Fallout New Vegas and Speech Checks

Discussion in 'Fallout: New Vegas Discussion' started by MessedUpPro, Sep 24, 2015.

  1. MessedUpPro

    MessedUpPro First time out of the vault

    47
    Jun 11, 2015
    @Rayne: Oh, I'm not surprised. Not one bit. This is exactly what I expected, for better or for worse. I called Walpknut out because he's the worst offender of the aforementioned blind bias and arrogant, elitist attitude. The worst I see every time I drop by, anyway.
     
  2. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    It's an honor.
    In any case a dice roll is not "challenging gameplay" and it's funny they remove dice rolls from where they belong (The Luck stat) and instead make what should be a Skill (or, stat now I guess) that is based entirely on hard and concise use of words to convince others into a jedi mind trick witha random chance. It's the kind of backwards design Bethesda always has, just like making their Level Up poster go down with each level or having cooking in Skyrim when there is no Primary needs mechanic of any kind.
    New Vegas resolved the issues and limitations the new format put on the Dialogue choices by actually putting the effort on writting different dialogue for failed and Successfull skill checks and even putting in a layer of Puzzle solving to conversations that rewarded players who went through the trouble of paying attention to dialogue, doing certain actions during their run or collecting enough Holotapes or even just pickingthe right line of reasoning while talking to major characters. FO3 on the other hand has you convince the Computer President to blow everything up with a single badly written line of dialogue that is also just a dice roll. No bias involved in appreciating that, actually there is more bias involved in not being able to see how it is superior.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 5
  3. MessedUpPro

    MessedUpPro First time out of the vault

    47
    Jun 11, 2015
    He speaks! NOW I'm surprised. And guess what? I agree with you. Well, mostly. I think nitpicking about the orientation of the perk poster is kind of ridiculous, but I guess that's what happens when you have a blind hatred for something. Regardless, I agree. New Vegas did dialogue better, as far as the choices you can make. I still wish there was some mod that changed the point checks to percentages. Never could find anything like that. I think the two mixed together would make for a perfect combination. That's my opinion, anyway. Sometimes I just went with it, if my speech rolls failed in FO3. It adds to the game. Fallout 3 was far too easy, and just dealing with dead companions and failed checks add a little challenge.
     
  4. TheChosen1

    TheChosen1 Moving Target

    Nov 8, 2012
    You could have it require a certain speech level and then go for a percentage. Regardless, I don't like the randomness of speech checks in F3, IIRC in the originals if your speech was too low, you couldn't see the option. (Haven't played 1/2 in a while and that's how it works in Nevada)
     
  5. 5545Trey

    5545Trey Underground Deviant

    633
    Jun 25, 2014
    Of course this is different. One involves allowing the playable character more freedom; the other is just about how speech checks are/can be handled in Fallout 3. I do not see how one can possibly argue this. So what if it is the same argument? I am using it in a completely different context, and the argument itself is being focused around reloading the last save file, and repeating the process until you pass the necessary speech check needed for a slightly different outcome and reaction from said NPC.

    I disagree. Why should it need to be randomized and unpredictable to offer players a challenge? What is even the point of making speech checks challenging?

    Believe me, I have seen forums that makes the Codex look something out of Disneyland.
     
  6. MessedUpPro

    MessedUpPro First time out of the vault

    47
    Jun 11, 2015
    I'm sorry, let me rephrase that. Immortal companions. That's the argument Bethesda used to justify immortal companions. How does having your dog die, because it ran up to a Super Mutant and killed itself, allow more freedom? It's a situation that leads to exactly what you just said the speech checks lead to, no? Instantly reloading until the dog lives? How about putting it into the context of New Vegas, where it's not just a slightly different response, but rather, can lead to an entirely different outcome in dialogue? You know, not everybody is perfect at everything, all the time. If that were the case, then having 10 Perception, and high Guns skills, should equal instant hits every time, no? How about we take it a step further, and put it into the context of the NPC's Speech skill/Perception, which we are playing against when we try to pass a Speech check. Wouldn't it make perfect sense that the NPC may also just pick up on our bullshit, if we are trying to lie to him? Regardless of how well we say it?

    It's random, yes, but in New Vegas, I feel it would be a welcome addition, adding that extra bit of flavor to trying to smooth talk your way past somebody, or convincing somebody to join you. Especially since New Vegas's dialogue is far superior to FO3's.
     
  7. 5545Trey

    5545Trey Underground Deviant

    633
    Jun 25, 2014
    You misinterpret what I meant, and rephrasing "immortal companions" does not make your point anymore clearer, because I already took note of that. Also, in your previous post, you replaced the acronym "NPCs" with just the word "companions"; there is fine line between these two terms and it seems as if you are using them interchangeably. This discussion quickly changed from focusing on "immortal NPCs" to "immortal companions", and all it took was just one post to change the subject.

    Where did I imply having one of your companions die allows for more player freedom? I implied having the ability to kill every NPC in the game allows for more freedom of choice. Now of course, reloading your latest save file after your companion has died is exactly the same as reloading after you have failed a speech check. However, that was never my argument in the first place. My argument was solely based on questioning how a Speech Skill system as random and unpredictability as Fallout 3 could ever be challenging when a player can just boost their chances of passing speech checks, are not satisfying to read or pass, and have little to no effect on the outcome of a quest. You are right, not everyone has to be perfect at every single possible aspect, but sadly, Bethesda's policy says otherwise.

    I can understand why you would appreciate the way Bethesda did speech checks in Fallout 3, but I thought the first two Fallout games did it better.
     
  8. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    One way to improve on the Dialoge checks in New Vegas is, not by making them dice rolls of course, that's jsut retarded, but by removing the Skill tag next to them (or maybe just hide the numerical value you need) like in Lexx's mod so you would just see the failed dialogue check option (because a lot of them are hilarious) there if you didn't meet the Skill, also maybe have characters that get angry if you have too high a skill and you try to talk them up, just like when you discuss Bethesda fanboys who use the word Elitist. Would be an interesting mix of mechanics and charactrization.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2015
  9. PossibleCabbage

    PossibleCabbage Vault 22 Survivor

    889
    Jul 2, 2015
    Yeah, hiding the number or the skill would have been a good idea. There are several ones that are just [skill] not [skill #] in the DLC, right? DLC is a place where you implement things you demonstrate learned lessons from the game itself, so that would make sense.
     
  10. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Yeah I think that's on Lonesome Road during Ulysses' confrontation. I am not sure, I have been playing with Lexx' dialogue tag mod for 3 years now so I am used to not seeing the skill tag.
     
  11. XCalinX

    XCalinX First time out of the vault

    25
    Sep 3, 2015
    No way, on the Codex you're encouraged to be a douche at every opportunity and hate everything.

    What place would be worse?
     
  12. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Probably a couple of subreddits. Or some Snuff sharing deep web forum.
     
  13. PossibleCabbage

    PossibleCabbage Vault 22 Survivor

    889
    Jul 2, 2015
    Dead Money also had a few that you ideally don't want to pass (barter checks with Dean, notably). So they at least played around with the mechanic. I think most anything's better than "die roll when the failure state isn't interesting."
     
  14. Radiosity

    Radiosity Writiosity

    464
    Sep 9, 2015
    The chat you have with Silus has speech checks without numbers, but I suspect that's a bug more than intentional since it comes up as ? instead.
     
  15. 5545Trey

    5545Trey Underground Deviant

    633
    Jun 25, 2014
    Please, as if there are not any other sites that does this.

    I may have exaggerated when I stated Codex is not as bad as people make it out to be, but websites like this will make will quickly make you change your thoughts on the Codex. I would take hatred and douchebaggery over incomprehensible stupidity, any day.
     
  16. ChildServices

    ChildServices Banned

    319
    May 22, 2015
    A lot of people seem to have strange ideas that simply because an old game has something, that this shouldn't be deviated from, even if people back then thought it wasn't very good game design either. It's not that we should return to the way old games were in their entirety, it's more that the way a lot of newer games have chosen to "move forwards" from old formulae isn't really all that much of a way forwards for us.

    One example is to merge redundant skills together, or possibly cut less useful ones that are too dynamic to be useful without a living DM overseeing the game. Why would anybody view things like that as being negative, I won't know.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2015
  17. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    Again it's opinion. I personally like the system while others hated it. The best part is because of Bethesda it's not getting better, due to them making an even shittier system AND their guard dog stance to the IP meaning NO ONE else get's to fix it!
     
  18. XCalinX

    XCalinX First time out of the vault

    25
    Sep 3, 2015
    I'm not surprised the Halo forums are awful.

    That's why I stick to here and GTAForums.
     
  19. 5545Trey

    5545Trey Underground Deviant

    633
    Jun 25, 2014
    You do realize not all Halo Forums are similar to Waypoint, right? GTAForums might be a better website, but that is not saying much, since it is has its fair share of idiocy.
     
  20. XCalinX

    XCalinX First time out of the vault

    25
    Sep 3, 2015
    It's mostly the Online section which little kids inhabit that ruin GTAForums. I find it funny that people there actually honestly believe GTA V's LS is bigger than GTA IV's LC.