Fallout 4: The Nature of Generic Bad Dudes

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by PipBoyofSteel15, Nov 3, 2016.

  1. PipBoyofSteel15

    PipBoyofSteel15 First time out of the vault

    28
    Dec 28, 2015
    Made a video discussing 4's minor factions, and more specifically, their dullness. Hope everyone here enjoys :D
     
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  2. Greed

    Greed Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    318
    Nov 4, 2016
    Well, you got the super mutant part wrong.

    The Institute actually acquired FEV after the war(and nothing suggests it was from Mariposa). The Institute's experiments into FEV were the result of them trying to perfect FEV strains so they could use it as part of the synth project(as synths are made using FEV).

    We also learn from Strong, as well as conversations the super mutants have with themselves, and things they yell at you while attacking, that the super mutants in the Commonwealth region have developed a communist like society, sharing everything among themselves, with nothing really being "owned" by anyone. Their primary goal is to kill humans, partially because they see themselves as a superior species, and partially out of revenge for humans making them.


    Unrelated to the super mutants, we do learn the origins of the Triggermen in Fallout 4. when going to rescue Nick in the main quest, we can overhear a human Triggerman talking to a ghoul Triggerman about how seemingly wrong it is to build a Vault in a subway, since subways are not air tight. The ghoul triggerman respond by pointing out the Vault was likely a con job to keep people on the books, and being paied,while they prepped another site, and mentions that he used to pull this kind of con all the time before the war. The Triggermen, or at least the people who originally founded it, are/were ghouls of pre-war mafia members, who continued their traditions after the war.
     
  3. Morrigan98

    Morrigan98 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    101
    Nov 4, 2016
    Its hard to take anything in this game seriously from the retarded grinding combat system with limited weapons with a million fucking variants (seriously what the fuck?) to the retconing of various important plot points previous established in lore (Jet,Pre War America, Power Armor) I can't understand why anyone (not trying to come off as insulting here) would honestly even bother making sense of this games pathetic attempt at a story.
     
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  4. Greed

    Greed Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    318
    Nov 4, 2016
    http://sugarbombed.com/forums/threads/chris-avellone-interview-part-1.21018/
     
  5. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
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  6. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    And that's incredibly dumb. Why would using a genetic modification virus allow you to make robots. That's just silly.
    "Supermutants fight and not talk, supermutants share with other supermutants" doesn't count as depth. It certainly doesn't explain how every single Supermutant in the entirety of the Commonwealth shares exactly the same culture and values.
    Because the creatures that are presented as generic dumb-dumbs throughout the entire game, are somehow clever enough, to each individually come to the conclusion that they are a superior species, and they want revenge.

    How come you never see any exceptions to the rules? ,Or different groups of Supermutants?, They all seem to have somehow adapted an ideology with little explanation as to where it originated.
    They still feel completely unfleshed out.

    Why do they shoot the moment anyone approaches there base?

    What are there aims?, How do they make money?, How do they gain new members?, ect.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016
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  7. CerberusGate

    CerberusGate I should save my game in a whole new slot

    Jun 6, 2016
    Wait, how does a virus actually facilitate the creation of bio-mechanical beings? The FEV only mutates cells. In fact, synths would look even more conspicuous if they were made with FEV.

    I can theorise some answers:
    1. To live out fantasies of being mafia people in the post-apoc world.
    2. By having one member loot as much stuff as possible before dying as close as possible to their hideout.
    3. By finding ghoul children locked in refrigerators and making them age rapidly through Emil's writing.
     
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  8. Greed

    Greed Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    318
    Nov 4, 2016
    Gen 3 synths aren't robots. They are genetically engineered artificial humans, with a chip implanted in their brains that allows them to be controlled. The "perfected" form of FEV used in their creation is what provides with the the myriad of unusual characteristics they have, such as biological immortality(Gen 3 synths do not age, they do not need to eat or sleep, they are incapable of getting fat or losing weight, and they are very resistant to most diseases), as well as their increased strength, speed, and, in some designed cases, increased intelligence, compared to normal humans.

    That is why they needed Shaun in the first place for his pure DNA. Since radiation corrupted DNA, of course, leads to super mutants. Shaun's pure DNA, mixed in with the "perfected" form of FEV The Institute achieved after decades of testing, resulted in what basically amounts to super mutants, minus the terrible and grotesque physical mutations that come with being a super mutant.
    They don't, which is why we see some break away clans, such as the group led to Far Harbor by the Behemoth named Grun. We also see exceptions in cases like Strong, and Erickson, who aren't totally hostile.

    Most super mutants are borderline crazy due to the sheer pain they experience when transforming, as we learn from Fawkes in Fallout 3, which is why they attack everyone who isn't them.

    Their culture is implied to be programmed into them by the FEV itself. While not directly stated, the similarity between Vault 87 FEV, and Institute FEV, such as the creation of Behemoths, implies they come from the same source. Super Mutants in Fallout 3 will talk about how Fawkes said that some men will come to take away the FEV, which may have resulted from The Institute sending someone, or possibly some Gen 2 synths, to Vault 87 to get the FEV in the past.

    Fallout 3's offical game guide states things like the Super Mutants desire to make more of them comes from either some remnant of human biological instinct, or some programming from the FEV itself. Their entire nature is a result of some bizzare mixture of basic human instincts such as self preservation, and natural egotism, mixed in with the mutating effects of FEV.
    Why wouldn't they? If someone decked out in weapons and armor is walking to your base, and you don't know who they are, and ypu haven't been told that someone should be coming, the logical asnwer is to shoot them before they can attack you. Especially in a place as dangerous as The Commonwealth.

    They make money by moving chems for Marowski, the main drug supplier in Goodneighbor, as we see them do this in quests like Diamond City Blues. They also operate places like the racetrack in East City Downs, and occasionally perform hits for wealthy people like Marowski, and Malcom Latimer.

    And they recruit people in Goodneighbor in the same manner people go to Goodneighbor to hire out people like the Gunners for jobs.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016
  9. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    But that basically destroys the whole point in Synths in the first place.

    If Synths are practically identical to humans, then the whole artificial intelligence debate centered around them basically collapses in on itself.
    The Far Harbor Supermutants are practically identical to the normal supermutants, in that they are generic dumb dumbs who attack on site.

    As for Strong "Me want to find milk of human kindness" is the sole reason he's actually with you and not them.

    Erickson: "I was mutated by the fog of Far Harbor" is probably the dumbest explanation ever, especially considering it's radiation that stops all supermutants from coming out of the vats as super geniuses in the first place
    "I felt physical pain a couple years ago, and now I'm going to kill everyone who isn't me." Quality writing right there.

    And if that's the solution to all this, how come the Mariposa Supermutants were able to blend in with human society.
    What? :wtf:

    Being dipped in a Vat of FEV somehow defines there entire lifestyle and actions?

    So how come the same doesn't apply to Mariposa Supermutants?

    Why would Vault 87 even allow that?

    Who first programmed that culture in to it in the first place?

    That response makes 0 sense.
    If they immediately shoot at people with weapons and armor, that means that they'll shoot anyone who comes near there base, supposing that everyone in the commonwealth is armed to the teeth to avoid fighting the threats of the commonwealth.

    And an organisation with its ties to the mafia, can't honestly shoot every average Joe that comes towards there base. That would just be horrendous business practice, which would lead to nobody actually being able to make any deals with them.
    Ah yes, the racetrack that shoots any newcomers that try and enter it on site.

    I wonder how a racetrack that never accepts new customers keeps its profits going.
    Then how come you can negotiate with the Triggermen?, Talk to them or anything.

    If the Triggermen recruited people in Good neighbor, that would have given Bethesda a perfect chance to allow the players to perhaps negotiate with them, stop them from being immediatly hostile, and allow you to move through the Nick Valentine Vault without having to mow down waves and waves of faceless enemies, but no, obviously Bethesda missed that opportunity, because what good is a game where you actually have a chance to avoid mowing down enemies.
     
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  10. Greed

    Greed Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    318
    Nov 4, 2016
    Not really. As Shaun states when talking to him about it, synths are designed to have near human intelligence, placing emphasis on the word near. They are not designed to be as smart as people, or have human level awareness(except in very rare special cases). They are designed to be just very very smart monkeys. Which is why the Institute constantly asserts that synths don't want freedom, they only think they do because they are confused, and don't understand the emotions they feel.

    The whole point of the argument was that groups like the Railroad believe the Institute have played god, and have made true human level intelligence in synths, and thus synths deserve equal treatment. While the Institute believes they haven't, and synths are just confused about what they are feeling, so they don't.

    -Never said they weren't. I said they were a different clan.
    -Which is something most other super mutants wouldn't even be able to think about.
    -Radiation damages human cells, which makes super mutants stupid. But super mutants themselves are healed by radiation. Being exposed to the fog likely fixed something in his head, which allowed for more rationality.

    -Its more like "I felt every single bone, organ, and piece of my body, quickly and rapidly expand and mutate in such a way no human mind is capable of understanding, as you never feel this in any normal existence. And it drove me crazy."
    -Mariposa super mutants are dipped into FEV. Vault 87 and Institute super mutants are gassed with an aerosol form of FEV. Different means of delivery result in different transformation processes. Not to mention the Mariposa and V87/Institute strains of FEV are different.

    A. Vault 87 and Institute super mutants aren't dipped, they are gassed.
    B. Mariposa super mutants are made using a different strain of FEV.
    C. Who says anyone "allowed" it? Or that anyone deliberately programmed it into the FEV? Vault 87 Super mutants all died in like three weeks after transformation during testing, and after they made the successful batch of super mutants who didn't die in three weeks, the super mutants broke out, and forcibly mutated the rest of the vault personnel. No one had any time to study V87 super mutant existence for any period of time to make changes to the FEV.

    That is why no one makes deals at their bases, they make deals in neutral places like the Third Rail, like any smart person would do. Only an idiot willingly walks into someone's base to make a deal that could be turned down, and possibly cause them to be shot by an enemy that has the advantage of being in their own base. What crime show have you watched where two rival groups or w/e agree to meet at one groups base? None, they all meet in neutral places like "down at the docks" or w/e the cliche for that show is.

    If you payed attention to who is at the racetrack you would see its all Triggermen or raiders, aka, people already part of The Commonwealth criminal element. They don't accept average Joes into the place. And criminals have their own underworld of connections and ways to meet.

    Because the Triggermen have no reason or desire to talk to you. Same with the Gunners, and the average raider clan.

    Even if you could, as is pointed out during the quest, Nick and the Triggerman's boss have history, they wouldn't have let you just talk them out them out of it normally. Its literally personal business between the Boss and Nick.
     
  11. 0wing

    0wing Все умрут, а я волномут

    Mar 23, 2015
    Wrong. Shaun's DNA is not pure, he witnessed a nuclear explosion and bathed in radiation. And I'm pretty sure that molecular teleportation could shake up the Shaun's DNA too.
     
  12. Greed

    Greed Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    318
    Nov 4, 2016
    You are aware that expose to radiation =/= instant mutation? You spend all day being bathed in radiation from tons of sources including the sun, and your DNA isn't instantly mutated because of it.

    There are people, IRL, whose job it is to dive into nuclear reactors to fix parts on the inside of them, who don't suffer from death, or terrible mutations, since they spend only a limited amount of time in them.

    In Fallout 4, the bomb we see in the intro was over 16 miles away, we are only exposed to the shock wave for a few seconds, and we pass through a radiation screening before entering the vault proper and are given an all clear.

    Its perfectly possible, based on real world science, that Shaun, Nate, Nora, and everyone else standing on that platform, suffered zero radiation damage from being far enough away, and being only exposed for a few seconds.
     
  13. BigGuyCIA

    BigGuyCIA Yer fond of me Lobster!

    Oct 26, 2016
    Who cares? The entire plot was a bad attempt at hooking the player into the story with a 'muh baby' mcguffin.

    When asked why they needed a baby with pure DNA, the explanation is some horse shit about holding the secrets to near-human 3rd generation synths. They can't even completely explain why they wanted 3rd generation synths.
     
  14. Greed

    Greed Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    318
    Nov 4, 2016
    And Fallout 1 was a bad attempt as hooking the player into the story with a "MUH FRIENDS IN THE VAULT!"
    And Fallout 2 was "MUH FAMILY IN ARROYO!"
    And Fallout 3 was "MUH DAD!"
    And Fallout 4 was "MUH SON!"
    Its almost like every main series Fallout game had played the family/friend card as the main motivator to get you into the plot. Hell, even games like Baldur's Gate roped you in with "GOTTA FIND OUT WHO KILLED MUH DAD!". Its a pretty common staple of RPGs.


    And they do explain why they wanted 3rd Gen synths. The synth program was created to be a perfect workforce that could adapt to any situation that arose with no human oversight, without falling into programming loops like the Mr Handy robots do, were they constantly keep at a task even after its obviously become pointless. This was so actual people could spend all of their time doing whatever they wanted, and generally bettering themselves, without having to spend time doing things like building maintenance.
     
  15. BigGuyCIA

    BigGuyCIA Yer fond of me Lobster!

    Oct 26, 2016
    Gee whiz I missed the part in Fallout 1 and 2 where the player was chasing after their kidnapped mcguffin in some contrived attempt to make player more empathetic to the plot.

    Lul, gonna cite some source there or are you just inserting headcanon in place of something malleable from the game's lore?
     
  16. Greed

    Greed Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    318
    Nov 4, 2016
    Sources on what part exactly?
    1. A number of synths, such as H2-22, and Glory, talk about how synths are primarily used as workers behind the walls of The Institute, keeping everything working. Synths being designed to be workers is backed up by a number of terminals referencing synths being sent to the surface for jobs like collecting scrap, or siphoning power, when needed. Liam Binet even mentions he hacks the work orders to get synths who want to escape on surface duty so they can escape.

    Even when it comes to all the synths we see in the main part of the Institute when we go there, all they are doing is tasks like sweeping, working on panels, digging out tunnels, and acting as shop vendors.

    2. Terminal entries such as
    http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/The_Institute_terminal_entries#Infiltrator_Unit:_McDonough
    http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/The_Institute_terminal_entries#Fancy_Lads_Snack_Cakes
    Mention things like
    -"M7-62 was specifically engineered to mimic the actual human McDonough. As such, the unit's synthetic biology is that of someone overweight and grossly out of shape. A mem wipe would kill any psychological weaknesses attributed to self-perceived old age, but that body? Lost cause."
    -"Good thing it's physically impossible for a Gen 3 to actually gain weight and succumb to obesity."
    Reference their biological staticness. You can even overhear a few scientists talk about feeling bad for synth Shaun, since hes going to be a kid forever(since synths dont age)

    3. Shaun himself states a big goal behind Gen 3 synths was
    http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Shaun
    "At that time, the year 2227, the Institute had made great strides in synth production. But it was never enough. Scientific curiosity and the goal of perfection drove them ever onward. What they wanted was... the perfect machine. So they followed the best example thus far - the human being. Walking, talking, fully articulate... Capable of anything. "

    4. You can ask Max Loken about synths and he stated
    http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Max_Loken's_dialogue
    Player Default: What makes them superior?
    Max: The list of improvements is exhaustive. I can talk for an hour and still not cover all of it. Imagine what you could accomplish if you could live without fear of hunger or disease. Imagine what you could create if you could use every waking moment of your life as you saw fit, with no need of sleep?

    Its pretty obvious what the gen 3 synth's purpose is, if you take everything stated or shown in-game.

    Synths are workers, designed to never break down, and never stop working.
     
  17. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Watching someone arguing in favour of Fallout 4, is like watching someone explaining modern art.
     
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  18. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    Supermutants are healed by radiation?

    It's kinda dumb that an FEV mutant would be healed by radiation dontcha think?

    Doesn't it at all bother you that these Supermutants have nothing to do with what Supermutants were originally about?

    Why even call these creatures Supermutants to begin with, when Supermutants were associated with The Master, and were the lost and displaced remnants of a fallen ideology. Supermutants are the remnants of the Unity, who were brainwashed to service to The Master. With the destruction of The Cathedral they became displaced, trying to blend in with human society.

    Why does Bethesda even call these dumb-creatures "Supermutants" to begin with, when they have none of the charm that original supermutants have. Why not just call them "Mutant Orcs" or something.
    In real life torture victims often become constantly anxious, suffering constant trauma from the event. Running head first in to a battlefield would probably be the last thing they'd want to do after that sort of event.

    Why in Fallout does intense pain turn you in to someone who murders indiscriminately?, that's just kinda dumb.
    That's not the point.

    My point was, if it was intense pain that turned Supermutants in to murderous psychopaths, how come Mariposa Supermutants, who also go through painful transformations, are perfectly sane.
    Because Mariposa would probably have studied FEV carefully. If they had even the slightest idea that it would program people in to murderous psychopaths, they'd probably change it as a health and safety hazard.
    Well surely the Triggermen could have just warned you "Turn Back, this is Triggerman territory". Shooting someone who could have had no idea you were in charge just seems like a dick move.
    Still, a Race Track that shoots random travelers who are simply passing through the area, does not seem like it would last for long. Don't they have better things to do than shoot at complete strangers.

    And besides, why do they turn down your average joe, and only accept raiders?, Like, they live in a literal anarchy, and they aren't doing anything illegal. It would be far more profitable to sell anyone tickets.
    A. The Triggermen are supposed to be The Mafia. The Mafia kinda needs to make deals with people to get business, otherwise they have no basis for organised crime.
    B. Gunners are Mercenaries. Mercenaries need to be able to be reached for negotiation somehow, otherwise how could anyone ever reach them to hire them?
    The device you were supposed to retrieve in Fallout 1 was a Waterchip, a device that could save an entire vault's worth of people.

    The device you were supposed to retrieve in Fallout 2 was a G.E.C.K, a device that could save an entire tribe.

    Fallout 3 and 4 had you chasing down one family member, who were having there own adventures without you.

    The plot hooks in 1 and 2 made you feel like you were a vital figure right from the beginning, trusted to find a device that could save hundreds of lives. The plot hooks in Fallout 3 and 4 essentially made you feel like you were about to show up as a side-character in someone else's adventure.
    Wasn't it possible to create a robot that could work without human oversight WITHOUT giving it sentience?
     
  19. BigGuyCIA

    BigGuyCIA Yer fond of me Lobster!

    Oct 26, 2016
    You've more or less just ironed out what we already knew. They do stuff around the Institute and they were created 'just because.' Gen 2's were already doing/capable of the same tasks the Gen 3's were doing, with the exception of infiltrating settlements.

    I was hoping for something a little more concrete than just 'for shits and giggles.' If they had stated their intended goals as being "we want to infiltrate the commonwealth and control them on the inside," I would have been more sympathetic to the idea that the Institute was a well-written faction.
     
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  20. Greed

    Greed Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    318
    Nov 4, 2016
    In order to prevent the quote wall from growing.

    1. Super Mutants have been healed by radiation for awhile. Even in NV they were healed by radiation. It makes sense you would want your super soldiers, in a world full of atomic energy, to be immune, and possibly benefit from, atomic power.

    2. It bothers me no more then things like Autumn turning against Eden, and the Enclave's general goal of trying to murder everyone, or the MWBoS and Lyons/Maxson BoS not being the exact same as the Western BoS. I don't see why everything has to be the exact same everywhere you go. Differences in everything from ideals, to mutations, are what makes the different areas of post-war America interesting and fresh.

    3. They call them super mutants because they are super mutants. Being a super mutant had nothing to do with The Master, anyone could fall into a vat of FEV and come out a super mutant. Super Mutants are defined by being mutants made by FEV, and thus stronger aka "super" compared to non FEV mutants like most mutated wildlife, or ghouls, who are made just by radiation.

    4. Super Mutants aren't torture victims, they suffered something far worse then any torture humanity has ever used against another man. The pain broke them to the point of insanity.

    5. Because, again, Mariposa super mutants are made by dipping, not by being gassed, on top of the fact they were made by a different strain of FEV. Obviously the difference in FEV strain, and application method, results in a far less painful experience.

    6. And Vault 87 FEV wasn't Mariposa FEV. It was a different strain of FEV. What Mariposa studied on their FEV has no bearing on the V87 FEV, since its not the same FEV.

    7. The Triggerman's base was a vault, in a subway station, that no normal person ever walked too. Its not like its a house in the middle of Diamond City a million people have to walk by every day. Its something you have to deliberately try to reach. The only people who could ever be there are
    A. Triggermen who are supposed to be there
    B. People who have been invited to be there
    C. People who are there to do them harm

    8. The Triggermen at the race tack don't shoot anyone just walking by. You have to walk directly into it to get them to notice you. You can walk by it, and all around it, without drawing their attention. Again, you have to deliberately intrude on their territory for them to attack you.

    Also, raiders are far more likely to have the caps, or something worth caps, that would make allowing them in worthwhile rather then the common Commonwealth citizen who lives in a shack and whose only source of income is growing food in Diamond City or a small settlement farm.

    9. I said the Triggermen and Gunners have no reason or desire to talk to you. Not that they have no reason or desire to talk to anyone. The Triggermen and Gunners do make deals with people. We see them working for Marowski, Malcolm Latimer, the Cabots, Old Man Stockton, whoever hired them to raid HalluciGen, people with power, influence, caps, and connections. Things you do not have.

    10. Synths are not supposed to have sentience, that's the whole point. The Institute has been trying to scrub that "flaw" out of them for awhile.

    You completely missed the point. It isn't for shit and giggles, its for achieving a state of efficiency and lifestyle no one has ever truly experienced before.

    An idealized post-work utopia where everyone can simply spend all of their time better themselves instead of having to spend time doing menial work.

    Something people ave been trying to achieve since forever.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016