FO2 Mechanics Overhaul Mod

Discussion in 'Fallout General Modding' started by JimTheDinosaur, Apr 24, 2013.

  1. Zaius238

    Zaius238 Art by Phoenix-Private

    Jul 14, 2007
    It didn't work.
    As you can see, I receive errors:

    I tried deleting patch000 folder and copying all the files to data folder. The morale system seems to work now, even if the chosen one doesn't say anything in combat (for example, in some turns I had to spend more AP to attack than normal).

    But your changes in drugs still don't work. I've used simpack in random people and they ignored me.

    I haven't tested the other things yet. How can I solve these issues?
  2. JimTheDinosaur

    JimTheDinosaur Vault Dweller

    Mar 17, 2013
    Hm.. you do have sfall installed right? I put that in the instructions, but just to check. And it's an install that's just the regular patch, not the unofficial one? If it's yes to both of these say so and I'll make a clean install for myself and see what's going wrong.

    Edit: "I tried deleting patch000 folder and copying all the files to data folder." not a good idea, do you remember if you did the following in this order: remove the patch000.dat from the game folder, make a patch000.dat folder instead, extract the patch000.dat into the folder, put the modding files in the patch000.dat folder?

    Edit2: I went over my original instructions and noticed there's a couple of potentially ambiguous instructions, here's the instructions with ambiguities removed:

    To install you can make a folder titled Patch000.dat in the game directory, use Dat Explorer or another program to extract the original Patch000.dat file in that directory, then put the .int files from the mod in the patch000.dat folder's scripts folder. Now all you should do is write protect the "maps" and "proto" folders of the patch000.dat folder (right click on the folders and go to the permission options).

    Is this what you originally did?

    Sorry for the hassle by the way, I'm generally very bad at giving instructions, can never tell people how to get to an address either.
  3. JimTheDinosaur

    JimTheDinosaur Vault Dweller

    Mar 17, 2013
    Ugh, I only just noticed I'd completely forgotten to include the new dialogue files for the Morale System, and to explain what you should do with the stats.ini for the Fixed HP's. Okay, uploaded a new version, this time with a full install option which has the Patch000.dat folder with all the files already in them in the right order. Here's the new instructions as well:

    To install you can make a folder titled Patch000.dat in the game directory, use Dat Explorer or another program to extract the original Patch000.dat file in that directory, then put the .int files from the mod in the scripts folder. All the mods work seperately, though this does mean that there are some duplicate files. Most of these are identical, except for the Morale System, which has unique versions of many files. So, if you're installing it without the morale system, just install whatever you want in whichever order, but if you're using the morale system you have to install that one last (so overwriting all the previous files). Alternatively, you can just use the Full Install folder to install everything at once. One last step (if you want to use the fixed hp changes), is to add the Stats.ini to the main game folder and go to these lines in sfall's ddraw.ini file:
    ;To change the relationship between SPECIAL stats and derived stats, uncomment the next line
    ; See the stats.ini in the modders pack for an example file
    and uncomment the last line. Now all you should do is write protect the "maps" and "proto" folders (right click on the folders and go to the permission options).
  4. Zaius238

    Zaius238 Art by Phoenix-Private

    Jul 14, 2007
    Unfortunately it still doesn't work, friend.

    Why you ask to extract (all) original patch000 files, if your Full Install folder only have a few folders (there's no way all files are in there)?

    I tried two things:

    1- Install manually, follow the instructions, copy Full Intall folder. It doesnt work.

    2 - Copy Full Install folder to Fallout 2 directory. The only thing that works is text (he says his hands are too heavy, and etc.), morale system doesn't work.

    Maybe you're playing different version of Fallout 2. The only things I've installed here:
    Fallout 2 US Patch (v1.02) ->
    Timeslip sfall 3.0
  5. JimTheDinosaur

    JimTheDinosaur Vault Dweller

    Mar 17, 2013
    Sorry, buddy, but I'm on holidays right now. When I get back in a couple of weeks I'll figure everything out and make the thing compatible with RP/UP to boot.
  6. Glovz

    Glovz Vault Dweller

    Sep 16, 2005
    I have been giving some thought to how AC can be incorporated in a useful way.

    I was thinking the AC value from armor could be used as a percentage that would decrease the chance of a critical hit or the critical damage of a hit.

    It would make sense in a way, as armor gets better so does the AC increase currently, and while the better the armor the bigger of a target you become, the better the armor should get at protecting from critical damage.

    Preventing critical damage can be thought of as either reducing the chance of a critical hit or simply reducing the actual amount of damage.

    I'm not sure which is better at the moment.

    Ammo currently has a AC modifying value which; if armor AC were used as a percentage reduction to critical damage, would finally make sense. Given it could be thought that some ammo might be more damaging to a sensitive area vs another type.

    Right now the AC mod values are placed on ammo that is either expected to travel faster than average (i.e. 2mm EC) or be wide spread (i.e. Flamethrowser fuel), and this would make sense if AC were applied to simply the chance to hit, but if applied to critical damage then the original ammo AC mod values would need to be rethought.

    Maybe this should be split, the AC value for armor affecting critical damage, while the AC mod value of ammo affecting chance to hit. And if so then the AC mod values for ammo would need to be positive rather than negative.

    Again this is all just food for thought right now. :)
  7. JimTheDinosaur

    JimTheDinosaur Vault Dweller

    Mar 17, 2013
    I don't think I agree. Let's go over the damage system:

    Armor DT determines absolute stopping power of the armor: so a 25 damage round against 25 DT gets either stuck in the armor (or ricocheted). A 30 damage round hits home, but doesn't do 5 damage because of DR taking off a big chunk. Why is that? As far as I can tell the reasoning might be that the one represents 5/6th of the momentum being reduced and the other 5/6th of the round's damage being fragmented/deformed away. But I have to admit it's still extremely difficult for me to grasp (which might be why Obsidian just had DT in New Vegas, and also in Project Eternity).

    So, DR is already a questionable reduction. What you're suggesting is a second questionable reduction: the 30 damage round goes through the 25 DT, 5 remains, then a further 3 goes off due to DR, leaving a 2 damage round. This round his a vital spot, say the liver, multiplying it, say, times 6, making 12 damage. Still very light; what's your reasoning for lowering it further?

    I was just considering adapting the AC bonus of ammo to the new formula by making it a bonus To Hit. I think "bullet speed" is a questionable metric for this though; but there's some types of bullets (hollow points for instance) which are more accurate than the alternatives.
  8. Glovz

    Glovz Vault Dweller

    Sep 16, 2005
    Well we might consider that in F2 it's actually the DR value that does the most reduction. If you compare the late game weapons damage range and the all the armor's DT values, you'll see that DT isn't doing as much as you would think.

    Also, armor DR could be thought of as the average damage resistance of the armor, but good armor is going to protect your vital spots better than anything else and thus it could be considered that armor is extra resistant is a few key areas.

    As for ammo, bullet speed could be considered if thought that a bullet that travels extra fast reduce the random chance of the target somehow moving at of the way or rather moving so the spot aimed for is missed.

    So maybe AC could be a bonus to aimed shots?

    I also had a crazy thought in regards to the material of items and how certain types of damage might affect what is being carried.
  9. JimTheDinosaur

    JimTheDinosaur Vault Dweller

    Mar 17, 2013
    Yeah, it does make some sense from a balancing perspective: make DT 50 and everybody's complaining that they can't do any damage, make it DT 25 and heavy ordinance cuts through it like butter. That way, DR as an extra balancing measure makes sense. But I think we've both seen the risk in this approach: lower DT means that, regardless of DR, pipe rifles can do moderate damage to Enclave troopers. This is a problem you wouldn't have with higher DT's and no DR.

    That's gives me an idea though: what if DR becomes the metric for armor bypasses? Decouple it from criticals (so that you don't get the most insane criticals nearly as often) and just have armor bypassing depend on the new DR and location (eyes have bigger chance of bypassing than torso, etc.)?

    But then why is the effect the exact same when shooting a target at point blank range and someone a 100 yards away? I can see bullet speed factoring in in the latter case, but in the former?

    Why not generally?

    Do tell! I always found material to be one of the more interesting aspect of the FO mechanics; they clearly were going somewhere with it (maybe sound when sneaking?), but maybe didn't get around to it.
  10. Glovz

    Glovz Vault Dweller

    Sep 16, 2005
    I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on how DT and DR are used. Have you reviewed what my fix/mod?

    I can understand what you are saying about ammo but now I think we're getting close to the argument of; is this a game or a RL sim, I have always been on the side of game. Meaning some things will always be unbalanced and so mechanics/formula can be acceptable simply when they have more positive than negative affects.

    Thoughts on materials and damage would be along the lines of; an item made of wood being carried while taking fire damage should have a chance of catching fire and thus disappearing from the inventory.

    But this idea might be too much for most to handle and the chance of occurring would have to be very very low, otherwise leading to save/reload madness, and of course there would have to be many exceptions to the rule; such as quest items.
  11. JimTheDinosaur

    JimTheDinosaur Vault Dweller

    Mar 17, 2013
    Heh, yeah I'm probably way too much of a simulationist for most people's tastes. Regardless, if like you said in the other thread armor bypassing is handled outside of the damage code, then none of my plans would be feasible anyway. Only thing I could do is take it out of the critical tables, but then there wouldn't be a way to introduce it separately at some other point. I still think the decoupling would be very important not just from a simulation standpoint (huge piperifle criticals against APA shouldn't be quite that frequent), but it's starting to look like it's impossible.
  12. Glovz

    Glovz Vault Dweller

    Sep 16, 2005
    I was just rethinking AC again, I agree at this point that it's probably best to leave it out from armor. But it should still make some sense as a factor with ammo.

    If AC were used as a positive factor in the to hit calculation for an ammo type that had a wide area of affect, then AC could be seen in some sense to emulate that.

    In this case all ammo would have a 0 AC value except shotgun shells, rockets, and fuel.

    It would then be a matter of figuring out what value is reasonable for each type and if it's negative or positive depending on how its used in your calculation.
  13. JimTheDinosaur

    JimTheDinosaur Vault Dweller

    Mar 17, 2013
    Sure, but it's pointless to use the AC-mod for that (after all, when AC does nothing, an AC mod adjusts nothing as well). The way you'd do it would be to just check for the attacking weapon's ammo in the to hit formula, and adjust accordingly.

    I still haven't done so because I'm not really sure how to go about it. The original just had shotguns have a higher THC at close range, lower at max range, but wouldn't it make sense for spray to have a (relatively) higher THC at long range, and just a lower damage output? Ditto for flamethrowers. Rockets are an even more difficult problem altogether.
  14. Glovz

    Glovz Vault Dweller

    Sep 16, 2005
    I've never dealt with the to hit calculations before so I'm not as familiar with them as you, but I am assuming is that we're talking about the new calculations that you have derived and yes I am saying that AC mod value of ammo be used in a new way that would be completely determined how to implement by you.

    I do understand your concerns, but short of building explicit rules/calculations for each weapon and/or ammo then sometimes the player must accept some imbalance in a game.

    I reviewed again all the changes you have made to the THC and even without any reference to an AC value the problem you just outlined still exists.

    Also, if you want to incorporate range into the damage calculation then that's a larger discussion. We'd need to look at what Timeslip would need to make available beyond what already is to global scripts and go from there.
  15. JimTheDinosaur

    JimTheDinosaur Vault Dweller

    Mar 17, 2013
    I know, but I was just dealing with the practicality of it: changing the AC-mod, having to script this change into the gameworld, then checking for it in the to hit formula, etc. All this is a bigger workaround than the alternative of just checking for the formula.

    Yeah, it was a stupid suggestion I made (I've been out of it for a while I guess). I just remembered that what I wanted to do was make shotguns, including regular ones, burst weapons to simulate the pellet spray. Burst weapons to me always felt (maybe too much) like shotguns: lots of isolated damage up close, spread out limited damage afar. But I'll maybe just end up keeping it the way it was in the original eventually.
  16. Glovz

    Glovz Vault Dweller

    Sep 16, 2005
    Hi Jim, I thought I would add my idea for derived DT/DR values here given if it were to be implemented, it would have to be by you or someone else. I have looked into the scripting and it's beyond me. :(

    Anyway, the idea is below minus calling out which critter ids fall under which groups.

    Rough idea for derived critter DT/DR stats
    1- the critters would have to be grouped
    GROUP A - armor wearing (humans and mutants [not including ghouls])
    --- humans have a base DT/DR of 0/0 for most types of damage, immune to EMP damage type (immunity = 0/500)
    --- mutants have a base resistance to Normal and Explosive damage types, base Normal 3/15, base Explosive 3/15, Fire 0/10, Plasma 0/10, Electric 0/10, Laser 0/10, immune to EMP 0/500
    GROUP B - radiated mutants and experimental creatures (ghouls, floaters, centaurs, wanamingos, deathclaws)
    --- all are better at resisting Normal damage and Explosive damage types; some have specific immunities or vulnerabilities (as per lore), base Normal 3/15 and base Explosive 3/15 for most, all else 0/0 if not otherwise stated
    --- ghouls - immune to EMP 0/500
    --- floaters - no resistance to Fire 0/0 and DT/DR cannot be increased, immune to Electical 0/500, Plasma (electrically charged gas that is also on fire) 25/0 however DR cannot be increased, Laser (light that burners) 5/0 however DR cannot be increased, immune to EMP 0/500
    --- centaurs - Fire 0/5, Plasma 0/5, Electric 0/5, Laser 0/5, immune to EMP 0/500
    --- wanamingos - Normal 6/30, Explosive 6/30, Laser 16/32, Fire 0/7, Plasma 5/14, Electrical 10/20, EMP 100/75 and DT/DR cannot be increased (lore suggests hive-mind thus EMP potential to disrupt/harm)
    --- deathclaws - Normal 5/25, Explosive 5/25, Laser 8/15, Fire 5/15, Plasma 0/10 and DT cannot be increased, Electrical 0/10 and DT cannot be increased, immune to EMP 0/500
    GROUP C - radiated evolved and regular animals (ants, mantis, radscorpions, brahmin, dogs, geckos, rats)
    --- all immune to EMP 0/500
    --- all Normal 1/5, Explosive 1/5
    --- most else 0/0
    --- Fire Geckos ONLY, immune to Fire 0/500, Plasma 25/35, Laser 0/25
    GROUP D - plants
    --- all immune to Electrical 0/500
    --- all immune to EMP 0/500
    --- all Plasma 10/25
    --- all else 0/0
    GROUP E - robots
    --- all EMP 25/50
    --- all Electric 16/20
    --- all Laser 16/40
    --- all Fire 40/60
    --- all Normal 30/50
    --- all Explosive 30/60

    2- only for GROUP A; determined by how they are depicted
    --- no additional DT/DR

    --- Normal 0/0
    --- Explosion 0/0
    --- Laser 0/5
    --- Fire 0/5
    --- Plasma 0/5
    --- Electrical 0/5

    --- Normal 0/10
    --- Explosion 1/10
    --- Laser 0/10
    --- Fire 0/10
    --- Plasma 1/10
    --- Electrical 3/15
    --- EMP 0/5

    --- Normal 1/15
    --- Explosion 2/15
    --- Laser 1/15
    --- Fire 0/15
    --- Plasma 1/15
    --- Electrical 3/25
    --- EMP 0/10

    --- Normal 2/20
    --- Explosion 4/20
    --- Laser 1/20
    --- Fire 0/20
    --- Plasma 1/20
    --- Electrical 3/30
    --- EMP 0/20

    --- Normal 3/20
    --- Explosion 5/20
    --- Laser 2/20
    --- Fire 1/20
    --- Plasma 2/20
    --- Electrical 3/30
    --- EMP 0/25

    --- Normal 5/30
    --- Explosion 15/30
    --- Laser 10/25
    --- Fire 5/15
    --- Plasma 13/15
    --- Electrical 0/0
    --- EMP 0/0

    --- Normal 5/30
    --- Explosion 15/30
    --- Laser 12/25
    --- Fire 7/15
    --- Plasma 15/15
    --- Electrical 0/0
    --- EMP 0/0

    --- Normal 5/30
    --- Explosion 15/30
    --- Laser 15/35
    --- Fire 10/15
    --- Plasma 20/40
    --- Electrical 20/60
    --- EMP 0/100

    --- Normal 8/35
    --- Explosion 18/35
    --- Laser 13/20
    --- Fire 18/20
    --- Plasma 18/25
    --- Electrical 18/35
    --- EMP 0/50

    --- Normal 10/35
    --- Explosion 20/35
    --- Laser 15/20
    --- Fire 20/20
    --- Plasma 20/25
    --- Electrical 20/35
    --- EMP 0/55

    --- Normal 12/40
    --- Explosion 22/40
    --- Laser 17/25
    --- Fire 22/25
    --- Plasma 22/30
    --- Electrical 22/40
    --- EMP 0/60

    --- Normal 13/40
    --- Explosion 23/40
    --- Laser 18/25
    --- Fire 23/25
    --- Plasma 23/30
    --- Electrical 23/40
    --- EMP 0/100

    --- Normal 16/45
    --- Explosion 26/45
    --- Laser 21/30
    --- Fire 26/30
    --- Plasma 26/20
    --- Electrical 26/25
    --- EMP 0/75

    --- Normal 18/45
    --- Explosion 28/45
    --- Laser 23/30
    --- Fire 28/30
    --- Plasma 28/20
    --- Electrical 28/20
    --- EMP 0/75

    --- Normal 18/50
    --- Explosion 28/50
    --- Laser 23/35
    --- Fire 28/35
    --- Plasma 28/25
    --- Electrical 28/25
    --- EMP 0/80

    --- Normal 20/60
    --- Explosion 30/60
    --- Laser 25/40
    --- Fire 30/40
    --- Plasma 30/30
    --- Electrical 30/30
    --- EMP 0/80

    3- each group would need four sub-groups
    increases are to all damage type DT/DR unless there is a specified vulnerability or immunity
    DT=DT+(10-15) (AND/OR) DR=DR+(18-25) OR 80 (whichever is less)

    DT=DT+(3-7) (AND/OR) DR=DR+(7-15) OR 80 (whichever is less)

    DT=DT+(0-1) (AND/OR) DR=DR+(2-5) OR 80 (whichever is less)

    DT=DT-(1-2) (AND/OR) DR=DR-(2-5) OR 80 (whichever is less)

    (FRANK HORRIGAN unfortunately may need to be excluded because I believe he is treated by the game engine as specail; there may be others like this as well, FRANK needs to be investigated)

    Calculation would work something like:
    1- set all the base DT/DR values for each group of critters
    2- take the critters in GROUP A and add the appropriate armor DT/DR values as needed
    3- take groups, split them into the subgroups and add DT/DR values that are based on ST and EN values (unless the critter has a specified vulnerability or immunity), second; this part is tricky, random pick if the critter will get a bonus to DT, DR, or both (neither should not be an option), then randomly choose the value from the assigned range and add it or subtract it from the DT and/or the DR value, the final DR value should not exceed 80 (if total greater than 80 then set to 80)

    Thus you have derived DT and DR value, helping to make each critter unique. The only issue I have with this is I'm not sure it can be applied to all; as in the case of Frank H., or if this can be applied to the player and companions.

  17. JimTheDinosaur

    JimTheDinosaur Vault Dweller

    Mar 17, 2013
    Well, I've finally done what I'd promised and tested things with a fresh install and the main problem was that apparently the sfall scripts need to be extracted to the regular data/scripts folder as well (or just there, but for convenience sake you might as well extract them all in both). I've also properly updated all the scripts (this separate install business is going to kill me one day), and finally made it compatible with UP (not RP yet, sadly, because of the impossibility, as far as I can tell, of decompiling and recompiling scripts with sfall functions in them). I'll just start a new thread with a neat introduction to all the features because this thread has gotten a bit messed up.

    Sorry Glovz, haven't gotten round to it yet because of the need to fix the regular mods, but now that I'm "done" with that, I'll have a look see soon.
  18. JimTheDinosaur

    JimTheDinosaur Vault Dweller

    Mar 17, 2013
    Very interesting. I spent a lot of time while doing the whole fixed hp thing going over possible formulas for non-human hp, but that always ended up in the crapper because I just had too few variables to work with. Introducing DR and DT into the equation could be a brilliant move.

    I do think you'd definitely need to be less conservative than your being right now. For instance, going for ST/4 for weak critters wouldn't make sense because they'd probably have ST <4>STRONG categories (just have the EN/ST values speak for themselves), maybe keeping only the BOSS category, and bumping the values (something like EN*3 and ST/2).

    I don't get this part, why should it be randomized at all? Randomization wouldn't be really possible anyway, because it would necessarily be reset on every map entry.

    Yeah, like I said, the unique part is probably not possible. It would simply get shuffled on each map entry. You could do it for party members because they get saved, but wouldn't this system best work for non-human critters exclusively?
  19. JimTheDinosaur

    JimTheDinosaur Vault Dweller

    Mar 17, 2013
    New draft:

    five variables are needed:

    1) Experience value/10 sets the hp value.
    2) Endurance*3 adds to the hp value, and *3 sets the DR value
    3) Strength*1 adds to the hp value, and /2 sets the DT value
    4) Extra AC (so AC on top of the base agility bonus) raises DR*1 and DT/5.
    5) Finally kill type (i.e. gecko, deathclaw, etc.) can adjust the DT/DR values according to some of the principles you layed out (e.g. fire geckos and floaters get special immunities).

    First example, part of the rat family tree (all DT's are for normal damage for the examples):

    Rat: 6 HP, 0 DT, 0 DR
    Pig Rat: 9 HP, 0 DT, 0 DR
    Mole Rat: 26 HP, 0 DT, 0 DR
    Greater Mole Rat: 36 HP, 2 DT, 25 DR
    Mutated Mole Rat: 72 HP, 4 DT, 30 DR
    With Revised Formula:
    Rat: 6 HP, 0 DT, 3 DR
    Pig Rat: 14 HP, 1 DT, 6 DR
    Mole Rat: 26 HP, 2 DT, 9 DR
    Greater Mole Rat: 34 HP, 6 DT, 27 DR
    Mutated Mole Rat: 52 HP, 5 DT, 25 DR
    And for part of the Gecko tree:

    Little Gecko: 25 HP, 0 DT, 20 DR
    Tough Little Gecko: 35 HP, 0 DT, 20 DR
    Golden Gecko: 45 HP, 2 DT, 25 DR
    Tough Golden Gecko: 65 HP, 2 DT, 25 DR
    With Revised Formula:
    Little Gecko: 18 HP, 3 DT, 17 DR
    Tough Little Gecko: 20 HP, 3 DT, 17 DR
    Golden Gecko: 28 HP, 6 DT, 24 DR
    Tough Golden Gecko: 37 HP, 6 DT, 24 DR
    Deathclaw tree:

    Immature Deathclaw: 50 HP, 2 DT, 15 DR
    Tough Deathclaw: 310 HP, 10 DT, 50 DR
    Revised new Formula:
    Immature Deathclaw: 49 HP, 4 DT, 18 DR
    Tough Deathclaw: 208 HP, 10 DT, 54 DR
    Various weak critters:

    Radscorpion: 26 HP, 2 DT, 0 DR
    Spore Plant: 40 HP, 0 DT, 0 DR
    Mantis: 16 HP, 0 DT, 0 DR
    Revised New Formula:
    Radscorpion: 36 HP, 3 DT, 18 DR
    Spore Plant: 31 HP, 2 DT, 18 DR
    Mantis: 25 HP, 1 DT, 15 DR
    Various strong critters:

    Sentry Bot Mark II: 120 HP, 13 DT, 50 DR
    Robobrain: 80 HP, 5 DT, 40 DR
    Floating Eyebot: 60 HP, 4 DT, 30 DR
    Floater: 175 HP, 5 DT, 40 DR
    Centaur: 150 HP, 4 DT, 35 DR
    Alien: 120 HP, 6 DT, 40 DR
    New Formula:
    Sentry Bot Mark II: 93 HP, 9 DT, 49 DR
    Robobrain: 60 HP, 7 DT, 44 DR
    Floating Eyebot: 51 HP, 3 DT, 31 DR
    Floater: 107 HP, 8 DT, 44 DR
    Centaur: 93 HP, 6 DT, 36 DR
    Alien: 79 HP, 9 DT, 46 DR
    Super Mutants:

    Super Mutant: 100 HP, 5 DT, 40 DR
    Strong Super Mutant: 110 HP, 8 DT, 40 DR
    New Formula (after adding 4 ST):
    Super Mutant: 72 HP, 10 DT, 44 DR
    Strong Super Mutant: 83 HP, 11 DT, 47 DR
    I think it looks good, what do you guys think?
  20. Glovz

    Glovz Vault Dweller

    Sep 16, 2005
    I'm still at work so I haven't had a chance to review things thoroughly, but when you list single DT and DR values are you saying these values would be for Normal type damage or for all types of damage? Maybe I misunderstood something in my quick glance.

    I like what you've done with the derived HP, regardless of tougher critters HP being slightly lower the fact that they will have higher DT and DR values in most cases will make it a little tougher to run through those HP.