Gaming's Fringe Cults

In terms of the NMA community, all three admit that while it has grown every year, it does suffer some pitfalls of age: Primarily, the folks there have refined arguing down to a brutal science. "I dislike a bit that this sometimes means there's too much (sometimes enforced) consensus on anything concerning Fallout, and not always enough freedom for creative thought," ßеекers says. "What I dislike a lot more is that our often abusive attitude always attracts a lot of ne'er-do-wells and ill-thinking pre-adolescents. ... I think those types also contribute disproportionally to [our] bad reputation."
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I have to agree with this bit. I've made attempts in the past to make rational, intelligent contributions to these forums but the atmosphere in here is more often than not too arrogant, hostile, and filled with rampaging 18-24 year-old testosterone to ever make me want to stick around. In essence, newcomers do not seem welcome here and their opinions are seldom heeded even if their arguments are well put. It feels like this place is more like a closed-door social club than a Fallout discussion site and there is way too much abuse heaped upon those who come in here with fresh or new opinions or who just happen to disagree with the rest of the crowd. Mind you, I'm not talking about Oblivion fans who pop in just to say "What's wrong with you guys? FO3 will be great!", but even long-time Fallout fans who have played the original games countless times and are just as fanatic about the series and just as angry (and scared) that Bethesda isn't going to get it right. A lot of this heavy-handed, abusive behavior comes from NMA moderators and admins themselves. The rest is usually from long-standing members who feel like they're part of the club and so enjoy attacking or heaping ridicule upon those who haven't been around here long enough to be a part of the crowd. It's elitist and sehr nerdy, and it really does end up lumping NMA (no matter how great a resource for FO info it is) with every other computer game fan forum on the Internet.

I wish it didn't have to be this way as I'm a bit older and more laid-back and flame wars and four-letter words really don't appeal to me. Messages laden with "fuck" and "asshole" and "moron" really don't contribute to intelligent discussion, and instead turn forums into trash. As uptight as it may sound, I really do appreciate the fact that profanity is censored on the Beth Fallout forums and that mods firmly yet politely warn those who think to spew flames at other users. Contrary to what I expected, a lot of intelligent, constructive discussion really does go on over there (I expected the place to be full of 18 year-old Beth fanboys), perhaps more than goes on over here. I think the primary reason for this is that discussions are channeled in a civil direction; that, and the fact that you don't have moderators or bigshot guys with 2000 posts ganging up on people they disagree with or threatening to ban them at every turn. In short, it's a much more comfortable place to be.

Now I know most of you will say "Who gives a shit moron? Go over there then," and yes, that's what I have done, but I couldn't help but offer my opinion after reading this little write-up in The Escapist. Also, I now realize that there are a couple of you who are actually decent fellows, guys like Brother None who I see making great contributions in the Beth forums, a guy whose remarks are always civil and intelligent and whose arguments are strong and difficult to refute despite the fact that they don't contain strawmen or ad hominems and lots of nasty little words (even when he is dealing with morons). In short, he comes across as intelligent and well-spoken, a guy whose opinion I respect. Just wish there was more of that here as I'd much rather devote my time to a site that has faithfully served a cult franchise for nearly ten years than to a company forum that was thrown up for the sole purpose of generating free hype for an upcoming game.

Anyhow, hopefully NMA will evolve over time. It would be the best Fallout site on the web, given a slight attitude adjustment and a little scrubbing. If not, then so be it, as there are a lot of other places to go. Still, it would be a great thing to see.
 
I'm not sure what you mean you've made attempts at rational discussion in this forum before, you've only been here a few days. If you're a double register, I'm afraid you're bannable, by the rules, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.

You had a point, up until the point where you suggested a better way is to be thought police in exactly the opposite direction we are now. The Bethesda forums are just as much a controlled, thought-police-esque environment as we are, the fact that they have a swear censor in place doesn't change that.

The fact that we're aware of the problem should tell you enough about NMA's tendency to evolve. Believe me, we're a lot easier on new users now than we were a year back.
 
bluurg said:
Now I know most of you will say "Who gives a shit moron? Go over there then,"
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I do feel that we are being unfairly portrayed here. I's very easy to see the vocal minority (yes, even the overly vocal minority of such a vocal minority as this) and assume that this is accepted, or even admired. I don't blame those that do - I rarely bother to ingratiate myself into groups when some members are openly abusive and would not expect others to do so, but there are those of us who are more likely to either ignore idiotic posts or try to start a rational discourse with the poster. (Not to mention the fact that a great deal of those pounced upon do, truly, deserve it).

Myself, I tend to just ignore them, which does tend to hide my tendencies, perhaps even emphasize those of those who post profanity strewn arguments in place of debate.

Admittedly, there is a strong argument to dive in, to forcefully insert rational discourse into a ridiculous argument, at one point I would have done do (occasionally, I do so now). But there is only so much talking to walls that I can be bothered with. I may not be as noteworthy as those who have more stamina when talking to those who would be deaf, but there seem to be many like me here, not just the hotheads and "fanatics".
 
bluurg said:
As uptight as it may sound, I really do appreciate the fact that profanity is censored on the Beth Fallout forums and that mods firmly yet politely warn those who think to spew flames at other users. Contrary to what I expected, a lot of intelligent, constructive discussion really does go on over there (I expected the place to be full of 18 year-old Beth fanboys), perhaps more than goes on over here.
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It doesn't seem like we visit the same Bethesda forums, most of the discussions I observe play out like the Monty Python's Argument Sketch. It is a place where the moderators are not interested about encouraging intelligent or interesting conversation, as long as it meets their standards of 'civil conversation.'
 
Bye, bye, philowar. Ban evasion is against the rules, even if it doesn't mean you're a moron.
 
bluurg said:
(...)In essence, newcomers do not seem welcome here and their opinions are seldom heeded even if their arguments are well put.(...)
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I disagree. While the people here can be a bit unforgiving towards newcomers, if one spends some time lurking and learning why people here think as they think and do as they do, it all makes much sense. A newcomer who comes in and speaks his mind without regard to previous threads about the same subject is bound to find trouble.

"When in rome, do as romans do."
It's not just "pack mentality", I think, since there are good justifications for these attitudes.

I've personally not had any problems in my short time here as a registered user.
 
Wr4i7h said:
bluurg said:
(...)In essence, newcomers do not seem welcome here and their opinions are seldom heeded even if their arguments are well put.(...)
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I disagree. While the people here can be a bit unforgiving towards newcomers, if one spends some time lurking and learning why people here think as they think and do as they do, it all makes much sense. A newcomer who comes in and speaks his mind without regard to previous threads about the same subject is bound to find trouble.

"When in rome, do as romans do."
It's not just "pack mentality", I think, since there are good justifications for these attitudes.

I've personally not had any problems in my short time here as a registered user.
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Yeah. Don't register on forums for gay users, only to preach them about the wrongs of their ways, and expect smiles and flowers in return. :roll: :lol:

I also don't get all the people who come (not only here, mind, this applies to every consolidated community) to a place and expect to be automatically greeted with open arms. Ever heard that respect has to be earned? Pshaw.
 
I guess you could say I was a "newcomer not welcome"... different reason though (a automated one). I couldn't register as I had a e-mail from a bad place :P I move at least 4x a year if not more so need a e-mail that stayed the same... but those are used by spammers so I had a little trouble. But after a few years of visiting I figured it out and got around that little e-mail filter thing with the help of Silencer, much thanks again for opening the door to me then :D

Still see today what I saw back then that brought me here over and over... a TRUE Fallout fan base, untainted and fighting for what they/we/whoever believes in. And also excellent news on other the post apoc games out there today.
 
bluurg said:
*snip*
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I disagree. The profanity and abusive behaviours from testosterone laden moderators encourages people who are unable to follow a rational discussion to stay away from those forums.
 
I disagree. Our moderators are fairly decent and open-minded. If you look at the Bethesda forums, you will find that a lot of fallout fans (including many NMA members) add meaning to the dialogue.

As for cursing? Bullshit. As Clarence Darrow, once noted, there are painfully few good words in the English language to limit the use of the profane. If I'm pissed off, I'm pissed off. Language offers not merely logical argument but the ability to express emotions as well.

We don't abide by flames, trolls or spam. If you wish to participate here, don't expect your views to be respected until you've earned that respect.
 
Brother None said:
PS: note that we are referred to as "one of the most feared message boards on the planet" in the intro. Funny.
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...I'm still scared to post here!

Seriously really neat article!
 
The article was well written, informative, and the quotes in the NMA section well chosen. It makes me feel a little guilty that I haven’t helped with any modding work for the original Fallouts.


The negative behaviour at NMA isn’t anything extraordinary for any cohesive group with an agenda. If somebody says something that one disagrees with, then one goes about pulling their argument apart with vigour. The range of opinions here is varied, but there is broad consensus on many issues regarding Fallout, which might make it appear more like an insular club. More homogeneity is possibly something to be expected after discussion amongst passionate supporters for a long period of time, also with self-selection by people who love the original games, with the accompanying emotional involvement. It would also be likely that such people will be confident in their long-held opinions, with well rehearsed and strong arguments.

I believe there is a slight bias against those who don’t hold consensual views here. Problems seem to arise firstly because people don’t do their homework, which comes across as annoying laziness. This can be very frustrating and lead to some bitterness amongst regulars, who have to repeat themselves countless times. A snappy, rigorous, or hostile response might be expected in light of the above, as this is a non-commercial fan forum, not a private clinic for people with learning disabilities, so people don’t have to play nice.

The slight bias I perceive is that a poor argument from someone who does agree is given less attention, which is unsurprising, although it isn’t a good thing. Higher standards are used to test a dissenting opinion, causing many to behave defensively. Drama occurs when a newcomer responds in an aggressive way, unfortunately feeling cornered and persecuted. Even if they have rational arguments, many start to challenge the authority of moderators and whine, instead of sticking to the technical argument at hand, causing banning. Annoying “me too” people seem to be given more leeway, but that isn’t due to post-count, that's politics.

The upside of our not all being paragons of virtue with infinite patience is that it seems to reduce the numbers of lazy, ignorant members, and contributes to intelligent discussion and detailed analysis (although my own analysis is pretty simplistic right now). The downside is that sensitive people or others with a positive contribution, such as those who are banned after a tantrum, cannot be heard or educated.
 
Nay a bad article indeed. What I've personally always liked with NMA is that, well not everyone, but most here share my general opinion on the Fallout series. I wouldn't even dream of discussing Fallout in any other community out of fear of having an aneurism, reading the heresy that some people *out there* come up with. FOBOS a real Fallout game? gaah...murder, death kill!
 
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