Firearms and their relation to crime figures
- Thread starter .Pixote.
- Start date
Robbery isn't the target of gun control. If I'm going to shoot someone, whether or not they're armed doesn't really change anything. And is this really the area where people want to kill each other? Again, wouldn't it be a greater problem that these friendly areas are supplying more violent ones?
The reason prohibiton doesn't work with drugs and alchol is because such things are easy to smuggle and/or produce. How would supply meet demand in the case of firearms?
The reason prohibiton doesn't work with drugs and alchol is because such things are easy to smuggle and/or produce. How would supply meet demand in the case of firearms?
34thcell said:
The low estimate on the number of firearms owned by civilians in the U.S. is 213 million. It's probably shy by about another 60 million. We have more guns than cars. Seriously.
Remember our borders that shouldn't be controlled because it's mean to mexicans and canadians? You can very easily transport crates of firearms, instead of a load of wetbacks, in your truck across a border as porous as ours.
But, if you were me, you wouldn't be worried about that - you'd have guns the government has no record of at all...
34thcell said:
Can someone find those pictures of chechnian home made weapons?
guns no problem
but the right powder/percussion caps would be a problem in the long term i think
DammitBoy said:34thcell said:
The low estimate on the number of firearms owned by civilians in the U.S. is 213 million. It's probably shy by about another 60 million. We have more guns than cars. Seriously.
Remember our borders that shouldn't be controlled because it's mean to mexicans and canadians? You can very easily transport crates of firearms, instead of a load of wetbacks, in your truck across a border as porous as ours.
But, if you were me, you wouldn't be worried about that - you'd have guns the government has no record of at all...
And yet there is a continued demand for firearms, legal and otherwise. Defending your house is of course no problem (provided you have some ammunition), but how does the gangster supply a war effort? Mexico? My impression was that Mexico has quite strict gun control, and that the only guns here were smuggled in from US. Am I wrong?
As far as homebrew weapons are concerned, a drop in killing efficiency is still probably a good result. As opposed to drugs, where the killing efficiency is increased.
Wintermind
Vault Senior Citizen
Mexico in theory has strict gun control. You need a permit that you can only get from being a government employee. However you can get the permit from the gunstore, which is technically an armory that sells stuff to government employees.
Since the mexican governemnt can't actually admit it's the most corrupted government in the world, they say that ALL the guns the cartels use to viciously murder everything that looks at them wrong.
And, DamnitBoy, if you had actually told me why I should google it, I might have.
Since the mexican governemnt can't actually admit it's the most corrupted government in the world, they say that ALL the guns the cartels use to viciously murder everything that looks at them wrong.
And, DamnitBoy, if you had actually told me why I should google it, I might have.
Wintermind
Vault Senior Citizen
There's plenty of guns from America in Mexico, but theres' far more that were actually A) bought from us or B) stolen from some South American country we gave them too/sold them too.
With the USA beeing the TOP manufacture of weapons and in "legal" trading of firearms. Why would they have to get much of them from Mexico ? Just curious.
I think one has to seperate the civlian and military market. As there is no civilian market really for military equipment like Rocketlunchers or heavy machineguns for example. Yet such weapons are used by criminal drug cartels in Mexico.
*Edit
Something that people forget with restrictions for weapons is that you have with laws a fundament for the legal system. Different situations require different decisions. In areas where you know that many crimal organisations use and trade heavy weapons you need restrictions for them so that the state or police has some base to work with. You cant arrest people if it is allowed to use machineguns for example. This is assuming a situation in Mexico with the police and military beeing in constant fighting with criminal organisations.
I think one has to seperate the civlian and military market. As there is no civilian market really for military equipment like Rocketlunchers or heavy machineguns for example. Yet such weapons are used by criminal drug cartels in Mexico.
*Edit
Something that people forget with restrictions for weapons is that you have with laws a fundament for the legal system. Different situations require different decisions. In areas where you know that many crimal organisations use and trade heavy weapons you need restrictions for them so that the state or police has some base to work with. You cant arrest people if it is allowed to use machineguns for example. This is assuming a situation in Mexico with the police and military beeing in constant fighting with criminal organisations.
Guys, I think language barriers are causing some confusion here, I can barely understand half of the last three posts due to sentence structure, missing nouns and verbs.
About Mexico and guns as it relates to crime in the U.S.;
The cartels are getting the majority of their weapons from the mexican military. Either buying them from corrupt military personnel or by shooting soldiers and taking their weapons.
They also buy them from the huge central/south american military arms blackmarket. The majority of these arms were made in the USA, bought by the U.S. government and then distributed to our allies militaries in central/south america.
These are firearms that U.S. citizens are not allowed to own because they are selectfire (machineguns) manufactured after our machine gun laws went into affect. Why would a drug cartel member come to the U.S. to pay $30,000 for a machinegun he can get for next to nothing in central america?
What this illustrates is the fact that bans and prohibition do not work and that any law is easily circumvented by a determined criminal.
The idea that the drug cartels need to come across the border to find weapons is hilareous, and would be funny if nobody was buying the false media hype nonsense.
maybe because the US is the worlds top seller in arms ?
well I thought it is common knowledge that among Great Britain, France, China, Rest of Europe and Russia the US are the worlds bigest traders for arms. So ... I guess its not far away to assume that Mexico (or other nations) will get their weapons one way or another from those sources. It doesnt mean that all nations will get for example 40% of their weapons from the US or 13% from Russia. It depends on the economical situation, the state, the relation it has with others etc. For example India was always a very close partner with Russia. Israel with the US, Arabia with France and Britain and so on. But many times nations buy equipment from several nations. The Iraq for example had French equipment like Dassault Mirage fighter jets and Soviet tanks like the T-70 or T-80. I would not be surprised if Mexico gets a good part of the small arms from the US. Either by the "white" or "black" market.
Arms sales (agreements), by Supplier, 2002-2009 (in billions of constant 2009 U.S. dollars)
Supplier Total Sales in US Dollars (billions) Percent of total sales
United States 166.278 40%
Russia 73.965 18%
France 35.175 8%
United Kingdom 29.379 7%
China 13.652 3%
Germany 19.742 5%
Those numbers are from 2009
Wikipedia as well claims the US to be the bigest dealer.
World's largest arms exporters
Interesting but I have no clue if the source is true
Mexico: Economics and the Arms Trade
(...)
For several years now, Mexican officials have been making public statements that more than 90 percent of the arms used by criminals in Mexico come from the United States. That number was echoed last month in a report by the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) on U.S. efforts to combat arms trafficking to Mexico (see external link).
(...)
By me: It is clear that those numbers are NOT correct and bloated. But fact is that guns are traded in exchange for drugs. Even the US gouvernement is trying to fight that. I think it goes without a saying that accurate numbers about the blackmarket are almost impossible to get considering the nature of the "black" market beeing rather intransparent. Anyway
(...)
Clearly, the issue of U.S. guns being sent south of the border is a serious one, but STRATFOR does not believe that there is sufficient evidence to support the claim that 90 percent (or more) of the cartels’ weaponry comes from the United States. The data at present is inclusive — the 90 percent figure appears to be a subsample of a sample, so that number cannot be applied with confidence to the entire country. Indeed, the percentage of U.S. arms appears to be far lower than 90 percent in specific classes of arms such as fully automatic assault rifles, machine guns, rifle grenades, fragmentation grenades and RPG-7s. Even items such as the handful of U.S.-manufactured LAW rockets encountered in Mexico have come from third countries and not directly from the United States.
However, while the 90 percent figure appears to be unsubstantiated by documentable evidence, this fact does not necessarily prove that the converse is true, even if it may be a logical conclusion. The bottom line is that, until there is a comprehensive, scientific study conducted on the arms seized by the Mexican authorities, much will be left to conjecture, and it will be very difficult to determine exactly how many of the cartels’ weapons have come from the United States, and to map out precisely how the black, white and gray arms markets have interacted to bring weapons to Mexico and Mexican cartels.
Read more: Mexico: Economics and the Arms Trade | STRATFOR
Arms sales (agreements), by Supplier, 2002-2009 (in billions of constant 2009 U.S. dollars)
Supplier Total Sales in US Dollars (billions) Percent of total sales
United States 166.278 40%
Russia 73.965 18%
France 35.175 8%
United Kingdom 29.379 7%
China 13.652 3%
Germany 19.742 5%
Those numbers are from 2009
Wikipedia as well claims the US to be the bigest dealer.
World's largest arms exporters
Interesting but I have no clue if the source is true
Mexico: Economics and the Arms Trade
(...)
For several years now, Mexican officials have been making public statements that more than 90 percent of the arms used by criminals in Mexico come from the United States. That number was echoed last month in a report by the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) on U.S. efforts to combat arms trafficking to Mexico (see external link).
(...)
By me: It is clear that those numbers are NOT correct and bloated. But fact is that guns are traded in exchange for drugs. Even the US gouvernement is trying to fight that. I think it goes without a saying that accurate numbers about the blackmarket are almost impossible to get considering the nature of the "black" market beeing rather intransparent. Anyway
(...)
Clearly, the issue of U.S. guns being sent south of the border is a serious one, but STRATFOR does not believe that there is sufficient evidence to support the claim that 90 percent (or more) of the cartels’ weaponry comes from the United States. The data at present is inclusive — the 90 percent figure appears to be a subsample of a sample, so that number cannot be applied with confidence to the entire country. Indeed, the percentage of U.S. arms appears to be far lower than 90 percent in specific classes of arms such as fully automatic assault rifles, machine guns, rifle grenades, fragmentation grenades and RPG-7s. Even items such as the handful of U.S.-manufactured LAW rockets encountered in Mexico have come from third countries and not directly from the United States.
However, while the 90 percent figure appears to be unsubstantiated by documentable evidence, this fact does not necessarily prove that the converse is true, even if it may be a logical conclusion. The bottom line is that, until there is a comprehensive, scientific study conducted on the arms seized by the Mexican authorities, much will be left to conjecture, and it will be very difficult to determine exactly how many of the cartels’ weapons have come from the United States, and to map out precisely how the black, white and gray arms markets have interacted to bring weapons to Mexico and Mexican cartels.
Read more: Mexico: Economics and the Arms Trade | STRATFOR
Crni Vuk said:
That statement wouldn't be true even if you changed it to say, "90% of the weapons were manufactured in the U.S."
I completely addressed this in my last post. There is also a huge blackmarket for firearms to central america from asia. Cuba as a conduit for the USSR funneled millions of arms into central and south america.
To believe that report, you have to ignore all of that common knowledge.
No one except for the Mexican Gouvernement eventually really claimed that anyway and its more then obvious that this claim was more or less politicaly motivated. Like the article I linked said as well. But thats not even the point. Point is that the US and Mexico have here a few relations. Drugs for Weapons for example. And that the US is the top manufacturer and dealer with arms world wide. Thats all I am saying. You can ramble and mention how "good" weapons are all day. But the world isnt just about your home or the US and its civilians which buy the one or other firearm because it has a shiny look. I am not even that naive to say that weapons are "just" dangerous. A machinegun on some desk isnt more dangerous then a butter knife. But fact is it's a moraly questionable buisness. And many people earn a lot with it either over the white, gray or black market which is very hard to track. Including the US arms industry which has a long history of giving their weapons to who ever can pay for it regardles if they end in some military barracks, the hands of 12 year old africans or some drug cartel. Maybe some people dont care. Fine. So be it. But as said the US and Mexico have here some relation.DammitBoy said:
Did I said the US is worse compared to them ? One ilegal firearm in the hand of the wrong people like criminals or child soldiers is already to much. But you know. Regarding the UN conference for controling firearms it was the US which had a problem with it while most other nations feelt fine with the contract. Thus we still dont have any clear regulations regarding world wide arms trade.DammitBoy said:
Crni Vuk said:
Completely incorrect. The Obama administration supported the claim and has harrassed legal gun owners who live in border states for buying more than one gun in a day. A legal business transaction, but that doesn't stop them from trying to go around the law. Additionally, the media has used that false report over and over and continues to support it as fact.
Crni Vuk said:
Fuck the UN. Any nation that wants to surrender their citizens rights to that cesspool of incompetent boobs get what they deserve. How has Libya being on the UN human rights council worked out for libyans lately?
The USA is part of the world. Not the world of the USA.DammitBoy said:Fuck the UN. Any nation that wants to surrender their citizens rights to that cesspool of incompetent boobs get what they deserve. How has Libya being on the UN human rights council worked out for libyans lately?
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Humorless sanctimony, thy name is NMA.
Crni Vuk said:The USA is part of the world. Not the world of the USA.DammitBoy said:Fuck the UN. Any nation that wants to surrender their citizens rights to that cesspool of incompetent boobs get what they deserve. How has Libya being on the UN human rights council worked out for libyans lately?
For the time being, the world is still our bitch - hopefully that will end soon and we'll pull back from the insanity of trying to babysit all the tards in the world and buying off the most murderous assholes in the world.
Regardless of those facts, the point is that the UN is a failed endeavor. I think we ought to kick the fuckers out of new york, withdraw from the UN, declare it null and void, knock down the buildings and build a new disney world. New York needs the tourism dollars.