Fallout: New Vegas E3 previews

Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by Brother None, Jun 20, 2010.

  1. Expresate

    Expresate It Wandered In From the Wastes

    124
    May 14, 2010
    I know what canon is.

    :[ Bad wording?

    I get what you're saying but your post came off....differently.

    And okay, after having five different people pop up out of the blue with counter-arguments; there's a fairly good chance I'm wrong. I suppose that's what happens when you argue over a subject you don't have a full grasp of yet. However, before I completely admit to being an idiot, I'm going to learn a bit more. So... agree to disagree?

    EDIT:
    Wrong. I've played Fallout, Fallout 2, and Fallout Tactics. I'll admit I started with Fallout 3, but that doesn't mean I'm an "OMGOLDGAMESNON-FPSSUCKz0rS!" fanboy. Thank you. Add that to spending countless hours perusing the wiki (I get bored often), I think I know a good bit about the entire series.

    Yet another EDIT:
    Sorry if my post came off "different." 8 AM, haven't gotten any sleep, yadda yadda. Hopefully you get what I'm saying here.
     
  2. Dario ff

    Dario ff Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    423
    Aug 19, 2008
    Ok, this actually thing has gone a little too far. Even old posts are affected by it, it's kind of annoying.
     
  3. Nark

    Nark Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 6, 2008
    Actually it's cool. :lol:

    It's not like it's permanent anyway. Right... guys?
     
  4. Dario ff

    Dario ff Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    423
    Aug 19, 2008
    But if they change it, people that will read these old posts will think that we're retarded.
     
  5. Nark

    Nark Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 6, 2008
    You think that matters when the general gaming media resents NMA anyway? It's just in-jokes. :)
     
  6. Dario ff

    Dario ff Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    423
    Aug 19, 2008
    I think it would be cool to actually have something like a smiley for it(Actually in a nice, proffesional font, like a logo).
     
  7. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Problem with Fallout 3 is its neither a Human nor a Monkey. Its a Monkuman. ... or something. Frankshoter if you want so.
     
  8. Tolq

    Tolq First time out of the vault

    5
    Jun 5, 2010
    As for the question of manufacturing&maintaining NV - well, the dev team can pretty much invent any more or less realistic argument that will be valid.

    The setting is quite far from the timeline of the great war, the city itself was not hit by nukes and the pre-war technological basis of the fallout universe is generally higher than ours currently.

    As the war itself took place in 2077, their technology was almost 70 years ahead of our current one, so we cannot assume that the materials used in construction before the war are in any way similar to ours, so you cannot state that they will detiriorate, rust, and eventually fall apart like the materials of our time in a similar setting.

    As an example you can take the GECK, a suitcase with a cold fusion reactor in it powerful enough to be a city's main power supply, and containing a holodisc with the contents and libraries of the pre war world, which we can safely assume contain all the technological achievements, production methods etc. etc.

    With such technology at hand what argument can you bring to say that they did not actually have construction materials capable to withstand time much better than those we have in our reality, especially in a setting that was unharmed during the war.

    Basically you could take any, even the most absurd technology and add it into the fallout universe, as long as it does not contradict technology somehow stated in the previous games and say that it either was not available in the regions where the previous games took place(say even the orbital laser facility) or was destroyed where the previous games took place.

    Also, though it wasnt really adressed in Fallout 1-2, there was sufficient knowledge lying about to restore the ability to make certain things and materials, at least the more simple ones, and I'm sure that eventually in a PO setting while most groups would resort to raw force to make some sort of progress some would actually try to re-obtain the knowledge lost during the war, gather books and holodiscs and try to make the most with the technology of the pre-war world.
    And in such groups provided they have the option to ensure their safety they would teach their members whatever they can that will eventually make them move forward.
    A good example of this is the brotherhood which had enough manufacturing capability to eventually construct the energy rifle/pistol, which i would assume require a bit more than a lightbulb to make.

    So what argument can be brought that someone else(i.e House) didn't do the same, but with goals he saw fit(make Vegas what it is)

    To the question of gambling we can bring countless arguments from the previous fallout games that also say "who in his right mind needs this kind of thing in a post-apoc setting?!"
    Every town has a bar(what for?), starting from The Den and forward most towns have an official or unofficial gambling set in bars or back rooms(NCR), and aside from a few shops there aren't really any fields, farmers, cattle, you can question the fact of any fallout communities survival with the mere abscence of food sources, water sources sufficient to grow amounts of food required to sustain field etc. etc, but no one chooses to adress these logic issues in the old games and keeps trying to slam them in FO3 and FO:NV
     
  9. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    Yes, there are. They are frequently mentioned (Modoc, NCR) and you can see fields/bramins in a lot of settlements (Shady Sands, Redding).
     
  10. Tolq

    Tolq First time out of the vault

    5
    Jun 5, 2010
    Well they are mentioned, and while some places should have just died out out of starvation, say the Den - it's full of junkies, a few bars, and that's it.
    Even if we say that the residents are somehow magically able to pay for food brought by caravans from other places a single or few caravans interrupted by raiders and the whole town is left to starve.

    Vault City for another example - their outer(courtyard) water source is contaminated, hence they need to use their inner water source for all farming pourpouses, and they need to make sure that their soil is uncontaminated by the radiation from the courtyard which i think is quite impossible.

    New Reno's survival is also quite questionable as most of the population are either whores/junkies or crime family members, and a small amount of half decent citizens.

    Aside from that how many people can you feed with a single field, and over what period of time?
    How many people will you feed off a single brahmin? say a roast will make a meal for 30-40 people and some meat jerky, and on the next day you eat another one? and another one?
    A simple mathematic calculation will lead us to the conclusion that you need alot brahmin to sustain life in a 30-40 people community over a year, say we eat 300 a year, we need to have at least the same amount of females to sustain reproduction, at least a few males, and i think we could safely double or even triple that number to allow the newborns to grow into a fully adult animal.

    That said you'll need a LOT of fields for them to feed, you"ll need enough people to control and defend such a herd

    And furthermore in a setting in which there is almost no farmland as most of the soil is a radioactive wasteland with contaminated water, you cannot expect to grow sufficient amounts of crops, and you cannot actually store food due to abundancy of rodents(rats and such) and lack of means to stop their numbers, which find ways into and destroy all food storaes, and most likely will consume even the crops you are currently growing
     
  11. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    The Den is a trading post.

    That's why caravans in FO1-2 aren't guarded by a single guard.

    Vault City trades the goods they produce for various things (food included, I guess) and I guess they are also using the Vault 8 hydro-agricultural farms.

    New Reno has been often criticized for that and other things, as a matter of fact.

    Who says they have a single field? What you see in the games isn't everything there is.

    Meat is a luxury. It's not like people eats it everyday even now.

    Dunno about the soil but as far as I remember contaminated water was a problem only in Gecko/Vault City (but it was beacuse of the reactor) and FO3.
     
  12. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    You are forgetting the Den's location - it's the last major settlement on the Fo2 map and, by extension, a major trade hub. It's also the only option Klamath (a town with estabilished agriculture and livestock herding, not to mention a significant trapper population) has to sell its goods to.

    Basically, all the tribes in the north are a major supplier of raw materials like gecko pelts, herbs or food, which they sell in exchange for necessities to Klamath, which in turn trade with the Den. This alone forms a simple, yet efficent economy.

    Then there's slavery, which is a big and important part of the Den's economy, as the slave guild requires food, gunsmiths, repairmen, 'entertainment' and other necessities, which, in turn generates employment among the townsfolk.

    It's late, so I won't elaborate too much, lest I risk becoming totally incomprehensible. Point is, the connections exist, you just have to stop and think for a while.

    Uh, no, you missed the point. The soil is not contaminated, it's the Gecko's leaking reactor that's polluting the groundwater (and pissing VC off to no end).

    New Reno's survival is another matter entirely, I might cover that someday.

    See, this is where problems start. I don't know if the current generation of players is retarded or something, but they apparently cannot comprehend the fact that a game is an abstraction. Obviously, Fallout cannot present an entire city, only a slice of it, a summary of how it would act and look if it were to exist in real life.

    Point is, you try to take Fallout at face value, not as an abstraction. The locations aren't meant to be taken literally and dissected; after all Vaults are supposed to house 1000 inhabitants, but none of the ones seen in Fallout 1/2/3/VB could hold more than 32 people.

    What's important is to show the player that the city does indeed have some means of supporting itself. Those small herds or singular fields you moan about as "not sufficent" are meant as storytelling devices. They exist to tell the player "Hey, this pen with brahmin in it and a cow tender in front means that this city has a sustainable agriculture!".

    Which has been done in history previously. Really, the postnuclear world isn't any worse than, say, post-Roman Europe.

    Where was it said that there was no farmland? Or that the soil is radioactive and all water is contaminated? Yes, farming is hard, but possible in the Fallout world, as evidenced by Shady Sands, Junktown, the Hub, Adytum etc. The world wasn't nuked and salted with radioactive fallout thrice over. It was simply nuked. Nukes aren't nuclear power plants, they don't act like miniature Chernobyls, so they aren't going to blanket the entire world with radioactive dust killing everything.

    The problem here is that you are not thinking.
     
  13. Tolq

    Tolq First time out of the vault

    5
    Jun 5, 2010
    Well my first post was actually for the fact that the game is an abstraction, regarding judgment of NV's abundance in lightbulbs, and later it just went on to the discussion of argicultural life in the wasteland in a realistic scale.


    As for being a "current generation" gamer, that is quite questionable, though i understand the flow of xbox kids with FO3 and NV to this forum, and hence the older members being biased against anyone with a low postcount or a late registration date, i do not think it's quite right to initially assume that if someone didnt post here over the last seven years he's a "current generation" gamer.


    The comparison with post-Roman Europe is a bit rough i think, the Roman Empire didn't burn out Europe with nuclear warheads and turn it into a desert, which has quite an effect on farming and cattle growing in a scale to feed a population and trade.
    The fertility of the land has been hit, and the land is now a desert, you don't even have grass that your brahmin would feed on.


    The Den being a trading hub doesn't say anything, even if taken by scale - as charity and helping others isn't really popular in the PA fallout world, the traders, bartenders, guards and slavers will do fine, but the rest of the population has no means of sustaining life.
    As for caravan guards, even on the scale of 4-8 guards per merchant the caravans can be easily destroyed(eg. caravan escort jobs) and in a situation where a couple of caravans being hit the Den would eventually stay without food supplies.
    The slavers being the major economic and all other power in the Den don't really contribute as their way of obtaining slaves will eventually destroy the tribes, and leave them without the Klamath trade goods, and later forcing them to take over Klamath with lack of sources for human goods, or enslaving Klamath to provide them with whatever they traded for earlier.

    I am aware that the Vault City issue is with the water contamination, but even when the problem is solved the water remains contaminated, and VC remains with no means to clean it, and hence with no means to water anything grown outside the vault, on either side of the fence with water not from the vault's water sources.
    As for trading i doubt VC will trade for food with the outside world, with their policy regarding outsiders and anything originating from the outside, the hydro-agricultural farms do make sense though, even if they are able to feed a small amount of people.

    I talked about meat as the only food in fallout is meat jerky and the weird fruit(with not a single fruit tree ingame), not taking iguana on a stick into consideration as it is more of an occasional food then a constant food source.

    As for the scaling and storytelling elements i agree that there is no point in doing a full scale scaling of food supply to population, i just noted that it would in fact require much more if we were to project the fallout setting to real life, and hence the claims of NV being unfallouty or unrealistic by fallout standards can be used in the same way to adress "unrealism" issues in the first two games.
     
  14. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Again, you're not thinking. If New Vegas has lightbulbs, then it has the ability to produce them. Granted, they might not be on par with pre-war ones, but they are and they do their job.

    If Edison could invent the lightbulb in his workshop without high technology, then surely an intact, post-war city can have a workshop that's pumping out lightbulbs (both for own use and for sale).

    I go by your posts. If you haven't noticed, I generally treat stupid posts by old members the same as stupid posts by new members.

    Yes, there was a climate change. However, it is not nearly as severe as you make it out to be, evidenced by the fact that communities on the West Coast could have sustainable agriculture.

    As for the comparison, pick any ancient/early medieval civilization and go with it. Egypt for instance.
     
  15. Tolq

    Tolq First time out of the vault

    5
    Jun 5, 2010
    Well that's kind of the point i was trying to make in my first post, that and the discussion of NV being unfallouty because it remained in good shape after the war.

    If you go by my posts why even mention the "current generation" thing?
     
  16. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    It must be the late hour and lack of sleep.
     
  17. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    As long as they have money they can buy food from Klamath, tribals and other settlements not on the map. Also I suppose they have stocks of good. If, for whatever reason, no one comes for a month it's not like they would starve to death. And if caravans would start to get hit routinely they'd actively search the culprits, like Harold did.

    I don't remember any mention of Vault City (the inner one) having fields or growing anything.
    The people in courtyard indeed had farmers among them, but VC doesn't care about them.

    Why? If they are short on food they will happily trade with the more organized places like the NCR, regardless of what they think of them.

    Officially the vaults can house 1000 inhabitants and by the time of FO2 VC has only 103 citizens. So it's not a problem.

    In-game you find only those, it's true. But then what would the fields be used for?
     
  18. Ncee-Coke

    Ncee-Coke First time out of the vault

    5
    Jun 26, 2010
    I find the willingness of people to ponder upon a fictional setting while their real world screws up more and more towards the obvious-reality-you-would-not-want-to-wanna-have-besides-CRPG disturbing.


    Having said that: Anything "they" can do to improve a whack-ass-video-game ( geez, the older you get, the more whack-ass video-games get unless you make your money outta them) which mimiced an RPG to be a "real" RPG would work for me.

    Those trailers do show at least the ability and the brute force of will to make the best of the given crap-craps. Expecting more is being...not so conscious about "ze industry". That is, why those knowlingly-corrupted-by-money-bags gave us tools. not saying, that doing their work without payment is something cool, hip or even shoot´em- upping.
     
  19. Per

    Per Vault Consort Staff Member Admin

    Apr 1, 2004
    And do you know what's going on in South Africa right now? Some people have cleared a grassy space, placed a ball on it and are just kicking it around over and over!

    Tigers are going extinct right now, assholes!
     
  20. Jay Null

    Jay Null First time out of the vault

    34
    Jun 9, 2010
    Bruce Campell, Natalie portman,
    and Morgan Freeman (Big Brother) in

    1984:2


    "Break Free", June 2067.

    (Admittedly, I was to post something more thoughtful but then realised the error of such action. And then . . . Deity preserve me)

    Would of been nice to see New Vegas as a city starved of technology, as opposed to a glitzy lil' den of sin with tonnes of robots, neon lights, and highly maintained buildings. A place where people are struggling to maintain the airs of a pre-apocalyptic society, as the Old Technology fails all around them. Facades of buildings crumbling, worn out/hand drawn playing cards, scuffed plastic chips as currency, faded, patched, broken neon lights covering the horizon . . .

    Well, at least there aren't any cars, right guys?

    A mildly complex neon light a lightbulb not.

    What do they use lubricate the machinery within the dam?

    As far as fields are concerned, I've heard that single field (or acre) is enough to feed a family.

    So, 40 people would require roughly a 3/4 square mile patch of land.

    As far as eating an entire two-headed cow a day? Why? The milk is surely more valuable.
    Essential proteins you say? Well . . . There are other things to eat than cows requiring several fields worth of grass per animal.

    As far as populations starving due to a lack of supplies due to transport interruptions, we have several colonies established early in the New World, and I'm sure there are plenty of others. Castle garrisons, especially.

    "Know what they have you do if you're contaminated by heavy water?
    They sit you down in a hotel room with a case of beer and tell you 'Drink, you'll piss it out.'"
    "Oh shit, Bob! Your badge is beeping!"
    "Hey Jim*, so's yours. Let's get out of here!"
    "340 milli-rems in 5 minutes, and we were already over-dosed the other day."
    -Technician from an unnamed, local, nuclear power plant
    *Name changed for believing in change.

    While a game may be an abstraction, as technology marches forward, some seem disappointed that games remain so . . . "high" a level . . . surely adding fields and small farming communities to a game like Fallout 3 is possible, procedural, with 3.5 GHz x4 64-bit processors and 1 GB + 1200 MHz graphics cards? Though such may be rather boring . . .

    "don't act like miniature Chernobyls, so they aren't going to blanket the entire world with radioactive dust killing everything"
    . . .
    . . .

    Okay.


    "turn it into a desert" . . . Was a desert before and a desert it remained. Context, gentle-people. Fallout 1/2 took place in a largely-desert landscape, while "Fallout" 3 took place in the "green" rolling "hills" of . . . where ever it took place.

    When considering the Den we must consider what may exist above Vault 13, the area of the map we cannot see.
    Really, the Den was placed where it was for the player's convince, not for any economic plotting . . . Though some of us clearly wish otherwise. I mean, the mutants are right below them!

    So, we have a few bartenders, prostitutes, druggies (who either kill others, enslave others, or choose to die), guards, caravan guards, merchants, scavengers, and hunters . . . Seems like a perfectly plausible trading community.

    Edison produced a rather poor lightbulb after thousands of trials over X years of his life, no? Problems such as generating a vaccum, and air-tight seal, a filament proper, ways to transfer electricty to the filament, the material surrounding the filament, (did he have to deal with DC or AC, I do not know) now imagine doing it with neon gas and the associated electronics . . . But I'm ignorant on this subject.


    What are we even talking about?

    "I find the willingness of people to ponder upon a fictional setting while their real world screws up more and more towards the obvious-reality-you-would-not-want-to-wanna-have-besides-CRPG disturbing. "

    Or the sad acceptance that one cannot change it.