Fallout 3: Bad to the Bone
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Anarchosyn
Still Mildly Glowing
Kyuu said:
What was it that David Folly once said? "Embellishment is the root of good storytelling.."
Anyhow, I remember being run out of Klamath Falls in FO2 and getting the chance to interact with them all at a later date. Perhaps I merely reloaded a save, but I could have sworn it was a case of forgetful (well, forgiving) AI. The Den too..
Guy I'm talking to said:
Where did you read INT doesn't effect your dialog options? You agree it did in Fallout 1 and 2, right? Did Bethesda expressly state this to be the case in some preview or press release?
Normally I'm not such a "doubting thomas" but this is something that would *really* sour me on the game. Honestly I can't tell if you're denying intelligence ever had an effect in any past Fallout titles.
mandrake776
Still Mildly Glowing
I believe they said that Intelligence was emphasized less as the provider of dialogue options to make CHA a more valuable stat, as all it previously had going for it was how many NPCs you could have. Given that you're limited to 1 NPC they thought giving you the ability to bullshit better if you're more charismatic made sense. Personally, I agree.Anarchosyn said:
Anarchosyn
Still Mildly Glowing
mandrake776 said:
Any word on what INT does now? I mean, obviously it ties into certain skills.. but did they give it any other purpose outside of that to compensate?
Bethesda disappoints me.. Why did Van Buren have to die? ..
What is going on with these guys? Why do they not hire a professional PR person? Who on god´s earth lets someone named Emil take the stool, let alone doze off into a school-shooter type murder fantasy? It's a a multi-million dollar enterprise, what is going on?
I'm starting to slowly think that a large portion of the game coming off so shit during previews is because of the poor presentation on behalf of Bethesda and the network of online magazines. When I look at stuff like the Child at Heart perk, or the Pip Boy design I think: "OK, so maybe these guys arent hopelessly untalented after all!" And then, all of a sudden, stuff like this just falls out of the sky. This magnifying glass of expectations really brings out all the immaturities of the video gaming industry: it's lack of ethics regarding critical thinking, and especially it's lousy, god-awful, high-school journalism. The way these previews are worded compared to, for example movie or music articles, makes the product seam disgusting. I can listen to, for example, Noel Gallagher brag about the next Oasis album and know it's going to be dead boring but still get interested because the man has charisma and the journalist knows how to present that. But these guys... Oh lord, do they not know how to do their jobs.
That god damn tone! i am so sick and tired of that 13 year old Postal playing thing. A lot of the music industry also revolves around 13 year olds, but they somehow manage to downplay that when it's "official time".
In conclusion: what we've just heard is regular ideas presented in an apologetic, immatue manner, making them sound like awful ideas.
Mark my words, you would not be bitching about the 24 hour thing, had it been Boyarski / Kieron doing the presentation on both ends. It is a logical, player friendly decision, present in most CRPG´s. Yes, both Fallouts as well.
Turning into a ghoul really fast is OK, universe rules are there for coherence, not for restricting dramatic development. It looks like a nice dramatic moment and should not be bogged down by some guys who've read the Fallout Bible and now think of themselves as Guardians of Reality.
All the talk about the ethics of killing raiders is pointless. Call them monsters. There are monsters/zombies/adversaries in everything that has a little action in it and killing tose guys has never been a moral issue in a dramatic kind of way. They're tools and should not be talked about unless you wish to go into a long discussion about mechanics.
That said, the lack of any remotely interesting options in taking the bad guy route is worrying indeed. None were mentioned. What about dialogues, managing the outcome of minor quests, that stuff? i find that people, emotionally mature human beings, tend to wanna play a dr. House kind of cynical guy instead of a boring murderer. You already, basically, are an insane murderer in all shooters, why do it in RPG´s? The options for being anything like that cynical, truly enjoiable, truly wish-fulfillment type of character, if present in the game, are not at all represented here. or in any other article about this game. Weather this means a) crap presentation
b) lack of imagination on Bethesdas part
remains to be seen.
PS. Sorry for the long, boring rant. TLDR, I know, I just haven't had the possibility to express myself clearly about this before, unlike most of you, who post regularly, and dont't just lurk around.
I'm starting to slowly think that a large portion of the game coming off so shit during previews is because of the poor presentation on behalf of Bethesda and the network of online magazines. When I look at stuff like the Child at Heart perk, or the Pip Boy design I think: "OK, so maybe these guys arent hopelessly untalented after all!" And then, all of a sudden, stuff like this just falls out of the sky. This magnifying glass of expectations really brings out all the immaturities of the video gaming industry: it's lack of ethics regarding critical thinking, and especially it's lousy, god-awful, high-school journalism. The way these previews are worded compared to, for example movie or music articles, makes the product seam disgusting. I can listen to, for example, Noel Gallagher brag about the next Oasis album and know it's going to be dead boring but still get interested because the man has charisma and the journalist knows how to present that. But these guys... Oh lord, do they not know how to do their jobs.
That god damn tone! i am so sick and tired of that 13 year old Postal playing thing. A lot of the music industry also revolves around 13 year olds, but they somehow manage to downplay that when it's "official time".
In conclusion: what we've just heard is regular ideas presented in an apologetic, immatue manner, making them sound like awful ideas.
Mark my words, you would not be bitching about the 24 hour thing, had it been Boyarski / Kieron doing the presentation on both ends. It is a logical, player friendly decision, present in most CRPG´s. Yes, both Fallouts as well.
Turning into a ghoul really fast is OK, universe rules are there for coherence, not for restricting dramatic development. It looks like a nice dramatic moment and should not be bogged down by some guys who've read the Fallout Bible and now think of themselves as Guardians of Reality.
All the talk about the ethics of killing raiders is pointless. Call them monsters. There are monsters/zombies/adversaries in everything that has a little action in it and killing tose guys has never been a moral issue in a dramatic kind of way. They're tools and should not be talked about unless you wish to go into a long discussion about mechanics.
That said, the lack of any remotely interesting options in taking the bad guy route is worrying indeed. None were mentioned. What about dialogues, managing the outcome of minor quests, that stuff? i find that people, emotionally mature human beings, tend to wanna play a dr. House kind of cynical guy instead of a boring murderer. You already, basically, are an insane murderer in all shooters, why do it in RPG´s? The options for being anything like that cynical, truly enjoiable, truly wish-fulfillment type of character, if present in the game, are not at all represented here. or in any other article about this game. Weather this means a) crap presentation
b) lack of imagination on Bethesdas part
remains to be seen.
PS. Sorry for the long, boring rant. TLDR, I know, I just haven't had the possibility to express myself clearly about this before, unlike most of you, who post regularly, and dont't just lurk around.
Anarchosyn
Still Mildly Glowing
Marat Sar said:
Hey, I read it. No worries or need to apologize for venting what you feel. Good show, and all that.
Ultimately, however, we're going to have to play the "wait and see" game. Honestly, with emotions running so high (and so many gamers unfamiliar with the original titles) I probably won't have a clue till I play it for myself. Half of the reviewers will ignorantly compare it to Halo opposed to Fallout 2 and the other half will compare it to nostalgically imbued perfection opposed to giving it a legitimate chance.
*Sigh*..
Oh and for the record, though Emil does come off like a twat in most of these pre-release PR videos, I give him a pass. He worked on the Thief titles for Looking Glass back in the day and helped bring a touch of elegance to that side of Oblivion (one of the few elements I rather enjoyed were the Thief guild missions - *far* deeper than what Bethesda had crapped out in the past).
Guard: Halt, who goes there?!
Player: Its just same old me.
Guard: Hey arent you the guy who killed half of the town yesterday including my family.
Player: Yeah, i had a one of those days, my mutt eat my breakfast and some kid bump me on the street. Look, im really sorry so can you let me in.
Guard: Well OK, you look sincerely sorry, but dont you go on killing people no more ya hear.
@Marat Sar: I agree with much of what you said, and what you said was worded very well. As I stated in my objectionable fervor earlier in this particular thread, with this new addition, the entire process of this game just seems so chaotic and mismanaged. Some good elements are lost while OK elements sound annoying. I was so lost as to what to think, I didn't even see what was in front of me. I really do not want, and won't bash a guy like Emil for simply stating his feeling. He's probably a perfectly good guy, same with most of them, but you're right, to put certain comments made like that out as professional advertising is not professional at all. After I calmed down, I thought more like you, going back to my original feeling that this still will be an alright game, but yes....the presentation is a right mess. With as much controversy and pessimism already surrounding Fallout 3, they should be much more careful. As annoyed with Todd as people are, I personally think he does a good job most of the time. (he DOES seem to be 'the leader') I actually laughed and was listening when he was talking about the stealing aspect. I was simply a bit creeped out by the others, although it's nothing different than you would hear from many 'average' gamers. You just shouldn't post up "lopping grandma's head off and staring at it" on a promotional video. That's like something you'd see posted underneath a YouTube video.
So, although I still believe they have made some pretty heavy mistakes, I appreciate your well thought out post. It helped to bring things back into perspective.
EDIT: I should also state that I really enjoyed Emil's comments on the previous video. This was all just badly played. I read some small comments on a couple other boards briefly, and a lot of people felt that same strange vibe.
EDIT: Ah...I was reading through Beth's board and one of those things I missed while being frightened was the slave collar bit. Just wanted to put my 2 cents in and say that I thought that was actually cool. I wondered if slavery would really be apparent in this edition and it looks like they may have actually thought it out. Slavery and discrimination were two of the very hard things I remember from Fallout 2.
Someone also made a good point which I didn't think of. Duh... This isn't confirmed, but it's a very good thought, IMO...
TornadoADV:
"Remember, the 24 hours is only so they don't attack you on sight, your rep is still shot and they are most likely to go ape-&*$^ on your [censored] again for a much smaller thing. You can also bet on less NPC interaction and higher prices at stores. Your actions are never forgiven in that manner...."
So, although I still believe they have made some pretty heavy mistakes, I appreciate your well thought out post. It helped to bring things back into perspective.
EDIT: I should also state that I really enjoyed Emil's comments on the previous video. This was all just badly played. I read some small comments on a couple other boards briefly, and a lot of people felt that same strange vibe.
EDIT: Ah...I was reading through Beth's board and one of those things I missed while being frightened was the slave collar bit. Just wanted to put my 2 cents in and say that I thought that was actually cool. I wondered if slavery would really be apparent in this edition and it looks like they may have actually thought it out. Slavery and discrimination were two of the very hard things I remember from Fallout 2.
Someone also made a good point which I didn't think of. Duh... This isn't confirmed, but it's a very good thought, IMO...
TornadoADV:
"Remember, the 24 hours is only so they don't attack you on sight, your rep is still shot and they are most likely to go ape-&*$^ on your [censored] again for a much smaller thing. You can also bet on less NPC interaction and higher prices at stores. Your actions are never forgiven in that manner...."
ivpiter
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Wow, the Beth sandbox philosophy as applied to Fallout karma.
Looking at the videos and reading this thread reminded me of this review (just replace one of the designers with Beth and the other with Interplay (Chris A, Leonard B., Scott C., Tim C., etc..)
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/130-Alone-in-the-Dark
Interplay: Let's have a dialogue system that is impacted by skills and have drastic changes for very low intelligence.
Beth: Great idea, expect scratch the low int dialogues and let's have everything VO'ed... with mostly Oblivion voices.
Interplay: Let's have a karma and city reputation system that tracks not only your general reputation but also each location.
Beth: Terrific, except let's add a way to quickly change your reputation and have it decay.
...getting an Ultima 9 type vibe from this video.
Looking at the videos and reading this thread reminded me of this review (just replace one of the designers with Beth and the other with Interplay (Chris A, Leonard B., Scott C., Tim C., etc..)
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/130-Alone-in-the-Dark
Interplay: Let's have a dialogue system that is impacted by skills and have drastic changes for very low intelligence.
Beth: Great idea, expect scratch the low int dialogues and let's have everything VO'ed... with mostly Oblivion voices.
Interplay: Let's have a karma and city reputation system that tracks not only your general reputation but also each location.
Beth: Terrific, except let's add a way to quickly change your reputation and have it decay.
...getting an Ultima 9 type vibe from this video.
Outbreak said:
The ominous music did it's part as well. I guess he's an OK guy and already regrets it so now I kinda feel sorry for him. But, I mean, how did this situation come about? Didn't they get to see the video before it was posted? There you are, two days after another school shooting, this time in Finland, again, where there are about 10.000 people at least, lining up to buy FO3. Your talking about what is basically a guro fantasy, there's ominous music playing in the background and a creepy stare in you're eyes. AND, according to how your marketing department has decided to sell this, you are backed up by slow mo shots of limbs getting torn off and heads exploding, just to, you know, spice things up!. How does it happen, that you don't say: "Whoah! That makes me look like an insane person! Could we edit that?"
In the end, I'm afraid the truth is, that some teams have more talent and others less. It's just really, really difficult to acess that talent on the basis of crap video game interviews. but yeah, we all know where I'm leaning with my prognosis.
Ok, so I am deeply disturbed by these videos on a different scale, that might already've been talked about to death, but neverhteless. What I see is a game that definitely and ultimately plays like a shooter. With typical action shooting and moves. That is a huge turn-off for me, personally. Despite the "bullet time" excuse for paused aiming. Then, the vault-boy icon message type in the upper left corner is so consolishly retarded, that it is annoying the hell out of me. Did you notice the devils HORNS on the vault boy hen you gained bad karma ? The latest trend to have console ports display their messages in gigantic font across the screen, denying you the option to change that, is fueling my never-ending hate for console gaming.
Just my 2 cents rant
Just my 2 cents rant
@Marat Sar: Yes, I really noticed the music. That just made it that much worse. I felt really strange watching it. Very weird, and I'm a fan of Manhunt for crying out loud. As far as Emil seeing it before release, he may not have. It could have been as simple, as many interviews are done, that a team went in, had the interviews, shot the footage, shook hands and then ran off to edit in what they thought was the best. I may be wrong... Maybe they thought it was more humorous than disturbing... I don't know, but yeah, I feel a little sorry for him too. My bet would be more on the editing department once you include the music and the perfectly timed "guro"...lol I never thought of that. 
The school shooting was a good point too.
@tsonan: I see your points. The only thing I am doing mentally at this stage is to simply hope it's as good as Fallout: Tactics which had more combat elements than RPG ones. Some people may not have, but I still enjoyed that game. If F3 is at least as good as that, I'll be OK. Haha, the lack of actual tactics though kind of sucks.
PS: I prefer the devil Vault Boy to the happy drunken Vault Boy when you blast something.
The school shooting was a good point too.@tsonan: I see your points. The only thing I am doing mentally at this stage is to simply hope it's as good as Fallout: Tactics which had more combat elements than RPG ones. Some people may not have, but I still enjoyed that game. If F3 is at least as good as that, I'll be OK. Haha, the lack of actual tactics though kind of sucks.
PS: I prefer the devil Vault Boy to the happy drunken Vault Boy when you blast something.
fedaykin said:
Funny thing is, I wish I could find the image again, someone made a parody screenshot for Fallout 3 before any details were revealed, a kind of "your worst dreams come true", it was a person getting shot in first-person while the Vault Boy held his thumb up in the corner going "only 999 kills to go until your next Xbox achievement"
Not too far off the mark in hindsight
A 1995 film starring Dustin Hoffman said:
Worse, I'd say: GTA isn't about choice and consequence, except maybe II, the spray-paint mechanic just fits the whole freeplay style that works for GTA or TES.
It just doesn't fit Fallout. But it's crowbarred on now.
mandrake776 said:
Actually, you can talk him down to just getting his "share of the loot"
Which, note, he never does. Serves him right.
(not that this has anything to do with the bartering system, note)
mandrake776 said:
Not to mention Oblivion's barter-interface (and inventory interface) are amongst the least userfriendly ever.
Ureshi said:
Huh? No it ain't.
Marat Sar said:
He's the design lead. I'd rather listen to him than to Todd or Pete. You just have to kind of...avoid the subject of little old ladies around Emil, before he starts daydreaming about decapitating them and putting their heads on shelves (seriously, this is not the first time he's talked about this).
Marat Sar said:
Uh, no. And who the fuck is Kieron?
The essence of choice and consequence is that your choices have real consequences, not consequences that reset.
I have no idea where this nonsense about "Fallouts did it" is coming from, the Fallouts had a reputation system, if you were vilified somewhere, you couldn't go there without getting shot. Period.
Anarchosyn said:
Dark Brotherhood, not Thief. Some of the more interesting quests in the game, surely, but that's not saying much, they're still not that good.
A 1995 film starring Dustin Hoffman said:
Where's the tattoos anyway?
A 1995 film starring Dustin Hoffman said:
Uh yeah...based on?
I'm sorry, but I've heard these "hey this is a way it would make sense Bethesda didn't screw it up" arguments before. Yet somehow even a slightly more logical method (and Tornado's isn't water-tights either) never makes it into Bethesda's game, and it's usually the stupidest version that's true.[/quote]
@Brother None: Like the little Dustin Hoffman crack.
Yeah, I don't know what's up with the slaves, but mentioning the moment with the slave collar got my hopes up. I know that's not a good thing to do.
As for the comment about the 24 hours, as I said, it's not a confirmed thing, but it was really logical for once. I mean...taking from what we do know, (correct me if I'm wrong) you walk into Megaton, blast a few people, tick everyone off then run away. 24 hours they 'forgive you'. But...Beth really likes that Karma system, so in blasting a bunch of innocent people, your karma is going to take a general hit, right? So wouldn't that at least mean that walking back into town (or any town) would give you some bad reactions to your sh*tty Karma? I don't know about all of the store prices and stuff, but it would be nice if at least the reactions are not so friendly, letting you come back into town or not. As long as both of those elements are in the game, it makes sense.
I think the major speculative aspect of that is can your karma get so low that some towns, like ones you've nailed, just up and go after you at the drop of a hat. Probably not, but just a thought.
Yeah, I don't know what's up with the slaves, but mentioning the moment with the slave collar got my hopes up. I know that's not a good thing to do.
As for the comment about the 24 hours, as I said, it's not a confirmed thing, but it was really logical for once. I mean...taking from what we do know, (correct me if I'm wrong) you walk into Megaton, blast a few people, tick everyone off then run away. 24 hours they 'forgive you'. But...Beth really likes that Karma system, so in blasting a bunch of innocent people, your karma is going to take a general hit, right? So wouldn't that at least mean that walking back into town (or any town) would give you some bad reactions to your sh*tty Karma? I don't know about all of the store prices and stuff, but it would be nice if at least the reactions are not so friendly, letting you come back into town or not. As long as both of those elements are in the game, it makes sense.
I think the major speculative aspect of that is can your karma get so low that some towns, like ones you've nailed, just up and go after you at the drop of a hat. Probably not, but just a thought.
beverageleverage
It Wandered In From the Wastes
This idea is nothing if not the opposite of logical, but it is likely better than what you will see in Fallout 3 since you are basing it on your own wishful thinking, trying to make sense of such a terrible "reputation system" that does everything in its power to forget what the player has done.Outbreak said: