Greece is the time, is the place, is the commotion- Riots

[Paladin Solo]

fresh from BBC:

"The authorities say at least one person was injured as protesters threw stones and firebombs at a police station, near the city's main university.

Students are also reported to have set up road blocks in some parts of Athens. "

This is getting serious.

So someone finally figured out that the shopkeeper ISN'T working for the Man? I'm glad someone finally decided that burning down a private business isn't the best target when you're rioting because of the government and police forces.

Wanders off to read Terry Pratchett's Night Watch.

 

[Loxley]

Hah! If these rioters want to sacrifice something real, have them go toss rocks and flaming cocktails at a police station or military base instead of a fucking bakery.

They are throwing molotow coktails at the police.

Personally I think this will stop soon, the students will go home for christmas and whatever support the rioters have in the populace will disepear as soon as the mayority of the population realise that many of the rioters just do this to let out steam. Hell tonight there were bad weather in greece so there was fewer riots, kinda shows their commitment. The kid was killed by a ricochet by the way.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Kudos to Greeks. My country needs something like this. Our minimum wage is even lower, and the members of our parliament just voted a raise for themselves bringing them to the astronomical 3500 euro a month. As a network admin I make about 500 euro per month, which is DOUBLE what average worker in my company makes, so that serves to describe just how astronomical this figure is.

And the current prime minister's comment on this? "People need to adapt."

I say firebomb the bastards *wanders off to melt styrofoam and soap in petrol*

 

[Ashmo]

Loxley, the problem isn't that the kid was shot on accident, but that the shot was fired at all.

Going around shooting live ammunition isn't a smart thing to do when you're sitting on a social powder keg.

And please nobody wave the flag and say the police just did their job. It's not about what they do, it's about how. And there's a wide spectrum to choose from (of which I've personally only experienced two variants near the civil end: and the lesser of those two was scary enough).

Seriously, though. Either they successfully overthrow the government (and then what? The telly doesn't tell much about the actual politics involved, apart from the usual focus on the violent anarchists), or it all just dies down as usual and everybody forgets about it -- as it happens with most forms of protest eventually.

Never underestimate the power of weariness in fighting an uphill war.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Because this is overreaction.

Tell me, how is DESTROYING other people's livelihood through rioting and looting a rational response? Yes, you've been through shit, hell, everyone was - but you didn't see Polish people torching everything when nation-wide protests took place in Poland.

It's all about maturity. And taking frustration out by destroying everything in sight is not a sign of it.

When I saw the "We support the rebels in Greece --Anarchist Federation" banner, I really felt like applying some directed force against stupid people writing that.

It does reminds me to the riots in Germany from the 60s which basiclay started to become radiacl after the killing of Benno Ohnesorg (a peacefull German student who got shot by the police.)

A lot of the people in that time seen the society (even when it was not that way) two sided with the students on side and the "elders" on the others. Cultural differences that started from the blending of facistic past and democratic future.

But I agree the polnisch people with Lech Wałęsa around Solidarność were in their ideals and achievement better to what they do today in greece. Some even today tend to believe they were the first step that caused the faling of the Sovietunion and caused its slow collapse

 

[Paladin Solo]

They are throwing molotow coktails at the police.

Right. But someone trying to create a hero image for rioters blowing up private businesses just comes off as stupid to me.

 

[the_cpl]

Hah! If these rioters want to sacrifice something real, have them go toss rocks and flaming cocktails at a police station or military base instead of a fucking bakery.

You have the point!

 

[Loxley]

So lets see new changes. Entered the national bank and scared away the employees. Occupied a radio to transmit a message. The police are running low on teargass and is asking the germans and the israelis for support. Still alot of students amongst the demonstrators.

Some very close calls with those firebombs they throw though. Interesting to see how some of those police officers are trained to handle being put on fire like that.

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

The police are running low on teargass and is asking the germans and the Israelis for support. Still alot of students amongst the demonstrators.

Ah now we are talking, The Israelis know how to handle an unruly mob.
Sadly they cannot give the help I wish they would give.

Thanks for that picture as well, If someone threw a fire bomb at some of the police officers we have in the States they would get shot.

 

[TorontoReign]

The police are running low on teargass and is asking the germans and the Israelis for support. Still alot of students amongst the demonstrators.

Ah now we are talking, The Israelis know how to handle an unruly mob.
Sadly they cannot give the help I wish they would give.

Thanks for that picture as well, If someone threw a fire bomb at some of the police officers we have in the States they would get shot.

Amen to that. Thats getting a little crazy.

 

[the_cpl]

selfcensored post

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

Ah now we are talking, The Israelis know how to handle an unruly mob.

Yeah, they know. The Red Army also knew how to do that... Or I have a better idea. Why don't they ask the US army to bomb the country and kill 1 million civilians, like they did in Iraq?

Really? 1 million civilians? I questions your sources but that is getting terribly off topic. We all know by now I honestly do not give a damn about people who stand in the way of my country.

Anyways my point still stands, the Israelis know how to handle those pesky rock throwing kiddies. I would have used Northern Ireland examples but I have more respect for the Irish than the Palestinians.

On a side note are any of these rioters NOT affiliated with the extremist left? I keep seeing these group names such as Communist Party of Greece,Coalition of the Radical Left,Panhellenic Socialist Movement,etc.

This will probably blow over in a week or two, I cannot really take these clowns that seriously.

 

[UniversalWolf]

Thing is, in the minds of a lot of young people, that leftist political ideology is a beacon of hope for some of them. Sure the burning down of stores is unneccesary, but these are a group of people that have been pushed around for far too long.

Every generation of young people thinks they've been pushed around for far too long. Every generation of young people thinks they have all the answers. Every generation of young people thinks the system is rigged against them. Guess what? It is rigged against them, and with good reason: they're ignorant enough to think idiotic behavior like rioting is going to lead to improvement.

The beacon of hope for mature adults is the thought that their children won't grow up narcissistic enough to think they deserve things they don't earn. Too bad it almost never comes true.

 

[el1tevandal]

Hah! If these rioters want to sacrifice something real, have them go toss rocks and flaming cocktails at a police station or military base instead of a fucking bakery.

They did shops haven't been targeted for the last couple of days, the rioters (mostly students) are mostly in Universities, since law in Greece states that they are asylums and no armed force of the state can enter.

And I didn't say I support them ruining the businesses of people, but anger overtakes reason more often than not, and I also said that both sides (that being cops and rioters) have individuals who act without thinking, most of the rioters who went just to break shit and for no other reason probably are not there by now. Also the government promised to fully compensate the owners of such ruined shops, so lets see if they keep that promise.

That is what makes me cringe the most. You know these pathetic little slime balls are crawling back into the holes they came from and claiming victory while they blog each other on myspace.

I would love to see one of them throw a fire bomb in a military base like you said.

I don't see how you can be for or against a cause in a country you might not know what the social situation is about, and how things have been for the past 20 years through several administrations, you're passing judgment on these rioters, claiming they are something they are not, since most those kids don't have internet, and I'm not saying they are deprived because of that, but don't go and equate them with a certain group of young culture that you might be familiar with, just because that's what comes into your mind first, makes you look very ignorant. Plus cursing them out doesn't help your cause.

You also asked for links as to prove the police brutality which I have personally witnessed. Well here's some videos, I can't find any specific articles/videos/reports on the things I witnessed since this was back in '96-'97. Keep in mind none of the videos have anything to do with the current turmoil, as to demonstrate why so many people in Greece have such animosity towards the police, also be sure to read the side info from each video which gives some insight as to what is going on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtiY3qIsDGU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJe1f62uBcE&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzBp-vumh78&feature=channel

This is a video of two Albanian immigrant teens and what they had to go through during their arrest, and these are supposed to be professional police officers, and the next one is of an Asian immigrant and the abuse he had to go through:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pCadHB13pA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-msZRYS52o&feature=related

Bottom line is I know what I saw, and I've lived through it for some part of my life, I don't really have to prove it in a forum, or get into a fight and heated argument with you as to attempt to prove this. All I'm saying is that, don't be so quick to judge and label people as "slime-balls", and criticizing their actions so severely when you might not be as familiar with the overall situation as you might think.

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

I don't see how you can be for or against a cause in a country you might not know what the social situation is about, and how things have been for the past 20 years through several administrations, you're passing judgment on these rioters, claiming they are something they are not, since most those kids don't have internet, and I'm not saying they are deprived because of that, but don't go and equate them with a certain group of young culture that you might be familiar with, just because that's what comes into your mind first, makes you look very ignorant. Plus cursing them out doesn't help your cause.

You also asked for links as to prove the police brutality which I have personally witnessed. Well here's some videos, I can't find any specific articles/videos/reports on the things I witnessed since this was back in '96-'97. Keep in mind none of the videos have anything to do with the current turmoil, as to demonstrate why so many people in Greece have such animosity towards the police, also be sure to read the side info from each video which gives some insight as to what is going on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtiY3qIsDGU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJe1f62uBcE&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzBp-vumh78&feature=channel

This is a video of two Albanian immigrant teens and what they had to go through during their arrest, and these are supposed to be professional police officers, and the next one is of an Asian immigrant and the abuse he had to go through:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pCadHB13pA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-msZRYS52o&feature=related

Bottom line is I know what I saw, and I've lived through it for some part of my life, I don't really have to prove it in a forum, or get into a fight and heated argument with you as to attempt to prove this. All I'm saying is that, don't be so quick to judge and label people as "slime-balls", and criticizing their actions so severely when you might not be as familiar with the overall situation as you might think.

Funny thing on the internet comment considering an aol news report I read on some of the smaller riots spreading to other countries in Europe, specifically mentioned the internet as being a great tool for the " tech savvy youth" to organize these events and get the word out.

As I said before I have already had dialogue with one of these twats on another forum. The little punk who was bitching about the price of cheese in Greece. So I would say a fair amount of them do have access to the internet.

I can equate them with however I please, All of these groups I am reading in the news have very left wing extremist sounding names. From what I am reading online about a few of them the names match the ideology.


Also the videos you provided made for a good chuckle. I asked in particular for cases in which they were beat to "death". You provided videos in which some cops kicked the shit out of a few hippies who for all I know from these videos were threatening/resisting arrest.

All I was asking was for some documented cases in which this was a real constant issues (repeated incidents in which case people were left dead or severely maimed/injured). Not some grainy shaky youtube videos these little left wing jerk offs spam around the net trying to get support.

I applaud the Greek police force for using muscle to deal with these punks, it is the only thing some of them understand. If ever get some new commie bashing footage from the recent troubles be sure to throw it on here


edit: Sorry I had to throw this in here

http://blog.jinbo.net/files1/33/CINA/images/200701/131210171.jpg

Check out those clowns

Power to the people!111!!!!

Why cant this kind of thing happen in my town? The police would not even be needed, almost every house here is armed. We would have that shit cleared up in a few hours.

 

[Eyenixon]

Bottom line is I know what I saw.

Bottom line is that humanity is a construct that does not enjoy appreciating what else outside of itself, and itself lies within individualism that drives beyond a group and into narcissism. Anyone can understand the fuel of cause, I can, you obviously can, but no one can comprehend the true cause of the paradox that most of these rioters feel no empathy towards anything but their own felt trespasses, yet in circum feel the stigma of compassion that evokes the need to improve things for the self through the supererogation of others.

This isn't going to lead to anything, revolutions and insurrections are only ever successful by the uniform handed idealists that see the line where figurative holds of oppression form the entrapped thought of societal decay, nothing will result from riots, and not much will result from protests in Greece because there is no culture at stake, there is no individual at stake, there is only the shallow fear of livelihood's digression into something incomparable to the "upper class".

Concisely? A bunch of kids freaking out and sooner and later finding out that they only made things worse for themselves, the best thing to do is to wait until you can truly progress the path of beneficial change, it worked for Mahatma Gandhi.

 

[el1tevandal]

I applaud the Greek police force for using muscle to deal with these punks, it is the only thing some of them understand. If ever get some new commie bashing footage from the recent troubles be sure to throw it on here

It's not worth arguing anymore with you anymore, since we both got our views and nothing we both say will change each others minds. I can seriously go look for what you're asking find more videos, and all you'll see is leftists being taught a lesson, and I'll see unprofessional repression, and it'll have absolutely no point.

Bottom line is that humanity is a construct that does not enjoy appreciating what else outside of itself, and itself lies within individualism that drives beyond a group and into narcissism. Anyone can understand the fuel of cause, I can, you obviously can, but no one can comprehend the true cause of the paradox that most of these rioters feel no empathy towards anything but their own felt trespasses, yet in circum feel the stigma of compassion that evokes the need to improve things for the self through the supererogation of others.

This isn't going to lead to anything, revolutions and insurrections are only ever successful by the uniform handed idealists that see the line where figurative holds of oppression form the entrapped thought of societal decay, nothing will result from riots, and not much will result from protests in Greece because there is no culture at stake, there is no individual at stake, there is only the shallow fear of livelihood's digression into something incomparable to the "upper class".

Concisely? A bunch of kids freaking out and sooner and later finding out that they only made things worse for themselves, the best thing to do is to wait until you can truly progress the path of beneficial change, it worked for Mahatma Gandhi.

This is probably one of more eloquent things I've read, and very well said.

Though I still feel if ones voice is to be heard something should be done about it, and not sit back waiting for things to change, I do agree with your statement about how it should be done at the right time, and not have random acts of violence... or so I think that's what you meant, if not please correct me.

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

It's not worth arguing anymore with you anymore, since we both got our views and nothing we both say will change each others minds. I can seriously go look for what you're asking find more videos, and all you'll see is leftists being taught a lesson, and I'll see unprofessional repression, and it'll have absolutely no point.

Fair enough, you are correct that no matter what you show me if the people who are being beat are of an extreme left ideology I will probably find pleasure in it.

All the same if you ever come across documented cases where the police have beat someone to "death" or brutally maimed/disfigured them I would like to read about it.

 

[Eyenixon]

Though I still feel if ones voice is to be heard something should be done about it, and not sit back waiting for things to change, I do agree with your statement about how it should be done at the right time, and not have random acts of violence... or so I think that's what you meant, if not please correct me.

No, you got it right, a lot can be said with the right words, I thought it would be better to type out something a bit more expressive than a long analysis of the situation and how it relates to past history.

I don't disagree that one should act, a individual must always fight for his personal rights, and must do so dutifully if it infringes upon the rights of others if he believes that he is to be treated as an equal, but he should act after he has deliberated carefully, and only after he has confronted his own feelings and understanding of the world. Some angry students, although they may be rightfully angered, cannot do much if they decide to explode into violence and then list their demands. It's very presumptuous to do something so brash and it only lends credence to the sentiment that patience is a virtue, no government will listen to demands from a pack of disorganized (a few youths orchestrating poorly choreographed riots over the internet do not apply to the word "organized") ruffians who think change can occur overnight. They're only bringing harm upon themselves.

It takes time to get anything done, and the changes that do happen will take time, and they will most likely be small, but those small changes will lend a lot to a better future. The civil rights movement in the United States and Gandhi's efforts to loosen an imperialistic empire's grip on the land of India are considered magnificent events in history because their effects are unparalleled, their accomplishments are incredible considering the short time it took for them to produce an effect.

All I can see happening is that these people are eventually smothered by the armed forces and the nation falls into a period of even worsened conditions as the government attempts to repair the damages that they caused. Other than that, there is a very slight, infinitesimal chance that they do overwhelm the foundations of the country so much that something significant does occur as a result, what that result would be is unpredictable, there are some things history teaches us, but it never truly repeats verbatim.

 

[Ravager69]

Want to change your country - go politics man. I know it turns people into douchebags, but that is real sacrifice, not getting your ass whooped by cops in some masochistic whim. Organise a *party*, but not a raiding party. Something like, you know, Republicans or something. If these so called freedom fighters can't manage people into some kind of heavily protesting group that doesn't use violence, I seriously doubt they can change country for the better. Every moron can take a pitchfork and a torch and go burn shit down. If you can't make changes properly, seek out people that can and help *them* do it.