Fallout 3: Gathering Good Karma

[Ureshi]

One thing that I find disgusting is how non-permanent karma is. It seems to me that you'll be able to do every quest in the game that doesn't involve killing quest important characters simply by raising or lowering your karma in easily repeatable ways. Shows a complete lack of understanding of choices and consequences.

True, mmm it smells like Oblivion....

 

[Ausir]

One thing that I find disgusting is how non-permanent karma is. It seems to me that you'll be able to do every quest in the game that doesn't involve killing quest important characters simply by raising or lowering your karma in easily repeatable ways. Shows a complete lack of understanding of choices and consequences.

Which is part of why Karma should be scrapped altogether and divided into a number of town (that was already somewhat implemented in FO2), and faction reputations, as well as some general reputations like e.g. whether you're seen as loyal (this is implemented in AoD).

 

[UncannyGarlic]

As far as the video goes, I personally thought most of what they had in there was good except for the still missing logic behind how the Regulators know where the fingers come from, and I'm another who has trouble playing anything other than good, although I tend to lean heavily neutral. The bounty hunters, etc. were all cool as well. I know there are things in this game that could have obviously been done better, but I still believe it will be very good, IMHO.

As far as the good & evil discussion, besides a reputation system, I am confused, respectfully, as to what some of you want. It seems to me that you can play any alignment seen in a pen & paper RPG, from principled to selfish to miscreant to aberrant. I've never asked for anything more from a game's choices than that. Maybe I'm missing something. Don't really know what's wrong with helping a church either. I'm sure it's just one kind thing you can do if a pool of many, both good and bad.

And that 'collecting fingers game' comment by Todd just reinforced my thought that much of the game is still pretty new to a lot of them; coming from different departments. Maybe I'm wrong there, but that's the vibe I get. I will say I thought they both sounded more relatable in this video.

Alignment systems in RPGs are almost always a pain and tend to restrictive and damaging to varried roleplay rather than helpful. They work better in PnP systems since you have a human GM who can react dynamically and appropriately but in a videogame, that's yet to happen.

One thing that I find disgusting is how non-permanent karma is. It seems to me that you'll be able to do every quest in the game that doesn't involve killing quest important characters simply by raising or lowering your karma in easily repeatable ways. Shows a complete lack of understanding of choices and consequences.

Which is part of why Karma should be scrapped altogether and divided into a number of town (that was already somewhat implemented in FO2), and faction reputations, as well as some general reputations like e.g. whether you're seen as loyal (this is implemented in AoD).

Agreed.

 

[Brother None]

How is that typical?

It is typical lazy design to just throw the same reward at both paths, essentially negating "choice" and "consequence".

 

[reticulate]

I like the sound of the bounty hunter/mercenary mechanic. Makes the whole good/bad choice a little less just about karma.

I also find the concept of a 'base' or house somewhere pretty intriguing. I know it's an Elder Scrolls concept but it's not a stupid one to transplant to Fallout. Everyone else in the wasteland has a bed somewhere, why not you? Besides which, I like having some more tangible rewards for my actions beyond exp and a bit of cash.

Hunting miscreants for the Regulators sounds like fun too

 

[Outbreak]

Thanks for the response, UncannyGarlic. I am personally OK with what they are doing with F3, but I will agree that the system you and Ausir are talking about would be much better and more dynamic.

@Brother None: thanks for answering that question, cause I was wondering that too. Consequence is also what they are missing with the dissolving of traits, among other things. I agree that there are a few too many things here (especially in the perks) where developers seemed to simply say, "I wanna do this!" and then did it without further thought, in turn ditching any negatives that would normally be brought on by certain items. Some of them are even starting to feel like cheats.

 

[Mrxknown]

Is it just me or does the bounty hunter/mercs thing sound like the Dark brotherhood assassins from Morrowind?

I'd like to see less transplanted code from TES and more fallout-centered ideas.....wishful thinking

 

[mulaalia]

Fallout 3=Fable+KOTOR+Oblivion;and these people actually call themselves Fallout "fanatics";they changed everything from gameplay mechanics to perspective not to mention raping fallout factions and canon by creating BOS the Saintly Order of self-sacrificing holy warriors and rising Enclave from the dead.I would also like to send my greetings to NMA admins,members... for keeping this valuable source of information alive,from a true fan of the turn-based Fallout

 

[Bolocko]

Yeah on Bethesda's narrow idea of the karma system, but the Home factor doesn't bother me much since I made my own headquarters in each of the first two games. With FO1, I would often clean out the raider camp and store stuff there, maybe relocating to the BoS locker rooms later on. In FO2.... well, I don't quite recall where I'd shack up in FO2, but the car had a nice trunk for such things. Bethesda is essentially sanctioning this practice, although I'd much rather be able to designate various areas of my own choosing as home spaces than having one or two specific locales selected by BS.

 

[EnglishMuffin]

Well, so far I have gathered that killing is an evil act and will lower karma, whereas everything else seems like it will raise karma. So with this lawbringer perk wouldn't it lower your karma to kill the person and then raise it back up when you turn in the finger?

Is everything that involves bad karma related to killing things somehow? Being an assassin and even blowing up megaton.

Anyone else think that 'Critical Hit' sounds better than 'Critical Strike'?

 

[mulaalia]

Yea F1 BOS lockers,F2 car trunk,but I never refereed to these places as"my crib" I always had a feeling that i am wandering;and when it comes to Fallout 3 morality I am guessing it's something like Overlord,Fable

 

[radnan]

I'm not sure its a good thing to be constantly notified of your karma going up and down - its a bit .. obvious and turns it into just another grind/scavanger hunt to bump it up - i didnt even notice karma on my first play through Fallout 1 up until the end.

Also i realise i'm going off like a broken record with this but the Vault Boy face and expression next to .. Critical Strike on Ghoul is annoying me.... they're making me dislike the vault boy

 

[Outbreak]

It's not Vault Boy's fault! He can't help who he's been sold to!

 

[mulaalia]

poor Vault Boy from a symbol of a loved franchise to an unwilling undead prostitute of a money-grabbing corporation

 

[Casual Gamer]

"So the game really changes to this "collect people's fingers"-game and then, you get more powerful...that way."
Todd, you never cease to amaze me

She let me keep the loot and also rewarded me with a food sanitizer as a reward – a helpful item for removing the radiation from ruined edible items scattered throughout the world. At any point I could've lied to the woman about my quest and asked for a reward without putting in the work, but I know for a fact that this nefarious behavior would not have gotten me the useful food sanitizer.

This is so stupid. How the hell could that woman know if you lied to him. This is not how Fallout works. In Fallout, you would still get the food sanitizer, but lose some Karma.

She would know if you lied to HER because he clearly states that he offered her some of the food he found in the market (which he wouldn't have if he had been lying). This is exactly the kind of detail you miss when you filter everything through blind rage.

 

[PaladinHeart]

Edit: Also that mole rat crippled head info up top was funny, the thing is missing the whole head and it is only crippled?

I hadn't really paid any attention to your comment about that until I read the thing about vault boy's face, and then I had to go back and recheck the screens. I hadn't even noticed before! Yeah that is one ugly vault boy.

But anyways.. "molerat's head is crippled" err.. I should hope so. Then again, how can something be crippled if it's completely gone? Is it possible to give them first aid after you dismember a part and get it to grow back?

Or, better yet, give them first aid and then watch in horror as they walk around with a missing head and limbs as though nothing is wrong.

 

[Outbreak]

Haha, I don't think Vault Boy looks THAT bad, but I can't help but say he looks like he got a little wasted before commenting on the player's exploits. I think I would have gone with the more 'wicked grin and crazy look in his eye' version. Do we happen to know if this is the same artist BTW, or is someone else using the likeness? I think most of the others looked pretty good. In fact, I was really happy with a lot of the promotional material in general.

 

[mulaalia]

In Fallout 3 you can be good and than you can go on a killing spree and become evil...but than you can redeem yourself by saying "sorry,these things happen" to the family of the victims and become good again.... haaaahaa what a load of shit,their is a psychiatric term for this and it is called psychopathy

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Is everything that involves bad karma related to killing things somehow? Being an assassin and even blowing up megaton.

I was wondering the same thing...

She would know if you lied to HER because he clearly states that he offered her some of the food he found in the market (which he wouldn't have if he had been lying). This is exactly the kind of detail you miss when you filter everything through blind rage.

Oh, so I guess all food in the world comes from Super Duper Mart? Thanks for the info.

 

[Mad Mantis]

Maybe I'm missing something. Don't really know what's wrong with helping a church either. I'm sure it's just one kind thing you can do if a pool of many, both good and bad.

What is wrong with it is that ignores the fact that the world is not a collection of good and evil factions.

Lets take a look at Fallout. The only church in that game were the Children of the Cathedral. While most of them might believe they were doing good they were also a tool for the master in converting people to supermutants. They were both good and bad although most people will think of them as evil.
Now lets take a look at the Brotherhood of Steel. They traded with the Hub and in doing so helped the wasteland communities get back on their feet. They even got involved in the fight against the supermutants. On the other hand they were hoarding technology and suppressing it. Refusing to help to the best of their abilities. Most people will think of the BoS as a good faction.

Things in Fallout weren't black and white. All sides could be both good and evil depending on how you looked at them and what you thought was more important. Bethesda completely misses this with their ideas. A completely altruistic church doesn’t work in the grim realities of a Fallout setting.

If you share some of the precious liquid you'll get a good karma boost and this can be done over and over again. Bethesda wanted players to have the ability to switch sides whenever they choose or even be ambiguous.

This is stupid. They purposefully built in an exploit mechanism because they do not want to bother the player with consequences? What good is that bloody karma scale if I can change the value so far positive or negative as I desire? It makes the entire mechanic useless. Even worse than that is the fact that the neutral path is now officially the path of zero karma.

The change of scenery is nice but the real advantage to this property is the ability to outfit a house with an infirmary, jukebox, laboratory, cola machine, and workbench.

The house as a base doesn’t sit too well with me since you are supposed to get this feeling of wandering. However since I’ll still be looking for a place to stash my munchkin loot I’ll overlook it.

What I am bothered by is the fact that they are doing everything in their power to make this house as convenient as possible. They are using it as a way to avoid all the negatives in their world. You can get clean non-radiated drinking water. Clean non-radiated food. There goes the choice between spending valuable resources or getting irradiated. An infirmary for easy healing and probably things like stimpaks. There goes the need to ration your supplies. Laboratory for things like easy chems. A distinct battle advantage since there are no negatives to drugs. A workbench to keep all weapons in tiptop shape. A freaking cola machine. Since we know that drinking cola gives you a free bottle cap it is almost like having a money tree in your house. This entire house is one giant cheat.

Let's hope next week is "Gathering Bad Karma".

No need to wait for next week. You can just check back tomorrow.

As IGN's resident good Samaritan I played six hours of Fallout as a kind and giving person. IGN Xbox's Erik Brudvig took the opposite approach and will describe his horrible behavior in tomorrow's feature.