Feargus Urquhart at QuakeCon

[Meh]

Arcanum also has the Herbology and Chemistry disciplines, no?

Yeah?

It's a bad example anyway. I'm talking about game mechanics, yet you're immediately referring to the setting again.

Well there are the drugs in Fallout world which do the same thing as potions and scrolls in many other RPGs. Of course drug which enhances lock picking alone is far fetched. I seem to be mixing or don't understand where's the difference in game mechanics and beliavibility, or why does it matter.
Would, say, archery magazines make more sense for temporary boosting in fantasy games, when alternatively there are potions and magic scrolls which won't require any explanation or mind twisting?

Also, there is this thing called Clarke's third law that states: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

BAM! There you have it. The debate is over.

Were you referring to magazines or lab coats?

I don't agree. The mags will give temp boosts. Temp as in temporary. It's like looking something up, like looking up a telephone number for pizza delivery. You remember that for as long as you need it and then you forget it again. Having the mags disappear on you afterwards is again a matter of game mechanics, I think: if you leave the mag, it sorta defies its purpose, doesn't it? Books disappear as well once you've read them. Is that realistic? No. It's a game mechanic. It's like drinking a potion or using a stimpak. You can use it once. Makes sense to me. I mean: your money doesn't stay put after you've purchased something with it either, now does it?

I tried to rationalize the magazine process somewhat like that too. Am I satisfied with it? No.
I have no problem with books/magazines disappearing after use. Like I usually don't have problem with PC carrying half a wardrobe and gun cabinet. Funny isn't it how gamers explain one thing with realism and discard it in another?

Naturalistic? Que?

Non-supernatural.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

fucking sigh. now i have to play this game? great. here we go:

And why should the skillbooks be eliminated?

because they're less easy to rationalize? because they create an unbalance? because Obsidian found a more balanced game-mechanic? maybe you don't like the idea of a book magically making your stats permanently raise? maybe you don't want your character to have to deal with addiction in order to lock-pick a few doors?

But from the moment this 'RPG device' is materialized as "reading material", the developers must come up with a better excuse for making ones permanent and others temporal than labeling them "books" and "magazines" respectively if they whant to make some sense.

what? why do they need to? Obsidian's game has magazines. Bethesda's game has books. so what?

Uh... I don't know how pointing out an incoherence equals to "bawwing". And also I don't know why what other people think should affect you so much.

trust me, it's bawwing. and it's arbitrary as heck. "And also" trust me, duder. nothing anybody here thinks affects me. at all. but if you want to be taken seriously when you post, nitpicking about something like magazines isn't going to help. at least not to me. that's all i'm saying.

It not being a big deal doesn't prevent it from not making sense.

it makes, as i've said before...no more or less sense than books. Obsidian's Fallout has magazines, Bethesda's Fallout has books. neither of them "make sense" nor does it particularly matter if one company has one and another has the other. how could it?

Uh... I thought I already made myself clear about this, but I will repeat myself: the fact that it makes sense as an RPG mechanic doesn't mean that so will do the way it's presented in-game. I'm not criticizing its value as a game mechanic, but the logic and coherence of the way it is implemented.

ok, fair enough. but then...skill-books are logical and coherent? again: how?

Does it make sense to want to have both temporary and permanent skill boosts for gameplay balance?: Yes
Does It make sense that the knowledge acquired from reading a document is better memorized depending on the format of said document?: Unless you believe in magic, no.

both books and magazines are not going to be in the game. so, this is irrelevant. i say, "good riddance" to skill-books. i'd personally be happy if they make a permanent exit from the series.

Oh, and... by the way, just a sincere question: Why should I take anything you say as 'something personal'?

you shouldn't. it's just a turn of phrase. one meant to show you that i was attempting to tell you that i'm not personally attacking you for your opinion.

 

[cogar66]

what? why do they need to? Obsidian's game has magazines. Bethesda's game has books. so what?

I'm pretty sure NV has BOTH skillbooks and magazines.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

wait, what? i thought the magazines were REPLACING books? that's not true? if that's not true than i apologize, and concede that it would be unnecessary.

 

[Lexx]

Yes, books work like before and now there are also the magazines.

 

[Aphyosis]

wait, what? i thought the magazines were REPLACING books? that's not true? if that's not true than i apologize, and concede that it would be unnecessary.

Books remain the same. Magazines do the same thing as books, but the skill boost is only temporary.

 

[LionXavier]

wait, what? i thought the magazines were REPLACING books? that's not true? if that's not true than i apologize, and concede that it would be unnecessary.

Well, now I understand why this discussion has taken that long Apparently you weren't aware that FO:NV will featurhe both magazines and books, so there's been the confussion between us all this time. Anyway, you must know that if what you said were the case (books replaced by magazines) I not only wouldn't complain about it, but also would totally agree with you.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

ok, well yeah. that's stupid. still not important enough of a thing to me to really complain about, but yeah...doesn't make sense.

 

[alec]

You know what always bothered me about Fallout?
That you could get turned into a sieve by some raider's shotgun, yet you could somehow magically reverse the effect of the shotgun by pumping some Stimpaks into your system. I mean, what was that all about? If I had any modding talent, I'd mod Stimpaks right out, 'cause they make no sense at all. I mean: isn't Fallout supposed to be "naturalistic"? And where do the empty Stimpaks go anyway? What, do they magically disappear or something? Does your character eat them? And what's with a leather vest that is missing a sleeve giving you some bonus to your defense? Huh? Skin is leather as well, and you don't see skin magically repel bullets now do you?

Seriously, guys: this is nitpicking. And it's starting to look pretty dumb. Potions and objects that alter your stats have been part of rpg's from the very start. As long as the objects don't mess with the setting (i.e. magic missile scrolls instead of a magazine on revolvers in Fallout), they are simply part of stock rpg game mechanics. Play your classics, for Christ's sake.

 

[Sam Ecorners]

I lold

Also, I kinda like that that complaining is limited to minuscule details. It means that mostly everything else seems right. It's a far cry from August 2008.

 

[alec]

There's still a huge, huge problem with the setting in NV.

This discussion also makes me sorta wonder what kind of roleplayers you guys are 'cause you make it sound like the cries of item hoarders and jack-of-all-trades, to be honest. Here's some help: if you don't like the magazines, don't read them. Seriously. There's tons of drugs in the Fallout games, yet I never use them because I find them to unbalance my game. Does that mean I start whining about how unfair it is that some drug makes you smarter even though junkies in a "naturalistic" setting are usually brainless mofos? No. I simply don't use them by roleplaying a drugfree character. Tadaaa!

Don't like the labcoat? Don't wear it. Go into the wasteland naked, 'cause in a world as "naturalistic" as the world of Fallout, garments have long since broken down and are no longer manufactured and transported all over the continent.

See how you can roleplay with the objects presented to you in the gameworld? That's something you can't do with a big friggin' rollercoaster cramping up the horizon. Even though rust is very common in the Fallout world, you're not able to command the rust to tear that rollercoaster down, 'cause it shouldn't be there. Similarly you can't roleplay the neon signs being not there, right in your face.

Instead of attacking those mags, you should maybe mention how it completely pales in comparison to the FPS game mechanics which have been streamlined so that it is YOUR twitchy thumb that defines the outcome of your battles and not your ingame character's expertise with a gun. See, mistakes in the setting and humongous blunders in the game mechanics are worth pointing a finger to. Things like potions and stat altering stuff is so basic to the world of roleplaying games that it is just stupid to criticize them as much as you guys do. Especially seeing as how magazines have always been part of Fallout (the "book" that boosts your small guns skill is a mag, as far as I know).

 

[Sam Ecorners]

I think that rollercoaster still standing is fine as long as it's not working. Hell, if the building next to it is standing, why wouldn't a rollercoaster? It's a desert, not much mold or vegetation there to destroy it.

As of game mechanics, I don't see them being streamlined: we now how DR and DT, Dam and DPS, strength requirements for weapons and various ammo types. If anything, game mechanics are moving closer toward RPGs than in F3

 

[Crni Vuk]

Yes, books work like before and now there are also the magazines.

I mean I am just specualting here ... but if you get some skills from reading magazines should one not get at least SOMETHING from reading the cats paw magazine ? ~ for the case it would be in.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

should one not get at least SOMETHING from reading the cats paw magazine ? ~ for the case it would be in.

you don't get something after reading the cats paw, you leave something behind.

 

[Crni Vuk]

finally we pushed this magazine discussion in a meaningful direction

 

[alec]

I think that rollercoaster still standing is fine as long as it's not working. Hell, if the building next to it is standing, why wouldn't a rollercoaster? It's a desert, not much mold or vegetation there to destroy it.

As of game mechanics, I don't see them being streamlined

I wrote "FPS game mechanics" and yes, they have been streamlined for a more immersive experience. Listen in at 1:50:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klixN7DOLhc[/youtube]

It has been stated by the devs as well, AFAIK, that FPS game mechanics will be a lot smoother. Now it'll play as smooth as, say, Call of Duty, and then they've added some rpg elemnts and 6,000,000,000 dialogue lines to have jaws drop and buy their baby. uh, I mean Bethesda's baby.

If anything, game mechanics are moving closer toward RPGs than in F3

They probably will, combat aside. Which still begs the question: who is trying to survive in this ROLEPLAYING game? You or the character you are roleplaying? If NV is a step "forward" when compared to F3, it'll still be two steps backwards from the original game. Which means it'll be less of an rpg than what I'm used to. Which is not good.

finally we pushed this magazine discussion in a meaningful direction

This is not the Order.

 

[Sam Ecorners]

I wrote "FPS game mechanics" and yes, they have been streamlined for a more immersive experience. Listen in at 1:50:

Which really means fuck all. Marketing speak for "ZOMG we gots iren sites LOL"

 

[Meh]

You know what always bothered me about Fallout?
That you could get turned into a sieve by some raider's shotgun, yet you could somehow magically reverse the effect of the shotgun by pumping some Stimpaks into your system.

The shotgun blasts reduce your HP/general condition. That's like the most abstract thing ever. You could start talking about sieve when you start getting crippled limbs, but then again stimpaks won't heal them. It's a matter of suspension of disbelief. I don't buy any "Hmm, I'm gonna read this mag now but don't memorize it like I did with that book earlier." or "Just because games have always had it." explanations. Stimpak is filled with chemicals which heal you - the setting allows it, even if it is out of place in our world. Reading is general event, how on earth I'm supposed to turn it into some magical 5 minute boost? I think I specifically let the option open IT'S UP FOR OWN PERSONAL FUCKING INTERPRETATION how one deals with the magazines, since I realize there are billions of things I just can't be arsed to apply logic. Do I have to explain it yet again? But great you went overboard with it.

This discussion also makes me sorta wonder what kind of roleplayers you guys are 'cause you make it sound like the cries of item hoarders and jack-of-all-trades, to be honest.

Which side of the fence you were again? Though we did not discuss it, the gameplay implication of magazine reading seems to lessen the meaning of being specialized.

Here's some help: if you don't like the magazines, don't read them.

lol. That solves a lot!

 

[alec]

snip

I don't reply to insults, so I'll just skip to the polite part:

Though we did not discuss it, the gameplay implication of magazine reading seems to lessen the meaning of being specialized.

That's highly debatable. Maybe a lockpick mag here and there and a gun mag now and then will enable you to pour all your points into Speech, Barter and Doctor and specialize as a peaceful, talkative person without having to die every five minutes or so.
You know?
Just like drinking a Potion of Intellect in Arcanum helps me to put an extra 10 points into Electricty and specialize, rather than waste my points on a prerequisite. Just like buying tech manuals enables me to dabble with the other sciences while still being able to pour all my points into the stuff I feel like specializing in.
You know?
That doesn't make my character a jack-of-all-trades. That word means something else entirely. I'm serious.

 

[x'il]

ungrateful

I don't understand this. What has gratefulness or not to factor into any of this? they're trying to sell this to us (and are getting paid for it) not giving it to us for free. Whatever improvements they may implement that is to our liking must be seen as a selling point, not a favor.

Don't like the labcoat? Don't wear it. (...)

True, you have an option to do that, but pretending that unbalancing game mechanics aren't there does not make a game better.

There's still a huge, huge problem with the setting in NV(...)

Oh yes i agree completely about the setting...

...and don't forget the fucking romans.

Regarding this magazine stuff, i don't really care, but i think it reeks of 'easy mode'; something to get you there without having to worry about the negative side effects of using drugs.