Fallout New Vegas and Speech Checks

[MessedUpPro]

@Rayne: Oh, I'm not surprised. Not one bit. This is exactly what I expected, for better or for worse. I called Walpknut out because he's the worst offender of the aforementioned blind bias and arrogant, elitist attitude. The worst I see every time I drop by, anyway.

 

[Walpknut]

It's an honor.
In any case a dice roll is not "challenging gameplay" and it's funny they remove dice rolls from where they belong (The Luck stat) and instead make what should be a Skill (or, stat now I guess) that is based entirely on hard and concise use of words to convince others into a jedi mind trick witha random chance. It's the kind of backwards design Bethesda always has, just like making their Level Up poster go down with each level or having cooking in Skyrim when there is no Primary needs mechanic of any kind.
New Vegas resolved the issues and limitations the new format put on the Dialogue choices by actually putting the effort on writting different dialogue for failed and Successfull skill checks and even putting in a layer of Puzzle solving to conversations that rewarded players who went through the trouble of paying attention to dialogue, doing certain actions during their run or collecting enough Holotapes or even just pickingthe right line of reasoning while talking to major characters. FO3 on the other hand has you convince the Computer President to blow everything up with a single badly written line of dialogue that is also just a dice roll. No bias involved in appreciating that, actually there is more bias involved in not being able to see how it is superior.

 

[MessedUpPro]

He speaks! NOW I'm surprised. And guess what? I agree with you. Well, mostly. I think nitpicking about the orientation of the perk poster is kind of ridiculous, but I guess that's what happens when you have a blind hatred for something. Regardless, I agree. New Vegas did dialogue better, as far as the choices you can make. I still wish there was some mod that changed the point checks to percentages. Never could find anything like that. I think the two mixed together would make for a perfect combination. That's my opinion, anyway. Sometimes I just went with it, if my speech rolls failed in FO3. It adds to the game. Fallout 3 was far too easy, and just dealing with dead companions and failed checks add a little challenge.

 

[TheChosen1]

I think the two mixed together would make for a perfect combination

You could have it require a certain speech level and then go for a percentage. Regardless, I don't like the randomness of speech checks in F3, IIRC in the originals if your speech was too low, you couldn't see the option. (Haven't played 1/2 in a while and that's how it works in Nevada)

 

[5545Trey]

Nice try, but no. This discussion has nothing to do with immortal NPCs, and that is a completely topic, so it does not solidify your argument.

You used the same argument that was used by Bethesda to justify making companions immortal, but no, this is somehow different. Right, makes sense. Good job, mate. You're right though, this is a different subject.

Of course this is different. One involves allowing the playable character more freedom; the other is just about how speech checks are/can be handled in Fallout 3. I do not see how one can possibly argue this. So what if it is the same argument? I am using it in a completely different context, and the argument itself is being focused around reloading the last save file, and repeating the process until you pass the necessary speech check needed for a slightly different outcome and reaction from said NPC.

Elaborate on how it adds more challenge when you can just reload the latest save slot in the game.

I think it could add challenge in the vein of doing a playthrough without reloading saves, minus death reloads and loading saves after a break. The percentage way makes it a unpredictable sometimes even if you have a high speech, unlike New Vegas where you could just add all your points into speech and guarantee any situation to your favour. The check way might be more convenient but I just like the percentage way more, one of the few things I don't mind about F3.

I disagree. Why should it need to be randomized and unpredictable to offer players a challenge? What is even the point of making speech checks challenging?

The funny thing is the Codex is even worse than us and they call us pussies for not flaming the fuck out of you guys as you come in here spouting off this Bethesda shit.

Believe me, I have seen forums that makes the Codex look something out of Disneyland.

 

[MessedUpPro]

Of course this is different. One involves allowing the playable character more freedom; the other is just about how speech checks are/can be handled in Fallout 3. I do not see how one can possibly argue this. So what if it is the same argument? I am using it in a completely different context, and the argument itself is being focused around reloading the last save file, and repeating the process until you pass the necessary speech check needed for a slightly different outcome and reaction from said NPC.

I'm sorry, let me rephrase that. Immortal companions. That's the argument Bethesda used to justify immortal companions. How does having your dog die, because it ran up to a Super Mutant and killed itself, allow more freedom? It's a situation that leads to exactly what you just said the speech checks lead to, no? Instantly reloading until the dog lives? How about putting it into the context of New Vegas, where it's not just a slightly different response, but rather, can lead to an entirely different outcome in dialogue? You know, not everybody is perfect at everything, all the time. If that were the case, then having 10 Perception, and high Guns skills, should equal instant hits every time, no? How about we take it a step further, and put it into the context of the NPC's Speech skill/Perception, which we are playing against when we try to pass a Speech check. Wouldn't it make perfect sense that the NPC may also just pick up on our bullshit, if we are trying to lie to him? Regardless of how well we say it?

It's random, yes, but in New Vegas, I feel it would be a welcome addition, adding that extra bit of flavor to trying to smooth talk your way past somebody, or convincing somebody to join you. Especially since New Vegas's dialogue is far superior to FO3's.

 

[5545Trey]

Of course this is different. One involves allowing the playable character more freedom; the other is just about how speech checks are/can be handled in Fallout 3. I do not see how one can possibly argue this. So what if it is the same argument? I am using it in a completely different context, and the argument itself is being focused around reloading the last save file, and repeating the process until you pass the necessary speech check needed for a slightly different outcome and reaction from said NPC.

I'm sorry, let me rephrase that. Immortal companions. That's the argument Bethesda used to justify immortal companions. How does having your dog die, because it ran up to a Super Mutant and killed itself, allow more freedom? It's a situation that leads to exactly what you just said the speech checks lead to, no? Instantly reloading until the dog lives? How about putting it into the context of New Vegas, where it's not just a slightly different response, but rather, can lead to an entirely different outcome in dialogue? You know, not everybody is perfect at everything, all the time. If that were the case, then having 10 Perception, and high Guns skills, should equal instant hits every time, no? How about we take it a step further, and put it into the context of the NPC's Speech skill/Perception, which we are playing against when we try to pass a Speech check. Wouldn't it make perfect sense that the NPC may also just pick up on our bullshit, if we are trying to lie to him? Regardless of how well we say it?

It's random, yes, but in New Vegas, I feel it would be a welcome addition, adding that extra bit of flavor to trying to smooth talk your way past somebody, or convincing somebody to join you. Especially since New Vegas's dialogue is far superior to FO3's.

You misinterpret what I meant, and rephrasing "immortal companions" does not make your point anymore clearer, because I already took note of that. Also, in your previous post, you replaced the acronym "NPCs" with just the word "companions"; there is fine line between these two terms and it seems as if you are using them interchangeably. This discussion quickly changed from focusing on "immortal NPCs" to "immortal companions", and all it took was just one post to change the subject.

Where did I imply having one of your companions die allows for more player freedom? I implied having the ability to kill every NPC in the game allows for more freedom of choice. Now of course, reloading your latest save file after your companion has died is exactly the same as reloading after you have failed a speech check. However, that was never my argument in the first place. My argument was solely based on questioning how a Speech Skill system as random and unpredictability as Fallout 3 could ever be challenging when a player can just boost their chances of passing speech checks, are not satisfying to read or pass, and have little to no effect on the outcome of a quest. You are right, not everyone has to be perfect at every single possible aspect, but sadly, Bethesda's policy says otherwise.

I can understand why you would appreciate the way Bethesda did speech checks in Fallout 3, but I thought the first two Fallout games did it better.

 

[Walpknut]

One way to improve on the Dialoge checks in New Vegas is, not by making them dice rolls of course, that's jsut retarded, but by removing the Skill tag next to them (or maybe just hide the numerical value you need) like in Lexx's mod so you would just see the failed dialogue check option (because a lot of them are hilarious) there if you didn't meet the Skill, also maybe have characters that get angry if you have too high a skill and you try to talk them up, just like when you discuss Bethesda fanboys who use the word Elitist. Would be an interesting mix of mechanics and charactrization.

 

[PossibleCabbage]

One way to improve on the Dialoge checks in New Vegas is, not by making them dice rolls of course, that's jsut retarded, but by removing the Skill tag next to them (or maybe just hide the numerical value you need) like in Lexx's mod so you would just see the failed dialogue check option (because a lot of them are hilarious) there if you didn't meet the Skill, also maybe have characters that get angry if you have too high a skill and you try to talk them up.

Yeah, hiding the number or the skill would have been a good idea. There are several ones that are just [skill] not [skill #] in the DLC, right? DLC is a place where you implement things you demonstrate learned lessons from the game itself, so that would make sense.

 

[Walpknut]

Yeah I think that's on Lonesome Road during Ulysses' confrontation. I am not sure, I have been playing with Lexx' dialogue tag mod for 3 years now so I am used to not seeing the skill tag.

 

[XCalinX]

Believe me, I have seen forums that makes the Codex look something out of Disneyland.

No way, on the Codex you're encouraged to be a douche at every opportunity and hate everything.

What place would be worse?

 

[Walpknut]

Probably a couple of subreddits. Or some Snuff sharing deep web forum.

 

[PossibleCabbage]

Yeah I think that's on Lonesome Road during Ulysses' confrontation. I am not sure, I have been playing with Lexx' dialogue tag mod for 3 years now so I am used to not seeing the skill tag.

Dead Money also had a few that you ideally don't want to pass (barter checks with Dean, notably). So they at least played around with the mechanic. I think most anything's better than "die roll when the failure state isn't interesting."

 

[Radiosity]

Yeah I think that's on Lonesome Road during Ulysses' confrontation. I am not sure, I have been playing with Lexx' dialogue tag mod for 3 years now so I am used to not seeing the skill tag.

The chat you have with Silus has speech checks without numbers, but I suspect that's a bug more than intentional since it comes up as ? instead.

 

[5545Trey]

Believe me, I have seen forums that makes the Codex look something out of Disneyland.

No way, on the Codex you're encouraged to be a douche at every opportunity and hate everything.

What place would be worse?

Please, as if there are not any other sites that does this.

I may have exaggerated when I stated Codex is not as bad as people make it out to be, but websites like this will make will quickly make you change your thoughts on the Codex. I would take hatred and douchebaggery over incomprehensible stupidity, any day.

 

[ChildServices]

So absolutely Fo1&2 had random chances for skill checks, but it wasn't really a good idea then either.

A lot of people seem to have strange ideas that simply because an old game has something, that this shouldn't be deviated from, even if people back then thought it wasn't very good game design either. It's not that we should return to the way old games were in their entirety, it's more that the way a lot of newer games have chosen to "move forwards" from old formulae isn't really all that much of a way forwards for us.

One example is to merge redundant skills together, or possibly cut less useful ones that are too dynamic to be useful without a living DM overseeing the game. Why would anybody view things like that as being negative, I won't know.

 

[Dr Fallout]

So absolutely Fo1&2 had random chances for skill checks, but it wasn't really a good idea then either.

A lot of people seem to have strange ideas that simply because an old game has something, that this shouldn't be deviated from, even if people back then thought it wasn't very good game design either. It's not that we should return to the way old games were in their entirety, it's more that the way a lot of newer games have chosen to "move forwards" from old formulae isn't really all that much of a way forwards for us.

One example is to merge redundant skills together, or possibly cut less useful ones that are too dynamic to be useful without a living DM overseeing the game. Why would anybody view things like that as being negative, I won't know.

Again it's opinion. I personally like the system while others hated it. The best part is because of Bethesda it's not getting better, due to them making an even shittier system AND their guard dog stance to the IP meaning NO ONE else get's to fix it!

 

[XCalinX]

Please, as if there are not any other sites that does this.

I may have exaggerated when I stated Codex is not as bad as people make it out to be, but websites like this will make will quickly make you change your thoughts on the Codex. I would take hatred and douchebaggery over incomprehensible stupidity, any day.

I'm not surprised the Halo forums are awful.

That's why I stick to here and GTAForums.

 

[5545Trey]

Please, as if there are not any other sites that does this.

I may have exaggerated when I stated Codex is not as bad as people make it out to be, but websites like this will make will quickly make you change your thoughts on the Codex. I would take hatred and douchebaggery over incomprehensible stupidity, any day.

I'm not surprised the Halo forums are awful.

That's why I stick to here and GTAForums.

You do realize not all Halo Forums are similar to Waypoint, right? GTAForums might be a better website, but that is not saying much, since it is has its fair share of idiocy.

 

[XCalinX]

You do realize not all Halo Forums are similar to Waypoint, right? GTAForums might be a better website, but that is not saying much, since it is has its fair share of idiocy.

It's mostly the Online section which little kids inhabit that ruin GTAForums. I find it funny that people there actually honestly believe GTA V's LS is bigger than GTA IV's LC.