Fireside Chat

alec said:
What isn't pointless is, as a creator of cultural... things, to choose the right medium for the message. That's what I'm trying to say: games are simply not the right medium for whatever it is you are after: some sort of intelligent twist, some extra brain candy. You can have intelligent puzzles and you can have some nicely written dialogues, but that's it basically, what else are you waiting for? I actually like the fluidity and spontaneity and simple slapstick of ol' Lucas adventures a lot more than, say, the 'deep' dialogue in Planescape Torment. When games go that way, you end up with Matrix-styled dialogues as seen between Neo and The Architect: pointless ramblings. It has less to do with the writer's capabilities than you seem to think, it's the medium that doesn't let you do those things. Seriously: words are words, games are primarily pictures. The Egyptians weren't able to reach the same level of complexity with their hieroglyphs as we are able to reach with our modern alphabet. And personally, I'd rather have a game designer come up with a good story + plot (which can be very childish or basic even) instead of with some text (a goddamn side-effect in games today dawgunnit) that makes me think deep thoughts. It's just not what games are meant to do. Because they can't. Unless you want to go back to Zork and such. Which you don't, I'm sure.

I support this 100%.

Thinking that gaming is defined by its ability to form a pastiche of other mediums is undercutting gaming itself. Gaming isn't supposed to be cinematic, philosophical, deep, or artistic, gaming is supposed to be a game, it's supposed to be gameplay, yet it seems so very much that there's this underlying desire in the industry for gaming to touch upon the same level of artistry as film or written work in their cultural relevance. That's just not going to happen. You can't make someone think about important existentialist issues while they play a game without sacrificing gameplay, this medium calls for interactivity and attempting to smother that most important aspect with the intricacies of other mediums leads to subpar products.

I could use several examples, Call of Duty 4 obsesses itself with being "cinematic" and providing the player with the feeling of being in a movie but ultimately it sacrifices the things that are most treasured in gaming, it sacrifices variety because the developers decide what will happen, and I don't just mean the storyline, I mean the constant respawning enemies that force the player into advancing in a stoic manner decided by the developers, I mean the incredibly rigid linearity which is even worse than that in Half-Life 2, I mean the incredibly short time it takes to finish the singleplayer campaign, thus limiting the breadth of content available.
And all this was done consciously and willingly. Eventually you get and extremely limited product, that while polished and well done, is so soulless in its execution because it lacks the breadth of interactivity desired in gaming.

Games eventually become lesser things by their obsessions with the goals of other mediums.

There needs to be a shift on focus, games need to be less like movies and more like games. This is primarily why I believe immersion to be an utterly bullshit PR term, immersion is inherent to gaming, back in the early 90's and late 80's immersion meant only one thing, being caught up in the game.
By that definition, Tetris was more immersing than Oblivion or Fallout 3 because it kept people up through the night and had them obsessing over the game. It drew people in, and kept them under.

Now it refers to the realism and the game's ability to suspend disbelief, it's become something annoying and causes developers to focus on an impossible goal. No game provides true immersion, no game removes the disassociation of the player from the controller. While this doesn't have much to do with writing, it has to do with the shifting of focus.

The biggest problem is that most of these development teams are incredibly talented, but they focus on bullshit goals and spend so much time on things that are utterly meaningless to the medium itself, so much that each new AAA release is just like a summer Hollywood blockbuster. People play these games for a month or two and forget about them. No one is going to give a shit about Fallout 3 in the next few years, just like Morrowind has gone under and doesn't really register on people's radar as a popular classic any longer. There are very few games that reach that plateau, stuff like Donkey Kong, Half-Life, Starcraft, Super Metroid, those games are timeless and known by nearly every single gamer, simply because they focused on the right things. They all had incredibly tight gameplay, they all advanced progress in the industry, but most importantly they were all damn good games with tight mechanics and an ability to immerse a player with pure quality of gameplay and not arbitrary techniques that immediately lose their effect after a half-hour of play.

And this is the most controversial point I'll make, the biggest issue here is the prominence of story. If story wasn't masturbated over like it was the most god damn important part of every video game, we really wouldn't have this problem. We wouldn't have developers shoveling money into voice acting, into expensive cut scenes and ridiculous amounts of time ironing out the intricacies of scripted gameplay. These things get in the way, ultimately it's the developer's attempt to create an interactive story that cuts them off at the knees.

I have news for these imbeciles, all the games that managed to create the best interactive stories barely had any plot at all. I'm talking about Ultima IV and its thick dynamic virtue system, its story? Find a book and become the Avatar, simple shit, but everything had some kind of result to an action, your character changed depending on how he interacted with the world. That should be the focus of gaming, dynamics, a changing environment that produces a personal story, events and accomplishments that alter the player's experience.
The thing people remember most about Fallout is not the Master, it isn't Lou or that bitch Lynette, ultimately it's the stories that came from the game itself, because of the variety and depth that was available. People remember getting holes in their back from Ian, they remember Dogmeat getting zapped in the Military Base, they remember laughing as they watched Sulik slam a raider with a Super Sledge and send him sliding across the dirt.
You don't get that anymore, simply because there's less variety, developers sacrifice depth in order to streamline their stories, in order to focus on scripted events and big "epic" bullshit.

You're not going to see that anymore because it gets in the way of their rigid structured "interactive experiences".

Kiss the dream of dynamic interactive gaming goodbye, you can practically kiss the idea of gaming itself goodbye, since everyone seems so obsessed with the idea of storytelling.
But you can blame the gamers for that, the developers, everyone, not just the "gaming journalists."

Every time some thick-headed numbskull calls Final Fantasy VII the best game ever because some shallow two dimensional character died and happened to reduce their twelve year old selves into a sobbing shitpile despite the fact that the whole ordeal was less effective than the Pearl Harbor movie, that's who you can blame really, because they'd much rather shell out their money on a mediocre piece of shit with a "compelling storyline" than a thick indepth complex piece of gaming that will keep them busy for months and have them remember their own accomplishments, not their pathetic alter ego.
 
Ausir said:
Sounds just like movies.

i know you must think you've just said something very clever here, but tell me...who was Fellini selling 8 1/2 to? or Tarkovsky. who was he selling The Mirror to?

listen. i'd love it if video games had more of a multi-faced market, but it doesn't. not anymore.
 
You skipped over Per's post, alec, which is kind of key; your standards simply don't work for me. Besides, you're thinking too narrowly, simply of games as tools to tell linear narrative stories. Could a book or film tell a game in the way Fallout does? Or more importantly, Pathologic? No. Well there's their intellectual niche, then

Edmond Dantès said:
On the topic of the Rybicki Maneuver, I think some of it has also to do with reviewers having a hard time accolading a game with praise that a similar previous game had already received.

That doesn't come close to explaining it. Oblivion never had good voice acting, or good animations, by any standards. Not then, not now. Yet many reviewers didn't note this until Fallout 3 came around.

Edmond Dantès said:
But I don't know in how far game journalism can actually amount to an innovation killer.

"An". It's not nearly as big as "the" innovation killer, which is the way the profit margins are structured on consoles.

Edmond Dantès said:
The emphasis has simply never been on social interactions, or on deep layers of philosophical meanings. Whenever a new game comes out, what is always being touted are the graphics, or in an FPS, the combat AI (like in Half-Life 2, god, that ended up being one hell of a disappointment, AI-wise).

Yeah, but the thing with any industry is that the end of the day, consumers aren't stupid. Innovation is a key term in any business thinking because it is key to long-term development. Right now there is innovation, but it's all keyed on graphics. How sustainable is that, tho'?

Edmond Dantès said:
One reason that games don't get very deep is probably because they simply aren't the work of a single mind, compared to books or movies.

Films are rarely the work of a single mind, and certainly not all deep classics are. Hell, you name Dr Strangelove, which was based on a book, thus inherently not the work of one mind.

Eyenixon said:
Thinking that gaming is defined by its ability to form a pastiche of other mediums is undercutting gaming itself.

Good thing nobody said that, then. In fact, your entire post is not related to the topic of this thread.

I mean, I agree with you, the obsession of game developers with trying to mimic other mediums is terrible, but that's not what we're talking about, dude. You make good points, but again, it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.
 
TwinkieStabllis said:
i know you must think you've just said something very clever here, but tell me...who was Fellini selling 8 1/2 to? or Tarkovsky. who was he selling The Mirror to?

listen. i'd love it if video games had more of a multi-faced market, but it doesn't. not anymore.

Note that your examples are of movies older than video games as a medium are.
 
what difference does that make? all that says is individual video-game developers have yet to reach a point where they've established themselves as culturally or intellectually relevant artists on even a slightly-massive scale. at least not to a point where they can make games for the sake of "art" and hope to make a profit or have a large audience. some make sacrifices, most don't.

there are plenty of modern examples as well, it's not the time-line difference, it is a difference in the medium. there is really no arguing that video-games generally sell to a group of people not overtly concerned with higher thinking or artistic, cultural or intellectual importance.
 
there are plenty of modern examples as well, it's not the time-line difference, it is a difference in the medium. there is really no arguing that video-games generally sell to a group of people not overtly concerned with higher thinking or artistic, cultural or intellectual importance.

Isn't this what people said about cinema in its early years too? Or about pretty much any new medium?
 
Ausir said:
Isn't this what people said about cinema in its early years too? Or about pretty much any new medium?

i don't know. i wasn't there. but are you seriously trying to say we're in the early years of "gaming"?

i mean, we've devolved, Ausir. you of all people should know this.
 
Ausir said:
Isn't this what people said about cinema in its early years too? Or about pretty much any new medium?

Yip. People forget the printing press brought about penny novels and porn together with the classics. Films and games work the same way, it's just that the games industry hasn't evolved enough to grow the niches that bring about the greatest works. Again, the margin model and production cost does make it hard, just like it's been hard for films for much of its history too.

Honestly, nothing ever changes much. It's just models that shift, and allow either for more penetration in the mass, stupid market or the niche, smart market. The level of any medium goes up and down with it.
 
Per said:
Who's Fritz Lang? Meier? Spector? Howard?

c'mon...those guys aren't important and haven't influenced anybody. nor has Eisenstein for that matter.


anyway, this is sort of getting away from the point that videogames or....shall we say "interactive art" has yet to breach the intellectual divide. at best we've got something like Planescape but obviously even that was almost just a "joke" poking fun of itself and all around it.
 
TwinkieStabllis said:
anyway, this is sort of getting away from the point that videogames or....shall we say "interactive art" has yet to breach the intellectual divide. at best we've got something like Planescape but obviously even that was almost just a "joke" poking fun of itself and all around it.

Again, easily the best example of games as art is Pathologic. Only no one has played it. Which, I guess, is typical of art.

But games are obviously not evolving analogous to films. Why would they? Technologically we've gone faster than films had. Intellectually it's going a lot slower.
 
TwinkieStabllis said:
Per said:
Who's Fritz Lang? Meier? Spector? Howard?

c'mon...those guys aren't important and haven't influenced anybody.

Then it will just have to be Shigeru Miyamoto, and it's all your fault.
 
Brother None said:
Technologically we've gone faster than films had. Intellectually it's going a lot slower.

don't you feel there's something terribly, terribly wrong with this though? or is it that we're moving "too fast" at the moment? it seems very symptomatic of the coming generations...no time for art, just pure artificial stimulation.
 
Brother None said:
Again, easily the best example of games as art is Pathologic. Only no one has played it. Which, I guess, is typical of art.

Wasn't Lang's Metropolis a flop?
 
Per said:
Then it will just have to be Shigeru Miyamoto, and it's all your fault.

I love that guy, he's like an Japanese version of an insane white person.

Shigeru Miyamoto said:
Many keys are significant for punctuation, for if you do not use them there is no punctuation for your sentences and they will be indecipherable unless you are Leonardo and you have the Leonardo daVinci code. In Japan we have just received this for the first time and it is hard to come by; it only appears on every bootleg corner of Tokyo next to Bible, Real Ultimate Power book and Ultimate Muscle book. The space key places spaces in between of words; it does not send you into space contrary to popular belief. The shift key however does shift you into turbo like in the Power Rangers: Turbo. A little boy also becomes a full sized shift key if you press it long enough. You should not use both in comjunction, the shift and space. They are mortal enemies as shown by the graphical visual above in the article. To put them together threatens time, space and shift; a reference to this is happening occurs in the documentary about the Ghostbusters entitled The Ghostbusters. Keys contain streams much like the proton packs.

keys.jpg

I'd pay to see that become a movie.
 
Ausir said:
Well, compared to cinema, we're in the 1920s or so, aren't we?

I think we have reached an impasse in that regard. Perhaps games as a medium will reach "maturity" in 10 years or so. And I do believe thegaming industry has/had a few Langs, Milestones, or Meiers, Per. I wish the Spielbergs, Lynchs, Camerons, Tarkovskys, Bergmans, Herzogs, Scorsesses, De Palmas, Kubricks, Scotts and even Burtons or Cohens are not too far to come in the gaming timeline.

What amazes me is that while - at least in my opinion - the average age of the "gamer" has increased, the average age of the games' intended target has lowered dramatically.
 
TwinkieStabllis said:
no time for art, just pure artificial stimulation.

Are you sure you're looking in the right place? Check out what's a little vaguely and sometimes misleadingly labelled casual gaming. Art gets done at the level where one or a few people can amass the resources needed to create a game or gamelet. You just need to sort it out from the ubiquitous crap that exists on every level of everything.
 
TwinkieStabllis said:
don't you feel there's something terribly, terribly wrong with this though? or is it that we're moving "too fast" at the moment? it seems very symptomatic of the coming generations...no time for art, just pure artificial stimulation.
The Birth of a Nation was a huge leap forward artistically for it's cinematography (an important part of the art of movies) but most wouldn't say that it's message is a very great one. Film is a multifaceted thing and to ignore the technology and filming techniques and only focus on the message or plot is foolish. Things move ahead in pieces, gaming has made the proverbial leap that The Birth of a Nation made, the technological leap, and is now waiting for the writing leap to come (or just the time to realize that it has come strive for what made that leap).

The genre of interactive fiction games seems like it's being ignored here. It's a genre which is entirely about the writing and interactivity. Granted, IF games vary in how much you can effect the plot from not at all to a fair amount (I'd argue that the latter is the correct approach because it's dynamic) and none that I know of (can't say I'm a connoisseur of the genre) really use the genre to it's fullest to tell a deeper story but the potential is there. By saying that no game can have great, philosophical, deep, etc. writing is restricting video games to specific genres and ignoring possibilities.

Also plot and story has an important place in games and different levels of focus depending on the genre. I'd say that IF has the most focus with RPGs or adventure games following and action games, specifically FPSes, generally being dead last. I played the beginning of Gears of War 2 with a buddy of mine and we noticed that the game is constantly interrupted and slowed down by cutscenes and their story (fucking holding your ear and walking for radio conversations). We didn't even realize that the cinematic part of the beginning of stage 2 had ended until we died because the game was too busy with story to tell us what the fuck we were supposed to do or even when to start. When you start confusing the player and are constantly slowing down gameplay for story, you've probably got a problem.

I'm with Eyenixon, developers need to start making the story part of the gameplay instead of making it some linear thing that is told over the top of and slowing down gameplay. RPGs like Fallout take both the dialog and the action route, action games should generally take just the action route. A great example of an action game with very little story but which uses story to give the player options of different gameplay options is the arcade D&D games by Capcom. They allow players to fight through different routes to a few different possible final areas through very minimal and unintrusive story, which is so thin and bad that I don't know what it is. It's not the only route to take and games like Devil May Cry which have story at the beginning and end of each level also do it right. Story belongs in natural breaks in action games.

I'm afraid I started rambling and becoming less and less comprehensible and on topic so I'll end it while I'm ahead.
 
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