Good Books- on War

welsh

welsh

Junkmaster
Since these discussions often turn on issues of warfare, I was just curious what books do you all are reading or have read recently on warfare. This is not a Top-20 books on war, thread. Just what you've read, whether you liked it and would recommend it.

I am currently reading an older book by J. Glen Grey called The Warriors, Reflections on Men in Battle published in 1959 but attainable in later editions.

The guy served three years on the European front of the Second World War just after graduating with a Ph.D. in Philosophy. He did mostly counter-intelligence so he interrogates and meets with civilians. About ten years later he wrote a book based on reflections and correspondence. Pretty good read overall.
 
War books really aren't a favoured subject of mine. In fact, except for information source purposes, I never read them. I know they have great study of human nature potential, but still...

Last thing I read that could even remotely be considered a war book was A. Rashid's "Taliban", about the history of aformentioned.
 
You mean like "All Quiet on the Western Front"? or "For whom the Bell Tolls"? Or do you mean non-fiction works? For non-fiction I read "Enemy at the Gates"

That's all I can really think of, but I enjoyed all three of the aforementioned books.
 
I recently read A War of Nerves by Ben Shephard: a history of shell shock/battle fatigue/PTSS/PTSD. One part social history, one part history of science and one part intellectual history. I recommend it, but caution that it's not for the uninitiated.

Cheers,

OTB

PS Axl, I have to warn you, Enemy at the Gates is supposed to be factual, but there's a lot of things in there that don't hold up to scrutiny, such as the Zaitsev story. It's a good read, but take w/a grain of salt.
 
I just read Day of the war
it talks abaut USA after a nuclear war
( no and it is not like mad max or fallout )
 
I just started reading "A Rumor of War" by Philip Caputo, an autobiographical account of the Vietnam war. I'm only about 100 pages into it, but it's really good so far.
 
Books on warfare and such aren't my thing either, but I did enjoy Slaughterhouse-Five or The Children's Crusade by Kurt Vonnegut Jr. My dad (who likes books about war a lot more than I do) read it too, and he said it's one of the best books he ever read on the subject. It's a nice mixture of facts, fiction and autobiography. A must-read, imo.
 
axelgreese said:
You mean like "All Quiet on the Western Front"? or "For whom the Bell Tolls"? Or do you mean non-fiction works? For non-fiction I read "Enemy at the Gates"

That's all I can really think of, but I enjoyed all three of the aforementioned books.
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Yes, any of the above. I really loved All Quiet on The Western Front. Seen both movies but haven't read the books - although For "Whom the Bell Tolls is on the shelf."

But this could be even more extensive. For example I recently read Robert Stone's "The Dog Soldiers" for which he won a national prize. But the story is more about people coming back from the Vietnam war and getting caught up in the drug trade. Still, the consequences of the Vietnam prevades the entire book. I found that its view on California life was even more shocking than Vietnam and at times it meandered.

One of my favorite Vietnam books is the Robert Del Vechio's "The 13th Valley" a story of a company of soldiers who go into a valley to find a Viet Cong base. But Vecchio's story (and he's a vet) focuses on the relationships between the men and how the war affects them, as well as these discussions between them about the origins of war, man's violent nature and history. A wonderful book, gripping but intellectually stimulating, about man's psyche. Highly praised when it came out and one of the few 'good' Vietnam war books.

There's a book out there, I think its called the Centurians, about the French in Algeria, but I haven't found it yet.

Spader- Not sure, because it might be in translation, but do you mean Streiber and another author't War Day- they travel from Texas to California then New York?

Love Vonnigut. Slaughter House Five is great. There is a film called Map of the Human Heart where a pivotal scene is the fire bombing of Dresden. Visually incrediable if horrorifying.

I think a Rumor of War is another one of the few really "good" vietnam war books. YOu might also want to read "Short Timers" as well as "Born on the Fourth of July."
 
Welsh, if you're going to mention The Shortimers you might want to mention it was the book that Full Metal Jacket was based on. (AFAIK it's out of print and rather hard to find, though.)

Speaking of All Quiet on the Western Front I have to say that all of the translations that I've seen are rather poor. While still readable and a good book someone w/enough of a command of both languages should sit down and put out a translation that doesn't go on about "artillery splinters" when they mean shrapnel or fragments. :?

BTW, I have to ask, what exactly makes for a "good" Vietnam book?

Since you mentioned Born on the Fourth of July, I read a major source of inspiration for Ron Kovic earlier this year: Dalton Trumbo's Johnny Got His Gun. (The line "Christ came up from Tucson." willl probably stick w/me forever.)

OTB
 
I enjoyed The Shortimers, and also a book on the events at "Hamburger Hill", although I can't remember the name of it.

Full Metal Jacket is one of my all-time favorite films, and probably my favorite of Kubrick's work, next to Lolita (it was on TCM last night), and A Clockwork Orange.

2001 sucked.

-Malk
 
I'll have to comb the used book stores for "The Shortimers", maybe I'll get lucky. Would any of you who read "Johnny Got His Gun" recommend it?

Malkavian, I'm curious, why do you say 2001 sucks?
 
Well, it's boring, dim, long, badly shot, written, acted, HAL is dumb, it's tripe, it's over popularized and glamorized...

There are many reasons. Kharn hates it, too.

*snaps fingers* KHARN!

-Malky
 
Sorry guys - I like 2001. For that time, the movie was fantastic. But I also think that one should also see it in conjunction with Solaris.

Short Timers is the basis for Full Metal Jacket. Its a great book and actually, as I recall, it actually goes further than the battle of Hue to include the siege at Khe Sahn.

Johnny Got His Gun- I have never read it but I have many friends who have and they think its great.

Ok, difference between a good vietnam book and a bad vietnam book. The cheap answer would be that a good vietnam book transcends the genre of war stories (macho adventure, blood and guts, John Wayne in Sands of Iwo Jima, Sergeant Fury/Rock) stuff and actually could be considered a piece of literature.

But like I said, that's a sell out.

There is a lot of stuff coming out the Vietnam War that was kind of trashy action/adventure. Mind candy type stuff. This is literature just for the entertainment value and often does a good job of entertaining but doesn't move past that. Clancey writes this stuff quite a bit. It's fun and sometimes its interesting but usually its just mind candy.

A good book forces you to think about the human condition. This doesn't mean it doesn't have the typical stuff found in the genre. The Dog Soliders and the 13th Valley have lots of action, heroism, tragedy, etc. But the story also shouldl force you beyond the genre conventions and force you to think a bit more about your world view. The Dog Soldiers for instance bring up the moral bankruptcy of 'the world' that these guys go back to. The 13th Valley explores the human dimensions of violence as well as the conflicts back in the US especially the issue of race.

For a more ready illustration, take the Quiet American. On one side its a romantic triangle set in an exotic locale. IN another its a story of espionage. But at a deeper level its also about values, about the dangers of blind idealism and enthusiasm, the danger of dogmatic patriotism.

In horror I would compare Frankenstein or Dracula to Stephen King (and I am a big Stephen King fan). But it's not just a matter of age or polish, but of quality in terms of depth. Umberto Eco's Name of The Rose, is just a mystery set in a medieval monestary, but it's more than that.
 
Sorry guys - I like 2001. For that time, the movie was fantastic. But I also think that one should also see it in conjunction with Solaris.
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You rule welsh, no doubt about it. But it`s Tarkovsky Solaris version, guys and girls, not the Sodherberg one.
Hmmm seems i forgot to put them on my favorite list of films, damn.

For a more ready illustration, take the Quiet American. On one side its a romantic triangle set in an exotic locale. IN another its a story of espionage. But at a deeper level its also about values, about the dangers of blind idealism and enthusiasm, the danger of dogmatic patriotism.
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My wife gave it to me, since i liked the movie so much, can`t wait to start reading it, together with the gazzillion books i have lying throughout the house still unread...

I`ll post on topic next week, it seems that i`m finnaly going to have the time to start posting in these fine threads again by that time.
 
Montez said:
Would any of you who read "Johnny Got His Gun" recommend it?
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Yes, I would recommend it. Although I'm leary about using fiction as a means of learning about things -- as those who have seen my quote on DaC might have concluded -- it's one of those thought provoking works that can stimulate interest and/or dialogue on a topic. While it's the story of a man who's been crippled in the trenches of the Western Front of WWI, it goes beyond that and addresses issues like the paradox of democracy, blind obedience, patriotic ferver, etc. Good stuff. You'll understand why it's been banned so many times over the years whenever someone was on the eve of war.

welsh said:
Short Timers is the basis for Full Metal Jacket. Its a great book and actually, as I recall, it actually goes further than the battle of Hue to include the siege at Khe Sahn.
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Yes, there's a third section in the book that deals w/Joker leading a fire team during the siege of Khe Sahn. It seems Kubric did this quite a bit, leaving portions of the book that he based his movies on out so as to make his own point. For instance, he used the first US edition of Clockwork Orange as his basis for the movie. This edition left out the last chapter where Alex overcomes his programming and chooses a "good" life of his own Free Will. This first US printing, just like the film, therefore ends w/the line, "Oh, I was cured all right." Probably the same intent as his letting FMJ end w/the line, "I am in a world of shit...yes. But I am alive."

Welsh, I see where you're going w/the idea of a "good" Vietnam book. Yes, quite a bit of the "literature" to spring up around that conflict is just "blood 'n' guts" tripe, like the literature that surrounds most wars. I'm interested in this sort of thing to the extent that I'm doing my honors thesis on war films, and while it's not quite what we're talking about, it does parallel it.

Regarding Clancy...I can't comment on his fiction, but I started to read his Armored Cav while I was in the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment. I couldn't finish the book. It wasn't incisive, it read like a press release. (There was a poster of the book in a nice, pretty frame up at regimental headquarters.) Just about everything in that book was overly optimistic, if not outright bullshit.

OTB
 
I agree with you on Clancy and it's a shame really. The characters are fairly undeveloped card board cut outs. In some ways the films (the Harrison Ford ones) were better than the books.

I read some of his first avidly. Loved the Hunt for Red October and enjoyed Red Storm. But then it began to go down hill.

I hate to say it, and this doesn't conflict with the notion of what's 'good literature' but the stories reflect a certain shallowness and a conservativeness that lacks depth. One also finds something of that in Patrick Robinson and recently Harold Coyle, although I thought Team Yankee was an enjoyable read. I was very disappointed with Coyle's book as there was so much more that could have been done with that book.

Shaara's Killer Angels- excellent. His son's Gods and Generals put me to sleep.

Black Hawk Down- more journalism here, but still a good read.

OTB- what films are you doing? Would be curious to hear more about your project.
 
welsh said:
Black Hawk Down- more journalism here, but still a good read.
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It was a decent read, but the thing I hated about it was that it completely lacked any sort of unified narrative. It was almost like listening to a chorus of muppets in fatigues at times. Bowden also seemed to be echoing exclusively what he heard from soldiers when it came to equipment. Reading the book you'd think that the Blackhawk was the best thing since sliced bread, but there's a reason that soldiers often refer to them as "Crash-hawks" and "squad killers".

One thing I thought was really lamentable was that Bowden made at least some attempt to talk to people on the other side, but when it came time for Scott and Bruckheimer to put it on film that was all lost and the Somalis were reduced to something resembling the porters in the old Tarzan movies of the '30s.

welsh said:
OTB- what films are you doing? Would be curious to hear more about your project.
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I'm comparing/contrasting '30-'34 to '34-39. The reason for the breakdown is that '34 was the year the Motion Picture Production Code was strictly enforced. Although it had been in effect since '30 the early years of the Depression led to lax enforcement in order to lure movie-goers into theatres w/sex and violence. Basically, this code sanitized the US film industry, which had been pretty damned racy up until that point.

Basically, the films are things like All Quiet on the Western Front, Gunga Din, Drums Along the Mohawk and so forth. Yes, I may have to narrow it a bit eventually and probably pick films that are more-or-less representative of various phases, but right now -- with 1-1/2 years left before I have to be finished I'm taking as broad of a look as I can. I'm also having to learn that peculiar dialect of English spoken by the film industry, both past and present. :lol:

Thanks for the interest,

OTB
 
You cannot discuss war books without mentioning the absolutely great books written by the danish author Sven Hassel.
Hassel was in the German army during the WW2, and has written 14 books about his experiences. (And no, he was not a nazi) He is one of the world most sold authors, and i still don't get why so few people have heard about him.

I'm not gonna make a whole big deal out of this, even if i want to, but check out his fan site and see for yourself... And for gods sake, read at least the first book! (I've read it five times now and it still amazes me every time i read it.)

More info on www.svenhassel.info
 
I did like "the Empire of Ice" by Richard Moran.
It takes place in the UK in the near future (really near),where the warmocean currents that keeps England luke-warm in the winter have changed their path and now >England get's a whole lot of snow in the winter, add-on power crisis, conflict with Ireland, good guy does the girl at the end (oops gave it away).
All in all i red the book in two days because i couldn't keep away from it.

Other mentionnable book Le canard de bois (the wooden duck) is about the canadian patriots at the time where the red-coats came. I liked it because the action takes place around places i know very well. To this day the church in the city where i was born still shows scars of cannonballs on it's facade from that war.
 
Another good book is On Killing. It focuses on the psychology involved in the military rather than any particular war. His basic premise is that people have an innate resistance to taking life, and that the military(mainly U.S.) keeps creating better and better ways to break down that resistance - nothing surprising in that, and some of his arguments are a little flimsy, but overall it's well worth reading.

One of his main arguments lies in the fact that soldiers are increasingly willing to shoot to kill in war. He writes that in WWI only about 10% (I can't remember the exact numbers) of all soldiers fired their rifles with the intention of shooting the enemy - most didn't fire at all, fired straight up in the air, or deliberately aimed over the enemies heads. In WWII it was a little higher, in the Korean war around 50%, and by Vietnam it was about 75% - according to his arguments this increase is due mainly to the military's increasing skill in de-sensitizing soldiers to killing, and helped out by the rising amount of violence in media, mainly movies and video games. The book has its flaws, but it makes you think about war from a very different perspective than most others.

One thing that always stuck with me: According to him, the majority of casualties from ancient wars (Greek, Roman, Alexander the Great's campaigns) happened while the enemy was retreating. He paints a picture of a big melee happening which was basically the equivalent of dogs barking at each other, waiting for one side to back down - no one really got killed because they had to look each other in the eyes and know that they were killing a fellow human. When one side did back down and retreat, they would be fired upon with spears and arrows freely because since they didn't have to see peoples faces or look them in the eyes, and it became impersonal. The lesson the military learned from this was that soldiers need to be taught to view the enemy as not human, making it easier to kill them - thus, instead of killing people, they're killing (insert military racilal epithet here). How valid this is I can't really tell, but it really stayed with me after I'd forgotten most of the other things in the book.
 
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