into whats basically a shitty dude.
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Morrigan98
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Oh right and these women CLEARLY represent all women right?
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
Unless things are going back to the age of spears and sandals, guns and other materials are still going to be determent factors. The typical Post-Apocalypse world is going to have lots of remnants of the previous one and the assumption it's going to revert to a 28 Days Later, "Men hunt, women breed" is a pretty questionable one at best.
Especially if the goal isn't to revert to savagery but to rebuild the world.
Depending on the apocalypse, it can take 20 years or 2000 too.
No more than Simo Hayha and I can both be counted on to handle sniping enemies. I think he had the advantage.
In the post-apocalypse world, you're going to have your Ricks and your Shanes but there's also going to be the guy like the fat Google guy in Revolution (God I hated that show) who kept assuming he'd be useless but, ironically, would have been incredibly useful rebuilding but let his self-esteem issues think that he didn't have anything to contribute.
Morrigan98
It Wandered In From the Wastes
This is gonna piss A LOT of people off but I genuinely DONOT see the issue in a "Men hunt, women breed" scenario I genuinely don't, I don't see a problem with it.Unless things are going back to the age of spears and sandals, guns and other materials are still going to be determent factors. The typical Post-Apocalypse world is going to have lots of remnants of the previous one and the assumption it's going to revert to a 28 Days Later, "Men hunt, women breed" is a pretty questionable one at best.
Especially if the goal isn't to revert to savagery but to rebuild the world.
Depending on the apocalypse, it can take 20 years or 2000 too.
That fact that all your examples are fictional sci fi characters is really telling.Unless things are going back to the age of spears and sandals, guns and other materials are still going to be determent factors. The typical Post-Apocalypse world is going to have lots of remnants of the previous one and the assumption it's going to revert to a 28 Days Later, "Men hunt, women breed" is a pretty questionable one at best.
Especially if the goal isn't to revert to savagery but to rebuild the world.
Depending on the apocalypse, it can take 20 years or 2000 too.
No more than Simo Hayha and I can both be counted on to handle sniping enemies. I think he had the advantage.
In the post-apocalypse world, you're going to have your Ricks and your Shanes but there's also going to be the guy like the fat Google guy in Revolution (God I hated that show) who kept assuming he'd be useless but, ironically, would have been incredibly useful rebuilding but let his self-esteem issues think that he didn't have anything to contribute.
I mean I guess if you want to take TWD or 28 Days Later as documentary go ahead and get your beliefs from that but I'll stick with the entirity of Human history for mine, thanks.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
The issue is choice. If a woman have no desire to breed and the men no desire to hunt then the gender role doesn't really reflect the needs of the community. Obviously, in a post-apocalypse scenario there's going to be a lot of circumstances which determine what should be the best circumstances for a community of survivors. I think if we're discussing said scenario, we should probably dictate what sort of world we're talking about.
In Cthulhu Armageddon (SELF-PROMO), New Arkham is a totalitarian society where there's strict gender roles but these apply to men as well as women. Women serve in the military but with rare exceptions, its mostly men. You can't choose who your spouse is because they've decided to do animal husbandry with humans to breed what they think of as the best in terms of survivors. Amusingly, I got compared to Gears of War despite never playing those games.
Once the protagonist leaves New Arkham, he has to deal with societies which deal with the issue far more. The Dunwych have a matriarchal-leaning society where women are trained to fight but generally have men underneath them as they're considered the expendable gender to a certain extent. Scrapyard tries to live as pre-war a civilization as possible but is a bit on the sexist side.
The only truly egalitarian society the heroes encounter is Miskatonic University's underground settlement (hilariously made before Fallout 4 and, IMHO, much better) where they all have technology and secureity enough not to worry about it.
Morrigan98
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Wow, its insane that you think that a fat person is held back by his "self esteem" issues and not the fact that he is fat and unhealthy and unfit (no I don't give a shit what you tell me being fat is unfit PERIOD) I don't even get why fat people bitch about it so much I mean you aren't fucking born with deformities or anything OUTSIDE of your control thats keeping you fat, you're fat due to you being lazy. A lot of people bitch about having a "slow metabolism" but I've seen people with diagnosed metablolic problems who got ripped by working hard.Unless things are going back to the age of spears and sandals, guns and other materials are still going to be determent factors. The typical Post-Apocalypse world is going to have lots of remnants of the previous one and the assumption it's going to revert to a 28 Days Later, "Men hunt, women breed" is a pretty questionable one at best.
Especially if the goal isn't to revert to savagery but to rebuild the world.
Depending on the apocalypse, it can take 20 years or 2000 too.
No more than Simo Hayha and I can both be counted on to handle sniping enemies. I think he had the advantage.
In the post-apocalypse world, you're going to have your Ricks and your Shanes but there's also going to be the guy like the fat Google guy in Revolution (God I hated that show) who kept assuming he'd be useless but, ironically, would have been incredibly useful rebuilding but let his self-esteem issues think that he didn't have anything to contribute.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
I'm genuinely confused because I mentioned RL people. This is like saying, "Why did the chicken cross the road" then answering Knock Knock.
I'm not even sure what your argument is. Are we discussing the Post-Apocalypse? Because if so, we kind of have to deal with the fictional.
Honestly, my genuine confusion was how he was still fat fifteen years later since you'd assume a post-apocalypse scenario would slim the fellow down (ala Hurley's "I'm three inches in my belt).
My point was the guy being the Hunter and GathererTM is a shit idea. His major contribution should have been ANYTHING BUT because he was a genius and scientist but he couldn't get past the fact he wasn't physically suited to the New World and abandoned his family (shit move) because he thought is wife and child would be better off with the former soldier in their group.
In short, he agreed with you but doofus made the choice for his family rather than talking with them.
http://revolution.wikia.com/wiki/Aaron_Pittman