Firearms and their relation to crime figures

I am curious do you really believe what you writte sometimes ? The world is your biatch ? Well things dont look like that at the moment. It is even more likely that you are the biatch of the chinese (or soon enough anyway). But hey. Believe what you want to believe and continue to sit out the situation in your glass house. By the way dont forget to throw around some more stones.
 
DammitBoy do you believe in Democracy - one person one vote...the US Government pretends to believe in it, until they enter the UN, then it's fuck that rubbish. Veto here, veto there...150 countries could pass a motion through the assembly, but once it reaches the security council the US veto's it...that's Democracy for you.

On a side issue I heard that China is dismissive of any attempts at reducing it's nuclear arsenal...China wants a modern nuclear arsenal as large as the US's and Russia's, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. That should make some interesting vetoes in the UN security council.
 
No one claime the United Nations are perfect or that they are even anything close to a "world gouvernement" (very far from it). But it helps to keep diplomatic relations. And to keep the dialogue even with those nations that we do not see as "white" or "clean". Even if just to know what their position is on certain matters like regulations or embargos or what ever else.
 
Crni Vuk said:
No one claime the United Nations are perfect or that they are even anything close to a "world gouvernement" (very far from it). But it helps to keep diplomatic relations. And to keep the dialogue even with those nations that we do not see as "white" or "clean". Even if just to know what their position is on certain matters like regulations or embargos or what ever else.

Please list all the wonderful things the UN has accomplished in the last decade. Don't forget to include UN forces raping children in africa. :roll:

Don't forget Libya's contribution to human rights because they were included in the dialogue. :roll:

Don't forget the "oil for food" corruption scandal. :roll:
 
what did you said ? Are we throwing again stones outside of our glasshouse DB. Hmmm ?

I am no fan of the UN. But it's better to at least "try" to get people to the table. Also how many times has the US been responsible for derailing decisions in the UN ? It is obvious that the UN can only be as good like the nations inside of it. But one has to start somewhere. You act like there is always either "good" or "bad" and there is never ever a possibilty for anything "inbetween". You also always criticize when people even just TRY do something. What should we do then ? Stay outside and pretend the troubles of others never concern us ? I am not naive. But I mean c'mon. Do really want to start throwing dirt around ? Going to play the game that way ? I doubt your nation would stay clean afterwards.
 
I didn't say the U.S. was innocent, or without fault.

I said the UN is irrelevant and doesn't work. It's corrupt, toothless, and fails in it's mission statement.

I'm still waiting for you to show any kind of proof that the UN has any value whatsoever, so far - you've listed several reasons why it doesn't work.

Note: because it makes you feel good for trying is not a legitimate reason for the UN to exist
 
I don't think anyone would deny the UN has its flaws, but are you saying the world would be better off without it? And if you are, do you mean right now or do you mean over all of its existence?
 
DammitBoy said:
I didn't say the U.S. was innocent, or without fault.

I said the UN is irrelevant and doesn't work. It's corrupt, toothless, and fails in it's mission statement.

I'm still waiting for you to show any kind of proof that the UN has any value whatsoever, so far - you've listed several reasons why it doesn't work.

Note: because it makes you feel good for trying is not a legitimate reason for the UN to exist

I am somewhat afraid to discuss that topic with you because I have no clue what you count as "value" whatsoever. There have been studies about the effectivness of the UN which have shown positive and negative effects. Now it is the nature of conflicts, tensions and political affairs that it is not always easy to judge the situation where you can say "this is fixed letz move on!". And I think that is exactly the kind of answer you expect so you can simply say "see! It doesnt help ANYTHING because it is not a clear result" or you might even come up with some UN soldier who raped children or something like that. No clue. As I sai. I am not a fan of the UNO and I do question the effectivness as well. But I am not an expert when it comes to political decisions and I doubt you're neither. So just throwing out of the window because you feel frustrated or someting might not be the best of all solutions either. The UN is a very large organisation with many sub institutions and smaller branches which use it as platform for their research and help. Not everything is always just black or just white you know.

Also I am curious what you think about kharnifex questions.
 
Brother None said:
I don't think anyone would deny the UN has its flaws, but are you saying the world would be better off without it? And if you are, do you mean right now or do you mean over all of its existence?

I mean right now.

It's in the best interests of the U.S. to kick the UN out of New York, withdraw from it's membership, declare the UN bankrupt of ideals, morals, relevance, value, or purpose.

Additionally, the U.S. should demand payment on all the funds owed it by the UN and UN member nations.

Tearing down those crappy ugly buildings and building a Disney themepark would make the world a better place.
 
That is some of the most prime real-estate in the world right there on the river in Manahttan, tax free. Gorgeous spot. But I'm pretty sure US embassies and whatnot abroad are tax exempt too. It's pretty stark how it's across the street from one of Trump's buildings there, when you consider the disparity in tax revenue generated by one and not the other.
A lot of foreign countries have settled out of court with the city for millions owed, in them trying to hide all kinds of shit behind the aegis of tax exemption/immunity.

But why stop with them? How much revenue are we losing by not hitting the churches and synagogues with property taxes and all that? There's billions sitting on the table right there.
 
Cimmerian Nights said:
But why stop with them? How much revenue are we losing by not hitting the churches and synagogues with property taxes and all that? There's billions sitting on the table right there.

I concur completely. The idea that this; "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" meant that churches shouldn't pay taxes on revenue is absurd.

It is patently obvious that the founders meant the government should not establish it's own form of religion, like the Church of England. It meant that people should be free to practice their own religion as they pleased.

It never meant anything more. The idea that multi-billion dollar industries with their own televison networks should be exempt from taxation is retarded.
 
DammitBoy said:
It never meant anything more. The idea that multi-billion dollar industries with their own televison networks should be exempt from taxation is retarded.

Mmmmm *religion = money*...nice.

l-ron-hubbard_2.jpg
 
I agree, tax the fuck out of the church. Those pricks are making a fortune being PR people for God.

That said, old Supreme Court addage, that which you can tax you can destroy applies here. So the churches don't get taxed because of the danger of their destruction.

That said, I think this bullshit. NGOs and non-profits have to prove that they contribute a public benefit to get tax exempt status, and they are limited in certain activities that compete with business. So if a Christian TV station sells commercial airtime, or sells condos that compete iwth private condos, then they should be taxed.

As for the guns and crime- Wikipedia actually has a few nice charts on this that are worth checking out-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

Check out this map-
UCRVioCrim06.jpg


Are not a lot of the states in the red state that also have pretty easy gun control laws?

Overall, Dammitboy is right- violent crime has gone down or stayed normal despite gun sales. Guns alone are not the problem.

Still, some states clearly have more problems with gun violence than others.

If you look a bit further, the problem is the disparity of who is getting murdered. If you look at the data, victims and criminals of homicide are largely black. So a lot of the gun crime is inner city and related to poverty.

A lot of the gun advocates are white middle class or rural folks.

Thus the problem is cultural and is part of the "culture wars" in the US.

If you want to reduce homicide rates, then you have to figure out how to deal with that inner city homicide rate. That, in turn, has more to do with the limited economic opportunities and development in US cities, a problem we've had since the recessions of the 1970s, compounded with spread of drugs and criminal gangs. Legalizing hard drugs isn't the answer, because then people would just kill themselves with drugs than guns while at the same time the otherwise investable capital that drugs consumes would still flow out of the city.

Does that mean guns don't matter? Of course they matter. But they matter in different ways depending on the population.

White folks generally don't suffer too much homicide. When there is homicide that is gun related, its usually acquaintance related. Victims are often males but relations of violence are often males killing females. To put it another way, women are often the victims and men often the victimizers.

(A good reason for having a heavily armed female population is the potential for more dead wife abusers).

In the inner city, Black folks getting shot are either involved in or victims of drug related crimes or ancillary crimes that result from the poverty of that community. Sure many of these urban areas regulate guns and thus make it easier to arrest criminals who carry illegal guns. But a lot of those guns come from out of state sources or out of city sources. SOme guns are stolen, but that just begs the question of how much regulation should exist to stop guns from getting stolen.

When you have gangs looking through cars with detectors searching for weapons, than its kind of stupid for people to keep guns in their cars.

Guns and drug dealing (at least hard drugs) go together. Guns are essential to the drug business because of the need for self-help on matters of security. You need them. And because of the nature of competition, there is a likelihood of easy violence. This is, essentially, the politics of the feud.

It used to be that folks would have disagreement would settle it with fists or, if it was really bad, a knife. Now its guns. The result is that guns make such violence more lethal.

That's not to say that there are other ways of killing a person, or if a person wanted to kill you and they didn't have a gun, they'd find a different way. All it suggests is that guns make violence more lethal.

Dammitboy will say, "What about Kennesaw" but we've had that discussion before. There are plenty of cities with the same demographics and different gun control regimes. That guns purchased in Kennesaw (an easy to buy place) find themselves in hard to buy guns places (like New York) suggests that in a country with extensive trade across state lines, individual state regulations of guns won't stop guns themselves.

That said, the map is interesting. A lot of easy gun owning states have a lot of violence.

The question isn't so much that homicide rates and crime rates have gone down. The question can be also be- do guns make any difference? Would homicide rates go further down with fewer guns on the market.

And yes, regulation increases the costs of getting guns to drug dealing gangs. They don't like to spend money on guns if they don't have to. Drug gang lords usually don't like to go to war if they don't have too. Its bad business. But if gangstas had to pay $600 for a pistol rather than $50 for a pistol, we might have less homicide. If gangstas were likely to go to jail for longer terms if they were caught with guns than if they didn't carry, then we might see greater reluctance among dealers.

Note also that the victimizers are often black. So are the victims. Often whites will get guns to protect themselves from criminals. The criminals they imagine are probably black. That said, the level of victimization of whites by blacks is pretty low, but perhaps that has more to do with the divisions between black and white communities.

As for Mexico getting guns. Yes, they get guns from border dealers. But would stopping the flow of guns from the US to Mexico change things in Mexico? Doubtful. The Mexicans can get guns from other sources. If you can get an AK-47 in parts of Africa for $45 or a few bags of rice, then how are you going to stop the flow of guns into Mexico?

As for US weapon sales- I would be careful with those figures. US sells a lot of guns, but I am not sure about small arms or even how often those small arms are regulated. We also sell a lot of big ticket items too= tanks, airplanes, advanced systems.

One thing for sure, there is a surplus of small arms in the global market. Organized criminals, insurgents and other specialists in violence are not without alternative sources of supply.
 
welsh said:
Overall, Dammitboy is right- violent crime has gone down or stayed normal despite gun sales...

I can't stress enough how correct Welsh is in using this sentence and how all of you will benefit from using it more often. :mrgreen:

FBI Crime Lab: Preliminary Semiannual Uniform Crime Report, January-June, 2010

Preliminary figures indicate that, as a whole, law enforcement agencies throughout the Nation reported a decrease of 6.2 percent in the number of violent crimes brought to their attention for the first 6 months of 2010 when compared with figures reported for the same time in 2009. The violent crime category includes murder, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. The number of property crimes in the United States from January to June of 2010 decreased 2.8 percent when compared with data from the same time period in 2009. Property crimes include burglary, larceny-theft, and motor vehicle theft. Arson is also a property crime, but data for arson are not included in property crime totals. Figures for 2010 indicate that arson decreased 14.6 percent when compared to 2009 figures from the same time period.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/preliminary-crime-in-the-us-2009

Washington, DC (APwireservice) - Data released by the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) for the year reported 14,033,824 NICS Checks for the year of 2009, a 10 percent increase in gun purchases from the 12,709,023 reported in 2008.

So far that is roughly 14,000,000+ guns bought last year. The total is probably more as many NICS background checks cover the purchase of more than one gun at a time by individuals. To put it in perspective that is more guns than the combined active armies of the top 21 countries in the world. countries by number of troops

Of the NICS background checks preformed less than and average .005% were denied, showing, overwhelmingly, that law abiding American citizens are the ones buying guns and that criminals are getting their guns elsewhere.

nics-background-check-2009.jpg


Looking at the numbers, for every single year since 1998 there has been an increase or level number of firearm purchases and a corollary drop in violent crime.
 
Ok, Dammitboy, but that also suggests that background checks also work to reduce gun violence.

Personally, I don't buy that.

But then, if you are going to make the argument that guns alone don't cause crime, you can't really say that guns prevent crime either. Rather, all you can really argue is that guns alone don't cause a rise in crime.

That still begs for a more sophisticated argument. For instance, that correlation doesn't clash with the fact that gun related homicides are one of the top ten killers in the US, or that gun-related homicide isn't a problem, or even explains why we have the victimization we do.

I have no problem with the idea that gun sales or gun ownership alone doesn't lead to violence in the specific case or gun violence as a social problem.

But I can't see why the pro-gun folks have a problem acknowledging that guns do kill a lot of people and that some practical policies might reduce the level of gun related violence.

What usually happens is the pro-gun folks see every potential policy that might make guns safer and reduce gun violence as a covert effort to their right to arms.

I don't see the problem of trying to keep guns out of the hands of criminals or trying to reduce the level of gun related homicide.
 
The reall issue is that DB is simplifing the topic like as in his mind all criminals are the same or have the same motivation - Hence why "laws" in his eyes do not prevent crimes when it is a fact that some laws definetly prevent crimes.
 
welsh said:
If you are going to make the argument that guns alone don't cause crime, you can't really say that guns prevent crime either. Rather, all you can really argue is that guns alone don't cause a rise in crime.

Why can't I? If gun control folks say less guns equal less crime and I can show facts that more guns have been purchased while gun crime and violent crime have dropped, it applies to their theory.

It also defeats their claims. 14 million guns added in one year and in the same year crime drops another 6% over the previous year, that dropped from the previous year and so on and so on.

It makes their claim invalid.

----

And yes crni - I can easily state that no law ever stopped a crime. If a person wants to kill somebody, they will not be concerned with gun laws, which is lower on the scale of criminal acts than the one they are already willing to break.

If you are willling to murder, tresspassing is no biggie and an illegal weapon is even less worriesome. If I'm a drug dealer already, I could care less about a gun charge that always gets dropped when the DA wants to make a deal. If my plan is to steal your car, who cares about being underage with a gun?
 
so in your twisted mind ALL kind of criminals are the same. ALL kind of criminals will always go up to the limit and beyond that. ALL kind of criminals will always do the worst things possible ?

What I dont understand DB is how you can sometimes post such awesome stuff and then at the same time REALLY beliefe in what you writte.

If laws would not prevent SOME for of crime then I cant believe that GUNS would do that either.

Criminals are simply humans too. And as most humans they are capable of resoning or logical thinking. It seems to me the kind of criminals you have in mind are "lunatics" and/or sick people. Those are some totally different group of people. Not all kind of criminals have the same reasons for have the same motivation. So you should really not just throw them all together because there are enough situations of criminals using toy-weapons instead of real guns because they did not wanted to hurt anyone for example even though it might have been just as easy to get some real weapon. Should I assume those people have the same mind or motivation like a person that doesnt konw any limits ?
 
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