Gamasutra kills children

Per

Vault Consort
Staff member
Admin
An editorial on Gamasutra, "I Kill Children", examines the decision to cut childkilling from Fallout 3.<blockquote>Problematically, in singling out and self-censoring one particular type of 'crime' in his game, Pagliarulo by implication justifies all the others as being non-gratuitous and necessary. Last night I blew the head from a homeless scavenger girl, one who was barely into her twenties.

The slow motion camera tracked her head's explosion before lingering on the crimson fountain spurting from her neck stump. Is this kind of interaction and feedback socially responsible? And so then what's the difference to killing a minor?

Is the life of a make-believe child really worth more than that of a make-believe adult?

[..]

Self-censorship was the least effective course of action open to Bethesda if they are looking to morally instruct their players. Why not take the route less traveled and try to implement some meaningful consequence, something beyond an essentially meaningless "karma" stat?

Of course it is the route less traveled for a reason: it's a whole lot more work. The framework of systems and rules that govern Fallout 3 serve the setting: a place of lawless anarchy. As such it's difficult to introduce a potent enough disincentive to murdering children. And, in more general terms it's hard to make any game talk to a player in true terms of "good" and "bad," when the medium's primary vocabulary is one of "success" and "failure."

[..]

These are difficult questions with few satisfying answers. But no matter what, in removing the opportunity to kill children in their anarchic game, Bethesda has admitted video games' ineffectiveness in providing meaningful disincentives and negative repercussions for in-game atrocities. That the team chose to carve the issue out of their game rather than attempt to engage it head on, speaks volumes.</blockquote>Many of the comments are eloquent and passionate. And the first one rings with a tone of familiarity: "You offer no real argument as to why you want to murder children."
 
"You offer no real argument as to why you want to murder children."

Same goes with murdering anyone. Why it's "just a videogame" when you kill hundred adult, but magically it turns into killing fetish if you murder children.
 
We must protect the fictitious, digital children!

It starts with 1s and 0s and only escalates from there.

Is the life of a make-believe child really worth more than that of a make-believe adult?
And, on their 18th birthday they're exempt?
 
You offer no real argument as to why you want to murder 17.99975-year-old game characters.
 
I can understand what they're saying, but the ESRB would NEVER allow child killing in a game. That would NOT go over well with the media.
 
AFAIK (maybe i'm wrong) there is an international consensus signed into law that the _image_ of children should be protected from unreasonable depictions or something like that...

Nice article :)

theyre right bethsofts wasteland is wonderfully clean cut

offtopic

I'm really dissapointed not to see any fat people, skinny people, malnurished, crooked, bent people in this game... and many others.

everybody has a perfect figure :) adding to the charisma void characters emit...

I'm also dissapointed by the lack of opportunism and malice in most of the characters ...
 
kikomiko said:
I can understand what they're saying, but the ESRB would NEVER allow child killing in a game. That would NOT go over well with the media.
Tell that to the devs of Bioshock, I don't think they got the memo. And let's not forget that the original Fallouts were rated by the ESRB, yet you could shoot, stab, burn, kick, punch, blow up, and bludgeon children how and when you please. There are other examples as well. I don't recall there being a media storm over the ability to kill children in Deus Ex or its sequel.
 
Per said:
Why not take the route less traveled and try to implement some meaningful consequence, something beyond an essentially meaningless "karma" stat?

this was the exact discussion i tried over and over to bring up at the BS forums once the decision to have invincible children was brought up over a year ago.

would have been nice to actually get a few responses from Devs or Emil himself. but alas...we all knew it was just another "WTF?!" fan question with a "N/A" company answer. :roll:
 
Excellent article.

Is there really a reason to censor Childkilling other than the ESRB? Did Emil just spew bullshit to alleviate his own conscience? Does Bethesda genuinely believe that they have to provide reasons for self-censorship beyond the obvious ESRB implications? Seriously?

(BTW Bethesda would never take the chance, moral excuses or not)

The article makes excellent points and exposes some unthought philosophical implications of game development and its future. However I think it takes too much out of context of the ratings system. And as said previously in this thread, what is the difference between killing a 17.5 year old and an 18 year old? A bunch of 1's and 0's and a huge M-rating or above.

*Daemon Spawn awaits 4too's weigh-in on this*
 
Daemon Spawn said:
Did Emil just spew bullshit to alleviate his own conscience?
Perhaps a child's head doesn't sit on a shelf or trophy case as well as an old lady's. :roll:
 
Ahhhh, but was his conscience muddied with killing children or the fact that the freedom of the gaming experience was compromised?

IMHO I think they're just making excuses. The ESRB dictates content, and, ultimately, the almighty dollar and share value dictate both content and desired public image.
 
Post-Christian as well as post-apocalyptic, the sum of your moral choices in Fallout’s world is then represented by a karma stat.
No, unfortunately karma is dictated in a very Christian manner. Other than that, great article with some good responses and some standard bs responses (the first response amused me greatly).

kikomiko said:
I can understand what they're saying, but the ESRB would NEVER allow child killing in a game. That would NOT go over well with the media.
Right, that's why Fallout 1&2 and Bioshock all got AO ratings.

radnan said:
AFAIK (maybe i'm wrong) there is an international consensus signed into law that the _image_ of children should be protected from unreasonable depictions or something like that...
There is no international law of the sort or even in the US for that matter (supreme court ruled the law passed by congress that did as much as unconstitutional [violation of the first amendment]). There is an international that deals with treatment of real, physical children but none that deals with their image.

TwinkieGorilla said:
this was the exact discussion i tried over and over to bring up at the BS forums once the decision to have invincible children was brought up over a year ago.

would have been nice to actually get a few responses from Devs or Emil himself. but alas...we all knew it was just another "WTF?!" fan question with a "N/A" company answer. :roll:
Yeah, I certainly got involved in my fair share back before leaving the forums for good. These discussions tend to end up being the pro-mortal children advocates posting sophisticated arguments about why children should be mortal with those against it flaming those for it, asking repeatedly why anyone wants to kill children, and completely failing to bring up any logical or partway reasonable arguments (beyond potential rating difficulties).
 
UncannyGarlic said:
kikomiko said:
I can understand what they're saying, but the ESRB would NEVER allow child killing in a game. That would NOT go over well with the media.
Right, that's why Fallout 1&2 and Bioshock all got AO ratings.

For the last GOD BLESSED TIME already:

1). Fallout 1&2 were both released prior to Columbine (this is actually not a trivial aside, believe it or not).

2). The Little Sisters in Bioshock are not children, and you don't actually get to see the player "killing" them.

I thought we were over this already?
 
Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude said:
Bodybag said:
2). The Little Sisters in Bioshock are not children, and you don't actually get to see the player "killing" them.

Someone didn't listen to the audiologs :roll:

I played the game all the way through. They aren't children until the last part of the game. You know, the part where you can't harm them.

For the bulk of the game they're abominations, and even then you can't just kill them on-screen outright.
 
The argument that ESRB would rate a game AO if children were mortal in it is thus far completely baseless. Show me where ESRB has said this or made this decision in the past. If you can't then you are working off of baseless speculation which all evidence suggests that you're wrong.
 
For the sake of argument I am curious, how many post Columbine games feature on screen depictions of child killing?
 
Back
Top