Fallout 2 mod Fallout 2: Weapons Redone v2.3

Discussion in 'Fallout General Modding' started by Magnus, May 8, 2008.

  1. Glovz

    Glovz Vault Dweller
    Modder

    735
    Sep 16, 2005
    @Magnus

    I have replied to your PM, sorry it took a while, I hope it helps you understand what I did in my mod.
     
  2. BigBadPig

    BigBadPig First time out of the vault

    26
    Jan 14, 2008
    Then maybe its worth a shot (concerning NPC's damage)?
     
  3. Minigun Jim

    Minigun Jim It Wandered In From the Wastes

    157
    May 12, 2008
    @Magnus
    Firstly, the laser mod is fantastic! Laser pistols are now comparable to a .44 with a lower STR req, and the Salvatores are properly SCARY. 2 shots a turn blowing holes in my Combat Armor!

    http://user.tninet.se/~jyg699a/fallout2.html#items
    The other (ally and enemy) Deathclaws are equipped with Claws too, just a lower-powered variant in the case of the unnamed ones, so you could independently change Goris and "wild" Deathclaws' damages.
    As for the Geckos, what about equipping them with Claws that are destroyed on death? That said, they are early-game vermin and they should be beatable from Arroyo, so maybe just arm the Golden ones?

    If you can fix the AP bug and make it work with Killap's mod, you deserve a parade! (rubs hands in anticipation of a 14mm Handgun that actually works). This is going to make a lot of bad guys a lot scarier...

    Finally, a word of warning on the Shotgun. It might seem unfair against armor, but a LOT of foes at any level of play carry Shotguns of some sort, from Highwaymen to Security Bots to Enclave Troopers, and altering the ammo will seriously affect balance throughout the entire game. Remember you can always give your allies the best available guns but the enemy are stuck with what they're got.
     
  4. Magnus

    Magnus Weapons Manufacturer Modder

    948
    Dec 6, 2007
    Thank you very much, it is something I've wanted to do since I found my first laser pistol. Remember that Metal Armor MkII is much better than any Combat Armor against laser. Equip that when you want to take on the Salvatores.

    EVERYBODY! Check out the link below for a spreadsheet detailing some changes I've made to FO2's AP ammo. This is what you've all been waiting for since the official patch came out. (no less)

    http://files.filefront.com/MwrAmmoArmorValues06xls/;10315575;/fileinfo.html

    EDIT: Replaced with the actual sheet from v0.6, which is now finished!
     
  5. Slaughter Manslaught

    Slaughter Manslaught Vault Senior Citizen

    Dec 11, 2006
  6. Slaughter Manslaught

    Slaughter Manslaught Vault Senior Citizen

    Dec 11, 2006
    I've just read the spreadsheet... IMPRESSING!!

    Before, AP was just... pitful. Ridiculous. A mockery of ammunition. No better than throwing this big here rock against a Super Mutant. I remember the Church Fight with Lara packing the AP ammo... all I could say about the old AP ammo can be surmised in three words:


    IT WAS HORRIBLE!!!

    The 14mm Pistol looks particulary awesome, about as good as the .233 Pistol. Oh, what about comparing the damage done by the "now-pretty-powerful" 14mm pistol with the "Still Pretty Powerful" .233 Pistol, which was one of the best one-handed weapons of the game?

    I wonder if you can give some enemies FMJ and AP. The Slaver-Overseer in NCR would be particulary scary if he hit me with a 14mm you, I wonder if it's possible for you to give a 14mm to another slaver and replace some 10mm AP for some guys armed with the 10mm SMG and the P90... that would make some badguys pretty scary, even when with Combat Armor. EDIT: Weird stuff. I just killed the guys at Vault 15 and found out that anyone with a Assault Rifle has lots of AP ammo... But the gun is loaded with JHP bullets. Weird. I think there are other examples of the same problem in some places, as well.

    Also, did you test those new ammo vallues against monsters? Golden Geckos were pretty sturdy against 10mm JHP, I wonder if using the all-new 10mm AP would work on 'em. What about making a speadsheet for critters?

    I agree with you. Laser Pistols turned, from Suck Rays, to Cool Lasers. I love laser weaponry, Plasma's for pansy losers, I like Laser Rifles!

    (note: I believe the Laser Pistols got a lower str req because they have no recoil, altough the game animation shows recoil, there's none)

    I'm still using the previous version (I want to finish my game and I'll patch when the next one begins). I fought the Salvatore one of those days. Me, Cassidy (both with Combat Armor, mine was MKII, though, I like my shiny stuff being mine) and Marcus. I was packing a Laser Rifle, Cassidy had a Pancor Jackhammer and Marcus had a Minigun.

    It was lasers flying everywhere. The barman turned again into a barman (instead of the Almighty Barman, who was more threatening to me than the entire family :lol:) and the 23th century-gangsters turned into true 23th century gangsters. With lasers. I stood-out against the laser barrage because I had Combat Armor MKII and boxing resistance bonus and the two basic implants. But they usually brought my health down after about four turns of laser barrages against me, now only because their laser weapons were scaring, but I had 2 EN and around 80 HP at level 21. Cassidy and Marcus fared worse, though. Cassidy usually got 20 damage or even 30 if unlucky. Marcus got it even worse, the Laser Pistol worked like a charm against him. Four shots and he was almost dead and running away like a panssy. I've never, I'll repeat, NEVER, seen the Salvatores doing that kind of hurt! Making Marcus, The Super Mutant Extraordinarie, RUN?! Whoa! They aren't the lame-o Mobsters with Suck Rays anyome, but THE Salvatore Family, who has Lightbringers able to leave a trail of death in any battle against any other New Reno family! Don't mess with 'em! We eventually bested the Salvatores, but with dificulty and sweat. The loot was worth, though. And the barman hated Myron for some reason (Myron was far outside), so I had to shoot him too before he killed that loser. I can't wait for the mod update with better armor vs laser damage! I'm downlading it as soon as I end my current game!
    Thank you for fixing many things, Magnus!
     
  7. Magnus

    Magnus Weapons Manufacturer Modder

    948
    Dec 6, 2007
    v0.6 is out, with some changes to melee weapons and shotguns, and a huge improvement of the game's AP ammo system. Everyone should download a copy right now, read through the first post in this thread again and also read the spreadsheet that demonstrates the ammo changes I've made. Hope you all like it.

    The church fight, where people use 10mm Pistols and wear Metal Armor, is a good example of how my changes work. Lara will now do 2-9 damage while the ones with JHP do 3-9, as opposed to Lara doing no damage at all and the ones with JHP doing 2-9. But if every gang member was wearing Combat Armor, then every gang member would do 1-4 damage while Lara would do 1-8. If you strode in, wearing Combat Armor MkII, and pissed everyone off, then Lara would hit you for 0-7 damage while the others hit you for 1-2. As you can see, the 10mm Pistol does not make the most out of the AP ammo's capabilities because of its low damage. But remember that the HK P90c also uses 10mmAP - and hits for 12-16 - and has burst...
     
  8. Slaughter Manslaught

    Slaughter Manslaught Vault Senior Citizen

    Dec 11, 2006
    If you are indeed right, then the HK P90c will turn into one of the better weapons of the game. Because, while it's strong, you don't have much to resort to when you really need some armor-piercing going for you. When I tried to disrupt the Secret Desert Meeting Of O'l Buddies between Enclave Soldiers and Salvatores, I got mowed because my P90c had no way to penetrate the Advanced Metal Armors the soldiers had. I used Glovz's mod inside the RP. Even AP armor was worthless. Tried using 14mm, too. To no avail. Manson was right: No Peashooters, indeed. Next time I disrupt the Secret Desert Trasation, I'll bring a 14mm and a HK P90c with me, I'll test em to see if AP ammo is all that jazz.

    EDIT: Also, these guys packing 10mm pistols and other outdated guns in Vault 15 will make sense. Almost all pack AP ammo, because, at that point, the player has Combat Armor already. Strange enough, everyone there has JHP bullets in their weapons... but they have AP ammo to the gills! BIS really needed some better playtesters...
     
  9. Magnus

    Magnus Weapons Manufacturer Modder

    948
    Dec 6, 2007
    To Advanced Power Armor, the HK P90c should do about 0-3 damage per bullet with AP ammo. The 14mm Pistol should do 0-8. The .223 pistol still is better than the 14mm, but that's because it has such a high base damage (which I'm thinking of reducing a little bit).

    Also, not because it fits into this mod in any way, but because I like the idea, I will try to make Buffout increase max HP, and make all kinds of portable food restore HP like it does when you buy it at restaurants.

    JHP vs Geckos: The 10mm Pistol is indeed weaker against Geckos, I've yet to see it do more than 7-8 damage against a Golden one. The Dunton brothers went down in 2 or 3 shots, however *smirk*.
     
  10. Slaughter Manslaught

    Slaughter Manslaught Vault Senior Citizen

    Dec 11, 2006
    Yeah, I think you could put some weapons to test against certain critters. I think I'll test the AP ammo against Geckos, Deathclaws and Wanamingos in my next game. I remember that .12ga kicked absolute wanamingo ass, a Combat Shotgun could bring the creepy crawlies down. I wonder if a 10mm SMG full o' AP ammo or a 14mm Pistol can break the tough shells of the Wanamigos, proving that I AM the cowboy king of Redding!

    And the Dunton Brothers must live in a town where no one is toting hardware. They love to go around and act tough, but they're not so tough when you draw your gun! They probrably met their ends when the Buckners, other farmers & friends came crashing down their doors after learning that they were stealing the Brahmin. I love the RP and I love this mod. :D
     
  11. Magnus

    Magnus Weapons Manufacturer Modder

    948
    Dec 6, 2007
    When I first uploaded v0.6, I noticed a few last-minute bugs that I fixed and uploaded a couple of days after, but without updating the readme or first post, creating a "silent" version. These fixes have been moved to v0.7, and here is the changelog:


    Changes in v0.7:

    Mod name changed to the less vain "Fallout 2: Weapons Redone", F2WR in short, to clean up a "silent" version of 0.6.

    The Club does 6-7 damage and costs 3AP (I just realised it's made of wood), the Wrench does 6-9 damage, the Spiked Knuckles do 5-8 damage and the Crowbar does 7-10 damage.

    Cleaned up a few typos in the readme.

    Corrected a mistake that gave the 10mm SMG a single shot AP cost of 4 instead of the 10mm Pistol.

    The 10mm Pistol does 7-12 damage, the 10mm SMG still does 6-13.


    Coming in v0.8:

    Buffout will increase max HP like it should (and decrease it during withdrawal, which means you can OD on it)

    AP rockets and Needler AP fixed, possibly also Shotgun ammo

    I will take a closer look at all the weapons in the game and see if there are any I don't like.
     
  12. Elitech

    Elitech Still Mildly Glowing

    282
    Apr 22, 2008
    Then rename mod into F2: Items Redone :-)
     
  13. Cubik2k

    Cubik2k Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
    Modder

    484
    Nov 22, 2005
    Magnus, see critter's stats of armors, against we will fight while using your mod. All is ok, but the critters armors stats, hmm...

    I see your mod is similiar to my old ammo mods, however, good job, new blood and new ideas. Keep the work :)
     
  14. Magnus

    Magnus Weapons Manufacturer Modder

    948
    Dec 6, 2007
    Where are these stats located?

    I agree that JHP ammo is now a bit overpowered against unarmored creatures (Though it should be, as JHP shots unfold like sunflowers inside a body and cause massive bleeding, they're even forbidden to use here in Norway, I think), especially Radscorpions. Game balance is important, though, and I will see what I can do once someone tells me how to do it, i.e. which files hold the critter armor values.
     
  15. Cubik2k

    Cubik2k Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
    Modder

    484
    Nov 22, 2005
    The critters armor stats are in critter proto files, you must change critters stats if you want to work AP ammo patch. If you do not change critters armor stats then ammo patch will not work properly.
     
  16. Magnus

    Magnus Weapons Manufacturer Modder

    948
    Dec 6, 2007
    Hoo-raah, everyone! Thanks to a gentle nudge from Cubik2k, I have found out how to edit unarmed damage and armor stats for all critters in the entire game, possibly even the player. I will eventually make all of these values fit with the ammo values I've set, though this will be a large project.

    I am going to do this myself sooner or later, but if you want to help, a good way would be to use the latest version of the mod, use FALCHE2 to give your dummy character a massive number of Action Points, find a species of unarmed critter, like deathclaws, geckos and so on, and attack it systematically with all types of JHP, single shots only. Then post your results here and tell me if you think the various ammos do too little or too much damage against that particular critter. It doesn't have to be painfully accurate, as long as it looks something like this:

    Small radscorpion attacked with Magnum, Assault Rifle and 10mm Pistol: 5mm just right, 10mm a little too much, .44 way too powerful.

    If anyone helps me out with this, the mod will be finished faster. I myself am going to start with a Desert Eagle on smaller Radscorpions and Golden Geckos. For now, let's concentrate on critter armor and not critter damage, as that will be a separate project later on. Also, let's stick with JHP for now and do AP when we're done with that.

    I've got a rudimentary idea of how I'd like the critters' DR/DT to be, listed below by armor hardness. The 10mm Pistol's theoretical min-max damage is listed beside in parenthesis, (JHP/AP):

    Lvl. 1: Unarmored humans/rats/small pig rats/all kinds of mole rats/small geckos/brahmin/dogs/cats/Sulik's sister's hampster: Soft and vulnerable, should stay unarmored. (12-23/7-13)

    Lvl. 2: Large pig rats/mantis/large geckos/ants/small Deathclaws/Mutants (including Marcus)/plants: Thicker skin, so better DR than the above, perhaps DR/DT stats like 20/2? (7-13/5-11)

    Lvl. 3: Golden and Flame Geckos/large Deathclaws/small Radscorpions/Floaters/Centaurs: Skin begins to resemble armor, perhaps 30/3? (4-9/4-10)

    Lvl. 4: Large Radscorpions/something else?: Exo-skeletal and well protected, 40/5? (2-4/2-8)

    Lvl. 5: Wanamingos/Aliens: Almost every ammo but FMJ and AP should be useless, 50/6? (0-0/0-6)

    I know that there are several subtypes of critters, such as Tough Lil Gecko and Super (Duper) Mutants, so there will be many "sub-levels" in addition to the ones above.

    Since .44 JHP has a lower DR modifier than the others, it would be preferable to keep the Magnum loaded with JHP versus any beast but Large Radscorpions and Aliens, while 5mmAP and 10mmAP would be the best choice against any beast from Lvl. 3 and higher, once I make these changes, of course.

    I've got two more exams this week, so don't expect any updates until the next one. Take care, everyone.
     
  17. Minigun Jim

    Minigun Jim It Wandered In From the Wastes

    157
    May 12, 2008
    Installed 0.6 last week. Brilliant! AP now acts as a logical choice for armoured foes. It's especially obvious in Raiders, where it's worth swapping ammo types mid-fight to use on the Captains. Also after playing about with Throwing more it's no first-choice skill, but you definitely made it worth raising to about 50% for grenades.

    However, I've got some doubts on your critter plans. If you're not careful the mod's going to suffer from power creep. The AP ammo power goes up, then you balance it against critters by increasing their armor, then you balance unarmed against the weapons by increasing unarmed attack power....
    Right now it's pretty good. It makes the game that bit faster paced and more dangerous.

    Careful on the critters. Radscorpions are FO2's "trash mobs". They're the very second thing you encounter, right at the start in the Temple of Trials. They're a common encounter in low level areas and they come in large numbers. If you give them heavy armour they are going to be an incredible nuisance in the earliest stages. If you want to upgrade them, I'd suggest slightly increased damage and armor on the big ones only.

    Finally, one suggestion I'd love to see implemented for Big Guns. Single-shot mode. Not necessarily aimed, but some of them could have single shot without being silly. I'm thinking of the M60 and LSW, as both are machineguns that could fire singly, as opposed to the miniguns. The LSW even has a scope on it. That would make those guns useful as the "light" Big Guns you gould use on weaker foes without wasting ammo on bursts all the time.
     
  18. Magnus

    Magnus Weapons Manufacturer Modder

    948
    Dec 6, 2007
    Here are some of my newest observations from having played the game a bit with 0.7 installed:

    Don't even think about trying to take on Metzger or even Lara/Tyler's gang (though it's OK if you have one of the gangs as backup) until you have at least 2 NPCs with you, all of you have Metal Armor and weapons like Hunting Rifles, 10mmSMGs and Magnums. Otherwise, you and your NPCs are likely to end up dead.

    The same goes for robber/slaver/highwayman encounters, which should make those get-rich-quick schemes a bit harder. It's still easy to earn tons of cash by just watching as two of the groups above fight each other, but I guess it should be.

    AP ammo is better than JHP against the Pariah Dog

    AP ammo is much better than JHP against Fire Geckos

    AP ammo does roughly the same as JHP against Golden Geckos.

    JHP does much more damage than AP against Radscorpions, which is some baaad shait. It will be amended in v0.8

    The Assault Rifle is absolutely brutal now, it should be your favorite weapon until you get a HK CAWS or one of those 4.7 caseless SMGs.


    And here are some decisions at the top of my head for v0.8

    Assault Rifle and Hunting Rifle will have a hit bonus of 20 instead of 40, as 40 is too much (duh)

    Minigun Jim is right about the critter armors. They will stay as they are, but I will increase the large radscorpions' armor so that AP ammo is more efficient against them than JHP. I will not increase the small ones' armor, for obvious gameplay reasons.

    Minigun Jim is also right about the single shots for some biggie weapons, the only reason why it hasn't been implemented yet is because I thought they already had it!
     
  19. Slaughter Manslaught

    Slaughter Manslaught Vault Senior Citizen

    Dec 11, 2006
    Whoa, that's awesome! The Assault Rifle was a great piece of firewood before that. If it's absolutelly brutal, then I MUST use it!

    Although I'm not a realistic guy, I think that Assault Rifles being useful make sense.

    Suggestion: When you're not busy, could you take a look at the FN FAL HPFA?
     
  20. Magnus

    Magnus Weapons Manufacturer Modder

    948
    Dec 6, 2007
    Look in the spreadsheet in the link in the first post in this thread! everyone! it's right there! and compare the Assault Rifle's new damage values to the old ones. You will see that it is more powerful than it used to be, but also that you need to use AP ammo in it to do effective damage against Combat Armor and upwards.

    What and where is the FN FAL HPFA?! I've seen it in the game files, but never actually found the weapon myself. It's obviously not the same as a regular FN FAL or one with a night sight mod, but what is it and where do you find it? *slightly embarassed*