Fallout 4: The Nature of Generic Bad Dudes

[Jubal Quintus]

Uhh no. In Fallout 2, the control vaults only served a use for the Enclave to see how people would develop naturally, without any sort of "test" being applied to them.

Even in Fallout 2, the control vaults only existed for information gathering purposes, and to serve as a stock of pure humans for any Enclave experiments.

They were not made to "save" anyone. The Enclave didn't care about the lives of anyone but themselves.

I'm not sure you're really reading what I'm saying. I'll do bullet points.

- 1 - In Fallout 1 the Vaults are strictly big ass bomb shelters, nothing more or less.
- 2 - Fallout 2 first introduces the idea of the Vaults also performing social experiments.
- 3 - Fallout 3 goes full retard with it and has the Gary Vault among other.
- 4 - New Vegas attempts to build a middle ground from Fallout 2 and Fallout 3 with drastic experiments that are more or less grounded.
- 5 - Fallout 4, I have no idea, because I haven't played enough of it to find out.

So, in the beginning (your words) meaning Fallout 1, the vaults were absolutely meant to save people. It was only later on that it was retconned.

 

[CerberusGate]

Hurr durr... Human evolution...

Did... you actually go there? So humans have somehow evolved to become tolerant of radiation? Even when radiation is still just as harmful to humans? I know you must worship 4 at this point but are you actually being serious when you say things like that? I'm no geneticist but I doubt the human genome could adapt and create a gene that makes the body inherently immune to radiation. The idea of humans evolving to handle radiation without any actual effects (perhaps their insanity is the effect but that just seems more like human stupidity to me):

Spoiler

Hurr durr... Enclave experiments

Or simply rather, the Vaults were meant to save people but were retconned into being social experiments with only a small number of vaults being experiments. A mistake from Black Isle that Bethesda worsened even further by making every Vault into some zany experiment, something Obsidian tried to remedy with Vaults like Vault 11. I mean, why else would the Control Vaults be given GECKs to allow for surface life with no experimentation and - oh wait!

To begin with, yes the Vaults absolutely were meant to save people. It wasn't until Fo2 that they started to retcon the vaults as some sort of social experiment thing and even then it was subtle. The Vaults would both save people and carry out little tests. It was later on (and Bethesda especially) that turned it up to 11 and made the Vaults lollercaust zones of over-the-topness.

Even Obsidian's social experiments were far more subtle and logical than Bethesda's zaniness. I mean things like Vault 11 are social experiments that would be tested since it determines human behaviour.

Spoiler

Seeing whether human morality would outweigh self-preservation is a sensible experiment though in 11's case, it ended in disaster.

Sure, but not all vaults got a GECK, and not all the GECKs worked.

The one control Vault in New Vegas was trashed by the Fiends. If they had a GECK (a normal one from 2 and not the one from 3), it probably would have been destroyed.

 

[0wing]

- 5 - Fallout 4, I have no idea, because I haven't played enough of it to find out.

A middle ground between 3 and Vegas. Don't ask.
And 4 actually have a working and prospering Vault 81 in it.
Vault Workshop feature, well, a some sort of futuristic device which is still not GECK that let you build stuff.

 

[Greed]

In Vegas it's no longer needed to show them or talk about them, it's already brave new world.
The boston is whole different story, for a player now playing a civilization restorer for some reason.

Except, as part of the backstory for New Vegas, VEgas itself was nothing but a tribal infested ruin until House rallied the three families just something like 8-9 years before the game began.

So why did no one use any of the GECKs to try to start a civilization before then?

Hell, that just leads into a bigger question... why is it that the people of both the east and west coast, which got bombed far harder then the mojave, could establish functional towns 100+ years ago, but the people of the mojave couldn't despite not being directly hit at all?

 

[0wing]

So why did no one use any of the GECKs to try to start a civilization before then?

I said they don't? I said it's irrelevant now by the time FNV takes place in.

Hell, that just leads into a bigger question... why is it that the people of both the east and west coast, which got bombed far harder then the mojave, could establish functional towns 100+ years ago, but the people of the mojave couldn't despite not being directly hit at all?

There aren't any working societies in New Vegas? Are you high, mate?

 

[Greed]

I said they don't? I said it's irrelevant now by the time FNV takes place in.

Except its not, in fact, its incredibly relevant because it creates an absolutely massive black hole in the region's backstory.

Even with Vegas's development, a GECK would be a godsend of a device that could give House, or the NCR, farm ore leverage in controlling the region.

 

[Greed]

Or simply rather, the Vaults were meant to save people but were retconned into being social experiments with only a small number of vaults being experiments. A mistake from Black Isle that Bethesda worsened even further by making every Vault into some zany experiment, something Obsidian tried to remedy with Vaults like Vault 11. I mean, why else would the Control Vaults be given GECKs to allow for surface life with no experimentation and - oh wait!

The only Vaults known to be given GECKs are
-Vault 8(a control Vault)
-Vault 15(not a control Vault)
-Vault 87(Also not a control Vault)
On the other hand, the only two other control Vaults known in lore(Vaults 11 and 76) didn't have a GECK.

So, based on all lore, the distribution of GECKs was seemingly 100% random

 

[0wing]

Even with Vegas's development, a GECK would be a godsend of a device that could give House, or the NCR, farm ore leverage in controlling the region.

You still think GECKs is relevant in 23rd century? By the time of 2 there's only two GECKs left in the entire state, one of which was in Oil Rig. Do the interpolation math yourself, you're not a little kid.

 

[a721402]

Isn't double post against the rule here?

 

[Greed]

You still think GECKs is relevant in 23rd century? By the time of 2 there's only two GECKs left in the entire state, one of which was in Oil Rig. Do the interpolation math yourself, you're not a little kid.

Are you honestly suggesting that because Fallout 2 only showed two, those were the only two left in the state?

 

[Jubal Quintus]

And the people who are like that are praised for being paragons of virtue exactly because normal people are not like that.

A quick google search could bring up any number of reports and studies about humans are naturally and intrinsically selfish. Its a basic biological instinct stemming from the self preservation mechanism, and refined for most of early human history having humans being unable to support any sort of community beyond themselves and their immediately family, which has made everyone being "the enemy" an instinctual reflex.

Hell, one of the core tenants of Fallout is all about this very thing.

The trouble is, you aren't talking about human nature, you specifically said "human history." You chose your words, now you can either admit an error and recast the discussion about human nature or you can defend what you said. Human beings are animals and as such we absolutely have a self-preservation instinct however, we also have a vast and advanced intellect that affords us the ability to rationalize beyond ourselves which is why human history is filled with the trend of individuals choosing the community over themselves. Your argument seems to be more about capitalist/post-capitalist societies where people all look out for themselves above all else, but in the larger span of human history people strive for the betterment of their community. This is an undeniable fact.

 

[Millim]

I keep hearing all this talk of Fallout 4 but I don't know about a 4. I would have it if it existed.
You must mean New Vegas right? I thought we establishedthat was fallout 3 and the game titled Fallout 3 was a spin off called Fallout DC.

Well anyway, there is no officially titled Fallout 4. There may never be. But we can dream.

Say, is anyone else looking forward to Wasteland 3?

 

[0wing]

Are you honestly suggesting that because Fallout 2 only showed two, those were the only two left in the state?

I'm trying to hammer in your head one simple thought - there's no reason for Boston not to have GECK.
Plus, the Fallout 2 not only shown but also told that yes, they all expired.

 

[Greed]

The trouble is, you aren't talking about human nature, you specifically said "human history." You chose your words, now you can either admit an error and recast the discussion about human nature or you can defend what you said. Human beings are animals and as such we absolutely have a self-preservation instinct however, we also have a vast and advanced intellect that affords us the ability to rationalize beyond ourselves which is why human history is filled with the trend of individuals choosing the community over themselves. Your argument seems to be more about capitalist/post-capitalist societies where people all look out for themselves above all else, but in the larger span of human history people strive for the betterment of their community. This is an undeniable fact.

Human history is made by the human race, and the human race is defined by human nature.

Stop trying to play the semantics card, its disingenuous.

I'm trying to hammer in your head one simple thought - there's no reason for Boston not to have GECK.

Sure there is.

None of the Vaults there were made to save anyone, so there was no need to ship one there.

 

[CerberusGate]

Except, as part of the backstory for New Vegas, VEgas itself was nothing but a tribal infested ruin until House rallied the three families just something like 8-9 years before the game began.

So why did no one use any of the GECKs to try to start a civilization before then?

No need for a GECK. The land was still fertile and purification was not an issue. As for leverage, it would not amount to much aside from the power supply of a normal GECK since enough time has passed for non-hit regions to recover. There would be NO point to even have a GECK.

Hell, that just leads into a bigger question... why is it that the people of both the east and west coast, which got bombed far harder then the mojave, could establish functional towns 100+ years ago, but the people of the mojave couldn't despite not being hit at all?

Tribals do amount to some form of civilisation. I imagine they lived in villages and even small towns within Vegas that waged war against each other until House finally decided to reveal himself to the world at large.

Plus there would be no need to build new functional towns. Many of Vegas's buildings survived so why waste time building 'functional towns' when there were perfectly fine buildings around?

Isn't double post against the rule here?

IIRC it think it nets a strike from an admin.

Say, is anyone else looking forward to Wasteland 3?

I'm worried about the cinematic approach they are taking but I am hoping to see what kind of stories take place in the colder parts of a post-apocalyptic world.

 

[PipBoyofSteel15]

So glad I was able to strike up a discussion! Hope you guys liked the video, I'll read through everything when I get a chance

 

[0wing]

Sure there is.

The lore said the shipments were. Delivered for real or not is the second thing. And yes, having GECK could bump the immersion sky high regarding build-a-settlement minigame that is so popular in Boston.

 

[Greed]

No need for a GECK. The land was still fertile and purification was not an issue. As for leverage, it would not amount to much aside from the power supply of a normal GECK since enough time has passed for non-hit regions to recover. There would be NO point to even have a GECK.

Tribals do amount to some form of civilisation. I imagine they lived in villages and even small towns within Vegas that waged war against each other until House finally decided to reveal himself to the world at large.

Plus there would be no need to build new functional towns. Many of Vegas's buildings survived so why waste time building 'functional towns' when there were perfectly fine buildings around?

Which begs the question of why no one in Vegas proper made a farm until the NCR showed up.

According to House the tribals of Vegas were nothing more then nomads wnadering around, occasionally squatting in a ruined building, before moving around again.

A functional town does not need new buildings. Goodsprings is nothing but people living in pre-war buildings, but its still a functional town.

The lore said the shipments were. Delivered for real or not is the second thing. And yes, having GECK could bump the immersion sky high regarding build-a-settlement minigame that is so popular in Boston.

Where is the lore stating Boston got GECKS again?

 

[0wing]

Where is the lore stating Boston got GECKS again?

There's none, that's the point. Ask Mr. Emil for them, not me.

 

[Jubal Quintus]

Human history is made by the human race, and the human race is defined by human nature.

Stop trying to play the semantics card, its disingenuous.

There is absolutely nothing semantic about this. Human history is the story of the triumph of society and culture all of which is only made possible by human beings working together for the greater good. It starts with tribes and family groups and works up from there. Your fantasy about seeing other people as 'the enemy' is a complete fabrication. What you are saying is patently wrong and intellectually dishonest.