Fallout 2 - NCR, New Reno or Vault City?

I'll start from the rear end: It is *impossible* for Enclave soldiers to be careless. They are extremely loyal to the Enclave and well-trained and any loss of equipment would result in demoting and severe punishment. Beside, the secrecy requires that no high-tech weaponry would be used openly. Notice how generally no-one sees the Advanced Power Armor, and those that do, usually die a quick, painful death. Third, the local interference you list is something that does not spread, because the Enclave operates efficently and with a "no-witnesses" policy. Just look how Horrigan cleans up Matt, that family or Vault 13.

The BoS observes. And was able to get a contact inside Navarro, who presumably was able to obtain information about the Enclave, in particular from the mainframe.

Power Armor does appear the first time you're in San Fran, I got there straight from Broken Hills to get them for me and my team, due to me having excess cash after exploiting the uranium ore glitch.

The libraries in big cites do not possess any blueprints or manuals concerning military technology. It's all purely civilian stuff, and I sincerely think it's far-fetched to think they developed a Power Armor with the help of a Toaster Maintenance Kit.

And you really underestimate gangs and looters. It's not general riff-raff, no, just read about Katrina and see, how the looters were armed and shooting at the rescue forces.

More to follow, it's too early to think,

Peace, brothers.
 
Enclave was neither careless nor had truly unfaithful people.

The scientist did cover his tracks, and Frank finding him proves of the skill he posseses. Navarro was an isolated base, but was still receiving new recruits, and possibly personnel rotation was taking place, as part of a training program. Besides, whilst on the Oil Rig, everybody is considered an ally, 'cause there would be no way for an outlander to come and mess around. The darkest spot is under the lantern, jack. Though the bit with the tanker can be blamed on bad design.

Unfaithfull? Both the captain and the doctor decided to flee, because they were tired of the regime and strictness of the Enclave. And why were they left alone? Because they shut up.

Enclave deals with those, who can keep it a secret. Salvatores had lightbringers, but nobody knew where they were from. All other places at which they are seen are either under their control or their allies'.

You saying that Enclave is a commando team etc. is not true, entirely. If that was the case, we would have people all around the place talking about it, reffering to events with the "black demons/armors/knights/etc.". And what do we have? Shards, small clues, like Metzger and his radio, crashed Vertibird with strange corpses, Mariposa, Doc Henry, PMV Valdez, Gecko and at last Navarro.

Besides, who else did the Enclave hunt down?
 
New Reno....though I live in Reno, but that's besides the point.
I like the messed up, drug infested, whore littered, gangland scene to tell you the truth.
For far as political power, I like the Wright Family, but it's kind of a bitch compared to the other gangs.
 
LinksBoxers said:
New Reno....though I live in Reno, but that's besides the point.
I like the messed up, drug infested, whore littered, gangland scene to tell you the truth.
For far as political power, I like the Wright Family, but it's kind of a bitch compared to the other gangs.
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See, New Reno is an excellent roleplaying town with quite a few decent quests and possibilities. However, basically none of it actually fit the Fallout universe. Organised mafia families (four of them, even), a porn studio, bouncers with tommy guns, it's all completely unfitting.

As for jack_of_shades' arguments, you're being completely silly here. You're arguing about whether or not the enclave is secret, while no-one has *ever* heard about the enclave, except in cases where the enclave contacted them. Metzger had a little radio but said nothing, the Salvatores had a deal with the Enclave but everyone in the entire New Reno area didn't know anything about the Enclave (as evidenced by the 'omigod lazurrrrs' attitude of most).
So yes, the Enclave was pretty damned secret to people that don't need to know about them.
 
Ah, for fuck's sake, bring some kind of structure and conciseness into your posts. Using the quote function helps a lot.

Besides that, you're entirely missing the point. Everyone in New Reno was afraid of the lasers of the Salvatores, but no-one knew where they came from. Hence why the Enclave is pretty damned secretive.
The fact that they use their most advanced technology is not a sign of not wanting to be secretive, because they don't mingle with anyone anyway. There's no reason for them to.

The analogy to the BoS is faulty, because the BoS simply didn't allow anyone in, but they did let everyone know they existed. This led to a lot of speculation as to what goes on behind those doors, but no question as to whether they exist or not.


As for your original point, that's rather ridiculous. The Shi were not used for labour because, really, they weren't. There's not even a remote reason to assume such.
And no, the Shi could not really have stolen any tech from them, mainly because the tech is inside a huge, highly secured base. The fact that the Chosen One manages to get some should be attributed to poor design and the excellence of the Chosen One.
Plus, even if they had found a Power Armour, they would have no means to create on anyway. Not even the BoS could do that.

Lastly, this still doesn't change anything about San Francisico being the silliest and least-fitting town in all of Fallout 2. It had an evil and a good kung-fu clan fighting against eachother for fuck's sake.
 
jack, reading your post about manufacturing Power Armor nearly made me cry.

Let me quote the WestTech Research Facility file concerning the T-51b Powered Infantry Combat Armor:

"The T-51b Powered Infantry Armor is designed with the latest passive defense features for both civilian and military disturbances. The back-mounted TX-28 MicroFusion Pack generates 60,000 Watts to power the HiFlo hydraulic systems built into the frame of the suit. Made of the latest poly-laminate composite, the T-51b shell is lightweight and capable of absorbing over 2500 Joules of kinetic impact. The 10 micron silver ablative coating can reflect laser and radiation emissions without damage to the composite subsurface."

As you can read, it's not made from steel. It's made from a poly-laminate composite, and you would need a high-tech laboratory, qualified chemists, raw materials etc. to manufacture it, and they are simply unavalable. As is the TX-28 MicroFusion Pack and HiFlo hydraulic system.

Next, they wouldn't be able to coat the armour with a silver ablative coating. It's too expensive and quite propalby, they do not have the technology.

A Power Armor is not a blacksmith's job. It's a qualified, experienced technician and a darn good scientist's, backed by immense supplies and technology.

The problem is, as Sander said, San Francisco is unfitting. Fallout 1 is the matrix. If something from Fallout 2 put in Fallout 1 would not fit, then it's unfitting. San Francisco should me much more gritty, destroyed, similar to the LA Boneyard.

Next, figure out why Enclave used Redding citizens. Redding was a mining town, and Enclave needed to mine out an FEV sample. Add two to two.

Also, you must remember, that Navarro was first a refinery and then an Enclave base. If so, then it would be logical for the base to have proper tanker docking facilities. Then, the ship would be anchored in the San Francisco docks not to obstruct the Vertibird landng approach and to save at least some supplies at it's maintenance. The captain might've been the one tasked with the safekeeping of the ship and slowly lost his connections to the Enclave as he was exposed to the outside world.

Peace, brothers.
 
jack_of_shades said:
It has been bothering me that there is indeed some simple and fundamental point about the New Reno lazers being a proof of Enclave secrecy issue that I've been missing and I think I've now got it.
The only measure of secrecy that the Enclave showed in this whole affair was landing their vertibird a mile or two outside New Reno ( close enough for a 5~10 year old to get there and back without getting lost/discovered/seriosly dehydrated or being gone long enough for his adult siblings to notice and question him { and hence discover about the whole thing themselves } ) rather than in the Salvators parking lot.
Smugling the chems the Enclave needed out of and the lazers they brought into New Reno without anyone following or noticing and making sure their guards keep silent about it, all this goes to the credit of the Salvatores to whom the secrecy of the whole thing is a hell lot more important because insofar as i understand the Reno power structure, without the lazers the Salvatores go all the way to the bottom bellow the Wrights.
What I can't at the moment account for though is how did they get into contact with the Salvatores in the first place...
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The Enclave contacted them, probably, to get a hold of chems. The Enclave did go out of their way to keep it secret, because they went to a deserted bit of desert where no-one ever goes (because, face it, what kind of dumbass kid would go travelling, alone for several miles in a scorching hot desert?)

Sort of what I was aiming at,the Brotherhood is a well known high-tech organization in NCR yet no one has ever heard of them in Reno because they never had anything to do with Reno, the Enclaves contact with Reno subsisted solely of the occasional discreet exchange with the Salvatores so there was absolutly no reason for anyone in Reno to hear about them.
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Which should be proof enough of them being secretive, since they did have contact with New Reno (discreetly, as you yourself said), but no one finds out. Unlike the Brotherhood, they are involved in New Reno.

To these two points my answer is one : the Mariposa excavation.
As a secret organization that doesn't want to mingle the Enclave could have made all thouse useless PA bums you see sloshing around the oil rig get of their lazy buts and go do some digging.
Instead they chose to use local labour ( not entirely local too since Melchior was from Redding ), this would suggest that when they first arrived at San Fran and had a few dozen Shi bottomfeeders just begging to scrape their decks 'till they shine the Enclave pioneers to this foul new old land might not have found the prospect entirely objectionable.
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Which is completely and truly nothing but conjecture. There is not a single basis in the game for this. Hence, it's just something you convolutedly (eblergh, English)made up to support your point. Remember Occam's Razor.
Also, do remember that previously to the activation of the vertibird facilities in Navaro the tanker was the enclaves only line of communication with the mainland.
Seeing as it is unlikely that the Enclave could scavage all they need for a high-tech military base from the Navaro area, it is likely to assume that they had to haul quite a bit of equipment overland from the docks in San Fran, in addition to this the construction of Navaro itself would also require quite a bit of menial workforce.
On top of that, prior to the vertibirds the Enclave would have quite a bit of trouble bringing in local workforce from outside San Fran ( most of the small settlements where you can go freely kidnaping people without anyone taking much notice seem to be to the far north in the Aroyo/VC/Redding area).
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All of this is useless conjecture as well. They could just as well have manufactured the Navarro base themselves with the tons of equipment and manpower they have aboard the oil rig.

As per my point above there was not a huge(?), highly secured base when the Enclave first arrived,
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If they arrived at Navarro, which is a desolated place, and built a base there, then there was a base created as soon as they landed. Which is pretty likely.

farthermore ere Navaro coming online the Enclave were still liable to need some sort of a local base of opperations and it is not unthinkable that they made some minor base in San Fran and then left some of the equipment there when they departed.
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That's completely unlikely since we have no reason to assume that they need a base in the first place, nor is there any mention of an Enclave in the whole of San Fran. I'd think that they'd at least get mentioned if they had had a base of operations and left a wealth of equipment.

what's more, let us not forget the runaway scientist, the antimutation serum researcher in NCR and the Valdez captain that would suggest some of the Enclave citizens getting the idea that if they nick and sell some of the high-tech equipment they have access to they could have a darn good lifestyle in the outside world.
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Your point being what, exactly? People deserted the Enclave. Hurray. Now what?
After many long decades of combat ( I think that it's the nameless guard beside Cabbot who tells you that the Brotherhood was and still is quite frequently assaulted by outsiders seeking to steal their technological secrets ) and the occasional desertion ( the ones who left for the Glow, Jacob .. it would be quite rare since the paladins are the elite force of the brotherhood but once in a decade or two some overly young or overly old paladin would spend a few hours too many under the sun and decide to march off into the desert ), quite a few PA suits would get damaged beyond repair or lost.
If the Brotherhood was not capable of producing new PA suits they would have been a bit too short on PA to let you have one for saving an initiate and being a person of good repute or to disqualify a PA suit because one of its eye pieces looked funny and then letting you have it once you aquired some central part that they had a plenty of but required going past a lot of bureaucracy to acctually get.
Add to that the possiblity of the Shi getting hold of a PA manual or possibly even of some deserting scientist giving them actual PA schematics and you should see that they should have enough basis for developing their very own PA.
In case what you are pointing at is a lack of materials, I simply disagree, Redding and and Broken Hills would suggest that post war humans have rediscovered the concept of mining and San Fran is a big enough city for the Shi to be able to scavange enough material for a couple of PA suits.
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See Mikael's excellent post. Add to that the fact that the Brotherhood had a room full of materials, including Power Armour.

The Den had gun gangs the Shi have martial art's gangs, what so wrong about that?
Silly and Unfitting, I probably wouldn't have bothered with this whole affair so much if it wasn't.

so long for now :wink: 8)
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Because gangs a la the Den do fit, but Kung Fu really, really doesn't. It just reeks of someone attempting to mesh in some Kung Fu movies he saw[. Completely ridiculous.
 
I've read your post Sander, *Sigh*, I could probably go on for a while longer, waver by design or not your posts seem to be just a tad short of being a killing blow, guess you just like to see a newbie wriggle 'till you get a new one to play with.
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Don't get all huffy, everyone's been put thouroughly in their place by Sander at at least one time. It happens more regularly, the more you Beth Troll/ post ridiculous, unresearched ideas. If you can get away from those two things, you should be able to avoid the wrath of Sander.
 
A little more acheology.
Considering what you've seen and heard during FONV, would you reconsider your choice in Fo2 ?

Personnally, i think i always supported NCR in that three-way influence war for the control of Redding.
But I don't like to have a big monster like the NCR breaking the balance between factions & nation, although i agree that the wasteland need someone to counter the legion. But in the other hand, the legion was kind of born from the NCR. Caesar was raised in NCR territory and he based a part of his ideology in the idea of counter the NCR.

I would have troubles to support New Reno.
If New Reno takes Redding, it would mean that Redding miners become addicted to jet, and that the mob would rule a continuous territory from New Reno to the Den, which would increase slavery.
On the other hand, it provide an emerging nation to counter the NCR.

Having Vault City taking over Redding could increase slavery to, as the "client" would be even closer to the Den.
But Vault City, depending of your actions, could be on the verge of changing, thanks to their proximity with Gecko.
Also, i don't see their political situation stays the same for more than a few decades. Quickly, the unpure would outnumber the citizens and will force more change.
If those changes occur, i would likely give my support to them, to counter the NCR growth.
If they don't change, thing could get worse.

The independant option could be interesting to explore too, but beside Marion, i don't seen much people working in increasing the law...
 
MBO said:
Which political power do you prefer?

I didn't include the Enclave because, although being commanded by the "President", has no contact with the rest of the territory, and is more focused on military actions to "cleanse" the wasteland.

You could select "New Reno" and pick one of the families, of course. Since, for example, while NCR and Vault City both intend to annex Redding, the Mordino Family is trying to conquer it using the Jet addiction problem.

I prefer NCR.
Gameplay wise, I always wipe Vault City clean(can't stand so much arrogance and self-centering, and for also *****ing on the poor ghouls), always help NCR out(although they play dirty with the raider assaults on Vault City - not that I care), and always help the Wright Family take over New Reno.

So, what's your opinion?
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Wiping out Vault-City is evil, regardless if they use light form of slavery.
 
Resardiv said:
"Light form of slavery" is the best thing I've read in a long time:mrgreen:
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I mean, they treat slaves well, from what I know, and even refer to them as "servants" maybe believing that they're doing a good thing, atleast they're not Metzger's slavers or Caesar's Legion.
 
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