Fallout 3 vs. Oblivion

[Borathian]

Just Another Mod?
In order to distance itself from Oblivion, Fallout 3 needs to move away from the swords and sorcery combat engine; it needs to be more than just a well designed Oblivion mod – and it may just be doing this via V.A.T.S. (Vault-Tec Assisted Targeting System), a combat system that will allow the player to choose moments in the game where they can pause the fighting, make targeted conflict decisions and queue up attacks.

I fail to see how the addition of V.A.T.S. suddenly and miraculously changes how the entire combat system works, especially when apparently it is far more effective to simply shoot/slash he fuck out of your enemies till they die, something very reminiscent of Oblivion.

 

[Moving Target]

Well, it miraculously changes combat because BULLET TIME FTW!!!

Just that simple, really- it's soooo obvious that bodies exploding and parts being ripped to shreds is hilarious and entertaining.... why, you'd be insane NOT to want constant slo-mo shots.

Unless they're in the groin. Groin shots, apparently, aren't funny. At least according to Zen-seda.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

I fail to see how the addition of V.A.T.S. suddenly and miraculously changes how the entire combat system works

Yea verily, there's no profundity to it.

It's a pause.

Now stand back and watch as we're innundated with a cacophony of ass-kissery claiming that Bethesda is genius for such innovation.

A pause mind you.

A pause is a pause. Either you can pause and do something (BG) or you pause and can't (Mario Brothers). But that's all it is.

The worst part is, it's for shots only. No scrambling, crawling, ducking, changing weapons, reloading, healing, checking inventory all that stuff that's called ummmm, I forget

Tactics?

Seriously how can you have any strategy when you can't move or reposition? Movement and positioning are the entire basis of strategy.

It's one thing if you're going to pander to the GTA/Oblivion crowd. But how does paused shot mode where you stand still an improvement over TB to that crowd?

Oh yeah, because of the lack of movement in VATS, they had to nerf adjacent enemy attacks, because it gets annoying when your lack of of strategy results in you getting bum rushed.
Let them have cake! Can't let our console kiddies actually face a fucking challenge. Let's "do what we do best", put training wheels on our corporate McRPG, thus robbing the player of getting his ass kicked once in a while for using half-assed tactics. Never had this problem with before with a 'birds eye view" did we? I have to think nerfing adjacent enemy attacks this way was totally unforseen which only proves that these guys are flying blind. They have no overriding design philosophy, they've admitted as much time and again.
Bush league.



woah - felt like I channeled Rosh for a minute there

 

[Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude]

Except we already know how radiation works in Fallout. Huge does of radiation in best cases kills you, in worst cases- turns you into a ghoul.

You're forgetting Rad-X and RadAway. The former a mystical pill that rendered you immune to radiation, and the latter a simple IV that removed all radiation from your body. Fallout's radiation was hardly lethal.

Also: How can you say that you already know how radiation works in Fallout? Have you found a radioactive toilet to drink out of in Fo1/2 to test your theory that radioactive water cannot indeed give a +str bonus?

Yet a STR+ increase from "eating" a radioactive object?

I don't see how this is any more far fetched than eating a piece of a giant talking stone head of the vault dweller... and getting +stats.

I'm not pushing hardcore realism here, but there has to be a line drawn at some point. The idea is not only moronic, absurd and extremely unoriginal, it has also nothing to do with Fallout's sci-fi elements that may have been unrealistic but were based on actual scientific assumptions and common mainstream beliefs and fears of the early 50s.

Eating rocks that magically boost stats fits in with scientific assumptions and mainstream beliefs of the 50s?

 

[Ranne]

Eating rocks? I'm pretty sure my Fallout experience didn't include that one. Let me check...

Ah, Sacred head of the Vault Dweller:
"The Talking Head is a Fallout 2 special encounter. If you talk to him he says, that you are not the Chosen one, and if you pluck up the time and energy to tell him you are for about a thousand times (actually your Character gets the clue pretty quick so like 5 repeats will do) you get a Monument Chunk as a reward."..."The chunk can be used to temporarily grant your character the following bonuses: Strength +3, Agility +3, Damage Resistance +50".

Yes, yes, this is exactly like making radiation poisoning synonymous with anabolic steroids. Well argued.

As for "X-Rad" (known to most of us as Rad-X) and RadAway, here's a news extract for you:

"The DoD's Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is commissioning a nine-month study by Rice University chemists and investigators at the Texas Medical Center to "determine whether a new drug based on carbon nanotubes can help prevent people from dying of acute radiation injury following radiation exposure."
The drug, based on carbon nanotubes and two common food preservatives, has already shown huge promise in reducing the effects of radiation exposure"
http://www.google.com/search?q="nanovector+trojan+horses

Nanotubes aside, there's a thing called Potassium Iodide that you can easily buy in any pharmacy. It's been approved by the FDA for use as an "anti-radiation pill" decades ago.

Oh, it's nice to see one person who approves of Bethesda's "now you can drink water out of toilets! design decision. Now I know what to make of you.

 

[ookami]

Fallout's radiation was hardly lethal.

I really don't think "that which does not kill me makes me stronger" has much application there, though.

Have you found a radioactive toilet to drink out of in Fo1/2 to test your theory that radioactive water cannot indeed give a +str bonus?

No, because Black Isle was wise enough not to stick junk like the magical toilet spring of healing into those games. Of course, that's with the exception of some things that aren't considered canonical.

Hey, if Bethesda declares all toilet drinking and radioactive object eating to simply be limited to special encounter type of scenarios and not as some game mechanic that pops up regularly, no problem I guess. But I don't get the feeling that that's the case here.

It's not a realism push so much as a plausibility push in terms of Fallout's own versimilitude.

 

[Bad_Karma]

Just a point about this 'VATS its pause, but you can't go into the inventory' - thing.

You know that in Oblivion everytime you open the Inventory the game pauses? - So just a simple question, did Beth ever told us, that this was different in Fallout 3 ?
So i really would wait and see what they will do about going into the inventroy and so on.

 

[Kyuu]

You're forgetting Rad-X and RadAway. The former a mystical pill that rendered you immune to radiation, and the latter a simple IV that removed all radiation from your body. Fallout's radiation was hardly lethal.

I was going to point out the Potassium Iodide thing (though I didn't even know about the nanotube thing, interesting stuff), but Ranne beat me to it it seems. "Mystical pill" indeed.

I don't see how this is any more far fetched than eating a piece of a giant talking stone head of the vault dweller... and getting +stats.

First there's the obvious points that 1) it's a single special encounter, not a feature of the game, and 2) a lot of people believe that FO2's special encounters, among other things, went a little too far with the "cheese" factor, and I'd agree (even though I rather enjoy the monument encounter). So saying "hey, Fallout 2 did it, you can't complain" isn't going to get you real far. Not absolutely everything in FO1/2 is pure gold. Then, you seem to be assuming that when you used something in your inventory in FO1/2, you ate it. Of course, I never really thought that I was eating my stimpacks. Using something doesn't equate to eating. Maybe the Chosen One rubbed it and got a "mystical enchantment" out of it, or perhaps it was really a big rock of cocaine and s/he ground it into a powder and snorted it. Who knows.

 

[Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude]

The idea is not only moronic, absurd and extremely unoriginal, it has also nothing to do with Fallout's sci-fi elements that may have been unrealistic but were based on actual scientific assumptions and common mainstream beliefs and fears of the early 50s.

"The DoD's Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is commissioning a nine-month study by Rice University chemists and investigators at the Texas Medical Center to "determine whether a new drug based on carbon nanotubes can help prevent people from dying of acute radiation injury following radiation exposure."
The drug, based on carbon nanotubes and two common food preservatives, has already shown huge promise in reducing the effects of radiation exposure"
http://www.google.com/search?q="nanovector+trojan+horses

Nanotubes aside, there's a thing called Potassium Iodide that you can easily buy in any pharmacy. It's been approved by the FDA for use as an "anti-radiation pill" decades ago.

Hmm... Contradicting ourselves aren't we?

Oh, it's nice to see one person who approves of Bethesda's "now you can drink water out of toilets! design decision. Now I know what to make of you.

Fail troll is fail.

 

[Black]

Fallout's radiation was hardly lethal.

Really? Because my friend who played FO1 and went to the Glow without any RadAways was pretty surprised. He didn't get +1 strength after leaving the Glow, he died.

 

[Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude]

Really? Because my friend who played FO1 and went to the Glow without any RadAways was pretty surprised. He didn't get +1 strength after leaving the Glow, he died.

Do you deliberately skip over segments of posts to take a quote out of context, or is it unintentional? Either way, I'll help you along:

You're forgetting Rad-X and RadAway. The former a mystical pill that rendered you immune to radiation, and the latter a simple IV that removed all radiation from your body. Fallout's radiation was hardly lethal.

Obviously if you go out of your way to do nothing about the radiation, you're going to die. The same as if you entered combat with a rat and sat there spamming the 'End Turn' button while it slowly killed you. Does that make rats an ultra-deadly threat? No, just like radiation they are easily dealt with.



Back on topic: I don't know about you guys, but the fact that drinking radioactive water might give you a temporary strength boost is pretty fucking far down on my list of concerns about Fo3, and really doesn't negatively impact gameplay in the slightest.

Hell, making a perk that allowed you to gain temporary stat bonuses from drinking the water would fit perfectly with the series. You're just nitpicking an extremely trivial element of a game with much greater problems.

 

[Black]

Do you deliberately skip over segments of posts to take a quote out of context, or is it unintentional? Either way, I'll help you along:

RadAways and Rad-Xs have nothing to do with HOW radiation works in Fallout. It kills or turns you into a ghoul. No superpowers.

Obviously if you go out of your way to do nothing about the radiation, you're going to die.

Yeah, see, you won't get +1 Strength. No matter how many times you get lethal dose. One more time, radiation in Fallout isn't some USA comic radioactive crap that gives you superpowers and a fancy costume.

Also: How can you say that you already know how radiation works in Fallout?

Fail troll is fail.

 

[Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude]

Yeah, see, you won't get +1 Strength. No matter how many times you get lethal dose. One more time, radiation in Fallout isn't some USA comic radioactive crap that gives you superpowers and a fancy costume.

One could argue that since ghouls can live for hundreds of years, Fallout's radiation is indeed comic crap that gives you superpowers.


Again, you're going out of your way to nitpick an extremely insignificant element of the game.

 

[Ranne]

Hmm... Contradicting ourselves aren't we?

How was I contradicting myself, exactly? Sorry, pal, but in addition to being poorly informed, you don't seem to make any sense whatsoever.

Oh, and to whole this radiation nonsense you're still pushing, just so you know, rapid evolutionary radiation-caused hereditary mutations of complex organisms (i.e. "new species" and such) were commonly believed to be plausible back in the 50s. Mind you, the structure of DNA was only discovered in 1953, so it was a hell of a lot guessing at that point. Using radioactive mutations and anti-radiation pills in the context of "actual scientific assumptions and common mainstream beliefs and fears of the early 50s" is perfectly normal and has absolutely nothing in common with the ridiculous notion of using ionizing radiation as a performance enhancing drug.

Just so you learn a bit, these are the symptoms of radiation poisoning. As you can see, Spiderman-like superpowers and sudden boosts of strength did not make the list.

* Nausea and vomiting
* Diarrhea
* Skin burns (redness, blistering)
* Weakness, fatigue, exhaustion, fainting
* Dehydration
* Inflammation of exposed areas (redness, tenderness, swelling, bleeding)
* Hair loss
* Ulceration of the oral mucosa
* Ulceration of the esophagus, stomach or intestines
* Vomiting blood
* Bloody stool
* Bleeding from the nose, mouth, gums, and rectum
* Bruising
* Sloughing of skin
* Open sores on the skin
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000026.htm

Now why don't you go eat a box of rat poison for an intelligence increase

 

[Per]

Now why don't you go eat a box of rat poison for an intelligence increase

This is uncalled for. Keep it civil or strikes will be handed out.

 

[Ranne]

Sorry. Though I was actually making a point. Radiation is no less dangerous than rat poison and nobody in their right mind would seriously suggest eating rat poison for increasing strength, intelligence, or any other stat, even in a video game.

 

[Kyuu]

... and nobody in their right mind would seriously suggest eating rat poison for increasing strength, intelligence, or any other stat, even in a video game.

Here I'd have to actually disagree with you. Radiation - whether from cosmic rays, nuclear waste, or whatever - has been fodder for granting increased intelligence, strength, and every type of superhuman ability imaginable in pulp literature and comics ever since radiation was introduced into the public consciousness. I'm quite sure that it has been used in video games before also for similar effect.

Now as for whether or not a stat increase from radiation belongs in the Fallout universe, I'd have to say no. While radiation wasn't a huge concern a lot of the time, getting large doses of radiation was a bad thing and certainly didn't help you. The Glow, where you had to come prepared with a large of supply of anti-radiation drugs or a suit of Power Armor if you didn't want to die from radiation, is the prime example, of course.

Again, you're going out of your way to nitpick an extremely insignificant element of the game.

While it certainly is insignificant next to some of the other criticisms that can be levied at Beth's F3, no one is going out of their way to nitpick it. People saw it and made a comment about it. It looks more like you're going out of your way to defend the "insignificant element" and people continue to rebuke you.

 

[Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude]

While it certainly is insignificant next to some of the other criticisms that can be levied at Beth's F3, no one is going out of their way to nitpick it.

The amount of rabid "OMG RADIO-ATION DUSNT GIV U SUPERPOWERS IN REEL LYFE LOL!!" drivel being spewed says otherwise.

People saw it and made a comment about it. It looks more like you're going out of your way to defend the "insignificant element" and people continue to rebuke you.

It is more like a couple of angry users looking for something to complain about; and attempting to nitpick the realism about one element of the series, while simultaneously attempting to justify and explain away other completely "out there" sci-fi elements.

Oh, and to whole this radiation nonsense you're still pushing, just so you know, rapid evolutionary radiation-caused hereditary mutations of complex organisms (i.e. "new species" and such) were commonly believed to be plausible back in the 50s. Mind you, the structure of DNA was only discovered in 1953, so it was a hell of a lot guessing at that point. Using radioactive mutations and anti-radiation pills in the context of "actual scientific assumptions and common mainstream beliefs and fears of the early 50s" is perfectly normal and has absolutely nothing in common with the ridiculous notion of using ionizing radiation as a performance enhancing drug.

Just so you learn a bit, these are the symptoms of radiation poisoning. As you can see, Spiderman-like superpowers and sudden boosts of strength did not make the list.

* Nausea and vomiting
* Diarrhea
* Skin burns (redness, blistering)
* Weakness, fatigue, exhaustion, fainting
* Dehydration
* Inflammation of exposed areas (redness, tenderness, swelling, bleeding)
* Hair loss
* Ulceration of the oral mucosa
* Ulceration of the esophagus, stomach or intestines
* Vomiting blood
* Bloody stool
* Bleeding from the nose, mouth, gums, and rectum
* Bruising
* Sloughing of skin
* Open sores on the skin
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000026.htm

Again, this has gone right over your head. You're selectively applying real-world logic to the highly unrealistic sci-fi Fallout universe.

In the end; if beth decides to make drinking radioactive water turn you into David-Fucking-Copperfield, then it will indeed be canon in the Fallout universe... which means this entire discussion is moot.

 

[Ausir]

One could argue that since ghouls can live for hundreds of years, Fallout's radiation is indeed comic crap that gives you superpowers.

Well, unless you prefer the FEV origin of ghouls.

 

[Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude]

Well both of the accepted theories involve radiation.

Cain : Radiation

Taylor : FEV + Radiation