Fallout 2 mod Fallout 2: Weapons Redone v2.3

[JOG]

The thing is, I actually think 7.62 rarity is okay. FO2 takes place in the future, in a setting where no ammo is being produced because there are no factories. I would imagine that ammo types that are very common in the real world today (such as 7.62 or 9mm) would be rare in the future, because they are being used up quickly.

You're thinking too much in terms of 21st century western throwaway-society.

Refilling cardridges is child's play here on this very planet, today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arjc_tKofhA&feature=related

You just need the empty cardridge, fill it with an explosive of some sort (in a pinch smokepowder will do) cast a bullet and attach it to the cardridge...

Of course it won't be as efficient as industrial ammo, yes the gun may explode in your hands but it would be fine enough for surviving in the wastelands.

Making ammo for gauss-weapons should be even easier, you just need a casting-mold and the right alloy.

Caseless ammo and Energy cells would be irreplacable, though.

 

[Magnus]

Would you know. I bet most people don't know you can charge an iPod for 20 minutes with an onion and a bottle of Gatorade, either. Ah well.

Cubik:
.45 should be in equal amounts as 5mmAP where I've listed it. There should also be about 10-30 .45 in some graves in Golgotha. Anyway, play with it! Just let me know when you feel finished

 

[Cubik2k]

Magnus, very fine, I'm just working on it, few maps are finished, I think I will finish all after tomorrow.

 

[Magnus]

v0.5 is out, everyone check the first post!

 

[Dravean]

Switchblade 3-12 damage, penetrate, 3AP thrust
Shiv 3-90 damage, penetrate, 10AP thrust .

Those two are typical concealed stabbing weapons, one used in jail one in clubs, both have a thin blade or just a spike, there isn't much slashing or troat-slitting to be done with those weapons, and not much place for varying damage (=penetration depth) you use them to stab someone in a crowd and walk away while he collapses.

Just some proposals:

Switchblade: 8-8 damage, penetrate, 3AP thrust, Crit Fail 2

It shouldn't be throwable either because the mechanism is too heavy (unbalanced) and after throwing a few times the mechanism might break or become shaky. There is no handguard, and the knife may fold itself at the most unconvenient moment, so a higher crit rate.


Shiv: 9-9 damage, penetrate, 3AP thrust, Crit Fail 3

It's a spike with a taped-on handle, many ways to break it or hurt yourself.

I concur. While I'm sure you aren't going to completely alter the way you want to handle these weapons, Magnus, you should at least take these points into account.

 

[Elitech]

Re: Magnus Weapons Redone

And for the deadly assassins:
Shiv / 3-75 / 10 / Penetrate

Is that ALWAYS 10 AP? Reduce that, not everybody plays with max agility &/or max APs...

 

[Magnus]

Re: Magnus Weapons Redone

And for the deadly assassins:
Shiv / 3-75 / 10 / Penetrate

Is that ALWAYS 10 AP? Reduce that, not everybody plays with max agility &/or max APs...

Then again not everyone should be able to assassinate, which is a skill for only the most agile. But fine, I'll reduce it.

 

[Elitech]

Re: Magnus Weapons Redone

Then again not everyone should be able to assassinate, which is a skill for only the most agile. But fine, I'll reduce it.

Agreed, but it's not only based on agility (i.e. Action boy). So, I'd put it to 8... or TOPS 9. 8 seems fair, even if you have 10, you ain't got much AP left (unless you're an AP junkie)

Is it possible to insert a skill check for the weapon (or the "assasinate" ability)? I.e. Assasinate is possible only if Agility=9 or more... Or skill= 90% or more etc...

 

[Magnus]

Re: Magnus Weapons Redone

Then again not everyone should be able to assassinate, which is a skill for only the most agile. But fine, I'll reduce it.

Agreed, but it's not only based on agility (i.e. Action boy). So, I'd put it to 8... or TOPS 9. 8 seems fair, even if you have 10, you ain't got much AP left (unless you're an AP junkie)

Is it possible to insert a skill check for the weapon (or the "assasinate" ability)? I.e. Assasinate is possible only if Agility=9 or more... Or skill= 90% or more etc...

Not unless you are a good scripter, i.e. not me. I will put it to 9. It is meant to use up your entire turn.

 

[Josan12]

@ Magnus: i liked your earlier ideas for improving laser and thrown weapons but it seems to me you're getting a bit carried away:

Ammo: IMO There is already too much ammo in the game. Adding more will create more of an imbalance. You mentioned yourself the FO world is supposed to be a wasteland: arms manufacturing stopped long ago, and the idea is that the player has to scavenge and trade for what little is left. Why then add 7.62 just because you like the guns that use it? In the interest of game balance i would put aside your preferences in weapons and ammo and if anything increase the challenge in finding ammo. Then the player will appreciate it all the more when he finds it.

Shivs and Switchblades: 9 AP is the maximum cost for an action in FO2 (piercing kick) some good points have been made against a 10 AP. 9 is better, i would suggest 8 or less and make the attack a little less 'massive'. These weapons are, as has been pointed out, simply just concealable knives.

Throwing: I agree the main weakness of throwing weapons is in them disapearing under a pile of dead mole-rats and not being able to pick them up again. Is there no way to solve this?

Spear: Check out this thread for some ideas we threw around on adding a new, advanced spear to bring spears back into the later stages of the game:

http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41346&highlight=spear+swing

 

[Magnus]

@ Magnus: i liked your earlier ideas for improving laser and thrown weapons but it seems to me you're getting a bit carried away:

Ammo: IMO There is already too much ammo in the game. Adding more will create more of an imbalance. You mentioned yourself the FO world is supposed to be a wasteland: arms manufacturing stopped long ago, and the idea is that the player has to scavenge and trade for what little is left. Why then add 7.62 just because you like the guns that use it? In the interest of game balance i would put aside your preferences in weapons and ammo and if anything increase the challenge in finding ammo. Then the player will appreciate it all the more when he finds it.

Shivs and Switchblades: 9 AP is the maximum cost for an action in FO2 (piercing kick) some good points have been made against a 10 AP. 9 is better, i would suggest 8 or less and make the attack a little less 'massive'. These weapons are, as has been pointed out, simply just concealable knives.

Throwing: I agree the main weakness of throwing weapons is in them disapearing under a pile of dead mole-rats and not being able to pick them up again. Is there no way to solve this?

Spear: Check out this thread for some ideas we threw around on adding a new, advanced spear to bring spears back into the later stages of the game:

http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41346&highlight=spear+swing

*sigh* (note to self - stop making weapon mods)

The shiv assassination is controversial, I know, but I still like it. It will be 9AP in the next version and have no Penetrate. I will probably take the Penetrate away from the Switchblade and make it do around 6-12 damage. See, the penetration depth does matter, but so does hit location. The blade might hit only flesh. Or it might hit your liver. Or it might pierce your gall bladder or your stomach, leaking battery acid or Whatever into your body, eventually killing you. It might get stuck in a rib, or it might go between them and pierce a lung. This all makes me sick to talk about, anyway.

I just realised that I powered up the already powerful Combat Shotgun without reducing its damage. That will be done in v0.6.

The game does have much ammo, but not until you get to San Francisco. And there are never big enough quantities of 7.62, 9mm, Needler ammo or 9mmBall, and when you finally get some, you are already using Bozars, Plasma Rifles and Mega Power Fists, effectively taking the weapons that use those kinds of ammo out of the game.

I will never ever add new weapons to the game, period.

You will have to ask someone super-skilled to edit the way items are being shown on the ground, so that knives and thrown weapons appear on top of everything else. I can't do it.

Cubik2k:

Scratch the ammo amounts that I've mentioned so far, people don't like it. The values below are the ones I really want, sorry to change my mind like this:

I would like a few clips of .45 in various Golgotha graves.

I would like there to be around 100x 7.62 in Vault 15

I would like there to be a Mauser pistol, 2 clips of 9mmBall and 3 of 9mm in a locked locker in Vegeir's room in the Ghost Farm, or perhaps Vegeir could carry it.

I would like there to be 4 clips of both types of Needler ammo in the Vault City armoury.

EDIT:

For v0.6 I've given the sucky AP ammo a boost:

All AP ammo including rockets gets a negative AC modifier equal to their negative DR modifier +15, for example:

14mmAP: -50 DR and now also -35 AC

All AP ammo base damage is 3/4 instead of 1/2, including rockets.

In addition, I've edited Explosive Rockets to behave just like 10mmJHP in terms of damage calculation.

The AP ammos are now more efficient, though for the damage to be calculated correctly you also need a patch to the fallout engine. Killap's patch comes bundled with one made by Glovz, though you must switch it on in the ddraw.ini. I highly recommend doing this, as it will finally allow the AP ammo to act like it should.

 

[Glovz]

EDIT:

For v0.6 I've given the sucky AP ammo a boost:

All AP ammo including rockets gets a negative AC modifier equal to their negative DR modifier +15, for example:

14mmAP: -50 DR and now also -35 AC

All AP ammo base damage is 3/4 instead of 1/2, including rockets.

In addition, I've edited Explosive Rockets to behave just like 10mmJHP in terms of damage calculation.

The AP ammos are now more efficient, though for the damage to be calculated correctly you also need a patch to the fallout engine. Killap's patch comes bundled with one made by Glovz, though you must switch it on in the ddraw.ini. I highly recommend doing this, as it will finally allow the AP ammo to act like it should.

My mod will not help AP ammo if you implement these changes.

 

[Elitech]

*sigh* (note to self - stop making weapon mods)

Why? The only thing most of us trying to do is suggest to you how to make this or that better (for the game). I see no reason for you acting like that...

There's no point in you making a weapon mod and nobody using it. So that's where we ("users") come into play. How many times did you say for some game "I wish the creators put this or that in, that'd be much better"? That's what we're trying to do for ourselves and, in the end, for everybody else... You take notice of our constructive criticism and feedback and implement it in the game so everybody will have more pleasure in playing it.

 

[Magnus]

EDIT:

For v0.6 I've given the sucky AP ammo a boost:

All AP ammo including rockets gets a negative AC modifier equal to their negative DR modifier +15, for example:

14mmAP: -50 DR and now also -35 AC

All AP ammo base damage is 3/4 instead of 1/2, including rockets.

In addition, I've edited Explosive Rockets to behave just like 10mmJHP in terms of damage calculation.

The AP ammos are now more efficient, though for the damage to be calculated correctly you also need a patch to the fallout engine. Killap's patch comes bundled with one made by Glovz, though you must switch it on in the ddraw.ini. I highly recommend doing this, as it will finally allow the AP ammo to act like it should.

My mod will not help AP ammo if you implement these changes.

I've just realised that, too. Was about to edit that post now. I've PM'ed you about a few questions regarding your ammo mod.

*sigh* (note to self - stop making weapon mods)

Why? The only thing most of us trying to do is suggest to you how to make this or that better (for the game). I see no reason for you acting like that...

There's no point in you making a weapon mod and nobody using it. So that's where we ("users") come into play. How many times did you say for some game "I wish the creators put this or that in, that'd be much better"? That's what we're trying to do for ourselves and, in the end, for everybody else... You take notice of our constructive criticism and feedback and implement it in the game so everybody will have more pleasure in playing it.

Ah, you misunderstood me! I guess I was being unclear: It's tiring that modding/foruming has gone from a side project into a second job, it was not meant as a discourager to anyone wanting to criticise the mod But of course the attention this mod has begun to get makes up for a bit of extra toil. And anyway, if I'm sweating a bit, Killap is in Hell.

I'd like there to be some consistency in the weapons' stats, but of course the voice of the people is the voice of God. Stabbing weapons like the Switchblade will have lower damage ranges in the next version.

Ammo changes scratched since it makes them incompatible with Glovz' mod. By the way, Glovz, since your mod uses dmg mult for ammo identification purposes, would it work if I gave them a negative AC modifier? Or would any change to the ammo .pro make your mod go poof and revert to the default FO2 formula which does boop-fuggedy-all damage?

 

[JOG]

And anyway, if I'm sweating a bit, Killap is in Hell.

At least he has the fallout-bible as a template.

Unavoidable whining:

Little Jesus / 8-20 / 3(4) / no longer Penetrate

I think Little jesus is a tad bit too powerful now in comparsion with other knifes

Wakizashi Blade / 10-25 / 3(4 Thrust) / Penetrate

A short finely crafted knife. The tip seems to be designed to pierce armor.

So when it got penetrate because of the description, it also should be a knife, not a sword.
Sidearm-Dagger: 6-14 / 3(4 Throw) / Penetrate

A sword shouldn't penetrate armor, but have much higher damage and a long range thrust attack.
Samurai-Shortsword: 10-25 / 4(5 Thrust) / No Penetrate

 

[Cubik2k]

Cubik2k:

Scratch the ammo amounts that I've mentioned so far, people don't like it. The values below are the ones I really want, sorry to change my mind like this:

I would like a few clips of .45 in various Golgotha graves.

I would like there to be around 100x 7.62 in Vault 15

I would like there to be a Mauser pistol, 2 clips of 9mmBall and 3 of 9mm in a locked locker in Vegeir's room in the Ghost Farm, or perhaps Vegeir could carry it.

I would like there to be 4 clips of both types of Needler ammo in the Vault City armoury.

If I understand properly:
Only those changes you last wrote? Ok, no problem, I make all you want

 

[Elitech]

Ah, you misunderstood me! I guess I was being unclear: It's tiring that modding/foruming has gone from a side project into a second job, it was not meant as a discourager to anyone wanting to criticise the mod But of course the attention this mod has begun to get makes up for a bit of extra toil.

You realize that just means you are doing a GOOD job...? *THUMBS UP*

 

[Minigun Jim]

Yup. And of course with a smaller mod like this and regular releases, it's progressing quickly, so you keep the interest.

Although I'm confused on why you added the Shotgun changes in this version. Shotguns knocking an enemy back six foot would mean it'd have enough recoil to throw you back that much . And from a game balance point of view, those two weapons are good anyway (20% hit bonus, good damage, common ammo). It doesn't seem to make sense from a realism or a balance view.

As for the sawn-off I'd say it's fine as it is, or with just a touch more range and power. It's a fairly poor gun in comparison to any other shotgun, but a great one compared to other one-handed weapons. If you take one-hander, it's brilliant as an anti-melee gun. It doesn;t nedd a +40% hit chance really because at that short range even a +25%-30% one would give you a huge chance on an aimed shot. Although the mod version may be worth it for the exact damage range you chose. 13-37?

Oh, and about the ammo changes. You wouldn't end up making it more ammo if you also removed some of the common types like 10mm and 12-gauge in some of the caches. That would even add to the scarcity feel by making you consider taking multiple guns to make use of what you find.

@Josan.
In FO2 as opposed to FO1, there are a larger established cities with mechanics, chemists and machine shops, and Redding, which ships gold and also "ore" (Iron? Copper?). Enough to put together basic shells. In fact in FO1, the chemist in Adytun mentions he makes explosive for the smith to reload casings. And for the energy cells, you could assume that anywhere with a reactor would be recharging them.

 

[BigBadPig]

Hello, Magnus!
Presently trying your mod I find it most satisfactory. The changes to low-tech weapons are long due, in my opinion, and throwing skill has finally become interesting and worth the skillpoints put into. Ditto for big guns - they're much more enjoyable now.
I've just one question: are you considering upping unarmed creature damage too? Both the NPCs (like Goris or them dogs) and the enemies fighting unarmed seem like a bit weak now, compared to the ones with melee or hand weapons (the geckos used to pose at least moderate threat to me at some early stages of the game, for example, now there's none)? I think it would only be fair (if it is, of course, possible technically), to up their damage also.
What say you?

 

[Magnus]

Thanks everyone for the feedback!

Cubik2k:
I regret having to inform you that I have changed my mind regarding more ammo in various maps. It's not that I don't think it's a good idea, but because I want to keep the mod simple, easy to install and not dependant on source files. It was in any case very helpful of you to volunteer like that, and I'll tell you if I ever need help with anything else. The Algernon scripting is a likely case.


Unarmed combat:
Goris is technically armed with a weapon named Claw, which means I can increase his damage and so on. The problem comes with the player unarmed damage, which AFAIK is not handled by item .pros and is probably scripted or possibly even hardcoded (unlikely). I don't know about Geckos/enemy Deathclaws and other unarmed critters.

Shotguns:
I've had some rethoughts after playing with them a bit now. In v0.6 I'll settle with editing the Sawnoff. And the Knockback doesn't seem to work for ranged weapons anyway, sadly. I will, however, edit the Shotgun ammo so it does mayhem against unarmored but is pitiful against armored.

AP Ammo:
Everyone take a look at the rightmost algorithm in this spreadsheet for a cut-out of the current situation (but remember that there aren't any JHP weapons that do 20 base damage):
http://cubik2k.w.interia.pl/pliki/damage_algorithms.png

FAIL.

Well, I've got some very good news after having tossed around my calculator a bit last night: AP Ammo will be PERFECT in v0.6, and JHP will do less damage against armored enemies but still (almost) the same against unarmoured ones.

This will be accomplished without having to edit the damage calculation formula, meaning the mod will stay compatible with both Killap's RP and the Megamod, but not with other ammo mods.

Some details (not sure about rockets and needler):

All AP ammo will behave just like FMJ, only with more DR and AC reduction.

All JHP ammo will have a higher DR addition. A real hollow-point will not penetrate a fairly thick metal plate, but it does leave a dent. (Any gun nuts please don't correct me, even if I'm wrong.)

For the JHP, I'm thinking 5mm + 27%, 10mm +30% and .44 + 33%, i.e. the bigger slugs and the flatter tips, the more spreadout of momentum when it hits the armor. The stupid thing is that these values are also applied when the critter is unarmoured, but oh well. Perhaps I could give the JHP a 5/2 damage mod and put their DR around 30-40%? I'll experiment further and find a solution.

My Fallout 2 installation just got boofed because I had the brilliant idea to install Killap's patch again in a folder named Backup, to look at its files. It did so, and also removed the Fallout files, meaning I have to re-extract every bloop-fuggedy-yawn thing AGAIN. Mph. My Norwegian exam is also due tomorrow, but there might be a teeny-tiny v0.6 up for the grabs somewhen in this weekend. I'm looking forward to its alpha release (or is it beta?). Oh, and I'll do some changes to my changes in the melee weapons assortment, too.