Fallout 2 vs New Vegas

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by TheOtherManInTheRoom, Jul 28, 2018.

Which do you think is the better game?

  1. Fallout 2

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  2. Fallout: New Vegas

    21 vote(s)
    63.6%
  1. Squadcar

    Squadcar Still closed. Still closed.

    Jun 1, 2018
    Because arguably, he could be for Vegas at least.

    NCR and Legion have very different problems as Norzan mentioned. That's the whole point, Hegelian dialects is a theme here. The thesis, antithesis and synthesis. The Legion and NCR are two things in conflict that will resolve to form a new proposition. That's what Caesar was talking about. Didn't matter which won in his eyes with this, what he said he believed to be true for either side winning.


    To the initial question. I'm always going to say New Vegas between these two. I love this game a lot and I feel like 2 fixed technical issues of 1 but didn't get the right feeling of the game down and whatnot.
     
  2. Norzan

    Norzan Vault Senior Citizen

    Apr 7, 2017
    I always found it confusing when someone says: why would someone join the NCR, or the Legion or Mr. House? Roleplaying? New Vegas is primarly a roleplaying game and these factions were made with good and bad to be taken into consideration. Maybe one character can agree with the NCR, another with the Legion, another with Mr. House and another for Independent New Vegas.

    These factions weren't made just for the different endings, they were made to suit the beliefs of several characters's ideologies. So when someone says why join any of them in any circustances, i wonder why they are even playing as themselves in a roleplaying game. Kind of defeats the point of roleplaying if you make decisions based on yourself instead of the character you are playing as.
     
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  3. Valdetiosi

    Valdetiosi Valde

    321
    Jul 14, 2017
    I am biased to New Vegas because it's hard for me to get into Isometric games, or kept interested on them. But when I do, Fallout 2 beats New Vegas over the edge. I don't have really anything good or bad to say that would say one is better or worse, since both have their strenght and weaknesses.
     
  4. Squadcar

    Squadcar Still closed. Still closed.

    Jun 1, 2018
    I dig this mindset. I played a lot of New Vegas as it was the only game I was interested in replaying during a time in high school when I had a few classes my senior year and I worked part time. So I had a lot of time without my friends around and nothing better to do with little homework and no work until the evening. I played many different characters I created. Sure, I played as myself in this world too but I made people with their own restrictions and personalities. Some of them really liked the Legion, some of them hated all 4, etc.
    You can play yourself in a roleplaying game, but on your next time through, I always advise creating a character like you would in D&D and maybe throw in some restrictions. It'll be a blast, trust me.
    I liked the Cowboy perk to make a lawful good cowboy. You can only use light armor and whatever weapon types are listed in that perk, you can also not do anything that would give you bad karma or be an outright dick.
    EDIT: Spelling
     
  5. Kohno

    Kohno Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    860
    Jul 30, 2009
    Fallout 2 any day of the week. New Vegas is just too tainted by its Fallout 3 heritage.

    I can still start Fallout 2 and have good fun with it, but I can't take New Vegas for more than 10-15 minutes at a time before I get a gamers block and remember there was nothing on TV but I should watch it anyway.
     
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  6. Valdetiosi

    Valdetiosi Valde

    321
    Jul 14, 2017
    Swap New Vegas with 2 and it's same deal with me. Then again, it might be because of shit ton of other games on backlog, hence my self concious trying to say to move to other games.
     
  7. Orius

    Orius First time out of the vault

    34
    Jul 23, 2018
    I have to say New Vegas, unfortunately. I'm 28, and I grew up with FO3 and its FPS generation. Maybe if I had been exposed to the first two Fallout games when I was young, I might not have found the turn-based combat of Fallout games to be so tedious and cumbersome. I'm afraid I just don't have the patience to wait out 5-10 minutes to clear out a single base of 5-10 enemies.

    I find NV to be the perfect balance between the RPG of the older Fallout games and the FPS combat system of FO3. Of course, it was also a one-hit wonder that died with FO4. Whatever. F*** FO4.
     
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  8. Hulk'O'Saurus

    Hulk'O'Saurus Still Mildly Glowing

    224
    Jul 10, 2018
    I am in the NV camp.

    Not saying that Fallout 2 is bad by any... most stretches, just if you ask me to say which one I prefer, I'd say NV.

    But both have their problems, to be honest.
     
  9. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    148
    Jul 4, 2018
    Interesting, the patience comment. I think that playing Vegas or a similar gameplay require a lot more patience. How else can you navigate in a 3d world in first person view without any traveling device, (horse alike critter, old moppet, even caravans taking you somewhere in a few black screens and possible random encounters like in Fallout) if you aren't patient?
     
  10. Kohno

    Kohno Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    860
    Jul 30, 2009
    That seems to be the majority consensus here.
     
  11. Orius

    Orius First time out of the vault

    34
    Jul 23, 2018
    I just meant patience in the combat sense. Besides, you could still fast-travel in NV using the Pipboy.

    The combat requires A LOT of patience in the older Fallout games, especially when you're clearing out larger bases. The time it takes for NPCs to move towards you as they attack you, I could have used that time to clear out twice the enemies in NV.
     
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  12. SiriusShenanigans

    SiriusShenanigans Those who write on Heaven’s walls...

    96
    Jun 27, 2018
    The joys of classic fallout isn't with doing things fast. Its patient and methodical so you can think out every move, plan your steps in advance. You get to have a full view of the whole battlefield with good descriptions of what is going on, so you can take the time to imagine how all of it is going down, much like you would with something like DnD. New Vegas doesn't really have time for that kind of imagination play, and whats in my imagination is always going to be way better than whats on the screen. Its a different feeling for sure. That feeling translates over to every aspect of classic fallout. Its meant to be dense with search and clicking on things to discover the smallest details that can give you a hint on a quest.
     
  13. Orius

    Orius First time out of the vault

    34
    Jul 23, 2018
    This. This sums up my problem with many sandbox games. Perhaps one part of it is due to my lack of imagination, but I feel like it has more to do with my desire to see something that's real on my screen, not something that requires my imagination.

    Take The Sims games for example. One of the three appeals to those games (alongside designing buildings and building a legacy of families) is that you get to "create your own stories" in a fanfiction sort of style, using the empty templates of these "Sims" as a platform to tell your stories. Unfortunately, the template of the Sims is very limited, so a lot of it comes down to you imagining any fantastical elements that the games are unable to produce on-screen.

    I feel like I'm someone who's attracted by visuals. I like to see amazing things happening rather than think about them. To see and hear something that's real, there's a distinctly different feeling from when you see a mere illusion. Whenever I see something that's left up to my imagination, whether it's an ambiguous film ending or a text-based game like Planescape: Torment, there's often an empty and fleeting feeling that, even when explained, leaves me with a big "So what?"

    Now, of course, much of society frowns upon such an attitude, calling it lazy and uninitiated. But it is what it is; my own personal desire to see the actual thing. A doubting Thomas I am, perhaps.

    But I went offtrack a little bit. Going back to the combat, while I could appreciate the appeal of a slow turn-based system that lets you plan out things, for me, it merely raises my anxiety as I'm unable to dispose of the immediate threat that's lowering my health. For someone with my anxiety condition, I don't need stress like this in my games. I like to enjoy my games, not stress over them.

    Furthermore, if I want to sit and plan out things, I would just go play D&D or even chess. Why would I want to play a roleplaying game where I should feel like I'm in another universe? To sit there and plan how I'm going to dispose of the 8 raiders slowly tip-toeing towards me? Boring. If the Fallout universe was real - and since we are talking roleplaying, let's assume it is for the sake of argument - then you know what my plan is? Attack. Just shoot them in the head. That's my plan.

    You know what's a better analogy for your point about planning things out? Planning how you are going to build up your SPECIALS and how you're going to collect all the skill books. Or planning how you are going to roleplay your character properly so that you perform all the quests in the most evil or good way in accordance to your character's karma (so you know, you don't accidentally become a saint or a bastard by doing a quest incorrectly). THAT's interesting planning. Uninteresting planning for me is planning how I'm going to dispose of enemies. Shoot them, grind them, burn them, stick them with a poker; any of those would work in NV.

    And let's go a step further and say that scheming how to dispose of your enemies can be interesting. Yes, it can, but only if it means you get to use a charisma check, or a speech check, or heck, even better, picking the correct dialogue options or even interacting with the correct NPC. THAT is interesting planning. I hope the nuanced difference here doesn't escape you.

    The problem with the so-called "planning" in the turn-based combat is that the only planning you need to do is before the actual combat happens. You need to pick a good enough weapon which you need to plan beforehand on how to acquire it. When the actual combat happens in the older Fallout games, all you need to do is sit and click, wait for NPCs to slow-crawl towards you and click again, 'till you eventually maybe hit one or two hits on them. THAT's the extent of the planning you're referring to.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
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  14. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Dedman oTO Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    Not in Fallout Tactics, which is how Fallout SHOULD have evolved combat wise.
     
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  15. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    148
    Jul 4, 2018
    That's quite mysterious. Fast travel is a saver of productive time alright, but:
    1, You still need to hike, litteraly, to the locations the first time.
    2, It's still a pure gameplay device with no explanation within the game world, so there you really have to use your imagination or it's just what it is from gameplay perspective, a fast badly designed magical teleporter.
    3, It woudn't need to exist with real coherent means of traveling integrated with the game world.
    4, It's still of no help in various situations. I could have used the fake 'realism' hiking simulator time to go hike for real, myself, something I actually enjoy to do. And the hiking simulator, to my mind, also include the many overdone combats in boring, over-extended, pure FPS levels of this game.

    About Fallout combat, I can only think of a few instances where you have to fight really large groups, and they almost all have other solutions. Beside, some are really dynamic from game world perspective, like the Blades vs Regulators, mr Decker vs the hub's authority, while I admit that cleaning the raiders base in F2, by yourself, can get messy and/or drag in time if you don't come well prepared. But it's not like you have to spend most of your game time in combat mode in Fallout anyway, unlike Vegas where this is more debatable. And I don't see how Fallout require imagination to 'see' what is going on. The game is very 'seeable' and very beautiful, more than most 3d I have seen.
    Fallout combat isn't slow, you just have the illusion it is but even so, the entire gameplay of Fallout will still consume a lot less of your time than Vegas gameplay.

    That's total metagaming if you ask me, not planning, which by nature always include possible unknown elements. But I didn't want to seem on attack mode or something alike, lots of people apparently metagame, and I won't pretend I never did it myself for a little gameplay advantage here and there, like I know that soon I will come across some repair books so I am spending skills points elsewhere for instance. However I am not a min-maxer, I can live without exploiting every gameplay advantages, and I never metagame for quests, stories, and characters. I always treat them like if it was the first time, which is always the case in a way. I can just do that you know, that's strong right?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
  16. Orius

    Orius First time out of the vault

    34
    Jul 23, 2018
    I don't understand the whole "hiking" analogy. I mean, in classic FO, you have to travel on foot to various locations without the ease of fast-traveling, right? How does that require less patience? Even after you've discovered a location, as far as I'm aware of, there's no means of traveling across the world instantly. You have to watch your character marker crawling across the map slowly and hopefully not run into any Deathclaws along the way.

    And by the way, speaking of which, because of the random factors, it doesn't just require patience, it also requires tolerance for the RNG. A lot of it is luck-based, not skill-based. You want to get that alien UFO random encounter? Keep traveling across the map and hope that maybe, just maybe, you can run into it.

    Yes, fast-traveling is not realistic by any means, and it does feel like an illusion, but on the same note, watching a GPS marker slowly moving across the map isn't realistic either. It's not as if you're watching your character hiking throughout the world which you could do in NV. It's a better compromise IMO.
     
  17. SiriusShenanigans

    SiriusShenanigans Those who write on Heaven’s walls...

    96
    Jun 27, 2018
    New Vegas and all the new fallout games are hiking simulators. Its big sprawling levels that take long amounts of time to cross, especially if you don't find anything, and its generally so big that they can't make it an information rich environment. They try to tell you about an area in grand strokes, but its often still very formulaic in its composition. I find that old fallout locations are often more interesting because the most strong features are the cities as locations rather than the roaming wasteland. You don't have to slog through all that much stuff. You get to save your effort for things that are actually interesting. It also does better for crafting an experience for the player. In new fallout, there is so much freedom that it is difficult for a designer to know where a player will enter a town from, so they have to try to make quests and things be presentable from all angles, and it just doesn't work out that well. Classic fallout has a lot more control in that respect.

    There is a lot to imagine and strategize about old fallout. You have to be watching your enemies and managing spacing and movement, health, hit rates against ac, dt, and dr, keeping your squad together and alive. I find that the new fallout games in general are more difficult to play around with ones imagination because when you have a more vivid image in front of you its hard to convince your mind that things happened differently. Its easy to overright a tiny little sprite, but when you have a gamebryo model staring you to death in the face its hard to deviate from that. New Vegas has improvements from the death stare but characters still aren't free to move around while they talk, make gestures and use body language, or any of the other stuff that can help make dialogue more interesting. Not to mention, a line said in your head will always be better than the voice acting. There is just a lot of stuff that makes playing old fallout feel like reading a good book that you get to choose the story for. Its always about acquiring new information and figuring out how it is important instead of following a little arrow, and that feels more interesting for me.
     
  18. Orius

    Orius First time out of the vault

    34
    Jul 23, 2018
    Yeah, I still don't get it. Let's agree to disagree.
     
  19. SMBComix

    SMBComix It Wandered In From the Wastes

    133
    Apr 22, 2014
    I can't stand Tactics' gameplay. I'd have preferred Fallout 1 and 2's foruma remain unchanged.
     
  20. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    148
    Jul 4, 2018
    It's about what I wanted to say, thanks for saving me the trouble.
    I will add that by watching a marker on a world map, you simply know that your character is spending days on the trail, mostly worrying about lonely survival in the wastes. When something else happen, you get a random encounter and it's fine. Your real time isn't consumed by making yourself your character hike, a lot more slowly than on a worldmap. You also have caravans traveling, and in Fallout 1 you can even stumble upon them in the wastes, and make the rest of the trip with them. There is no need for a bad design such as instant travels.
    And if you think of it for F2, the map is so (too much) spread, than the devs even gave the means to get a car. I don't think it was first for the 'cool' factor, but to save the player's real time after a point.
    Even so, walking the worldmap in F2 is still less of a bore than walking a 'real' open world map in 3d.

    And you can't compare towns/other locations navigation in Fallout with Vegas navigation. Characters don't move slowly in the first, because maps aren't designed to fit a fps shooter style in a open world.

    But let's agree to disagree as you say, Orius. What else can we do? Obsidian could have use the 'world is changing' rope to provide some old jurry rigged motorcycle, or new breeded/tamed horse alike creatures for traveling and we might not have this conversation(well, mostly). But since they used bethesda engine, well they didn't have the time to rig the said engine to make this kind of thing happening probably.

    I said it somewhere I think, in my only other experience with modern open world, the witcher 3, the horse is making traveling so fluid that I never used fast traveling.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018