Gstaff clarifies 24-hour town pacification

[Texas Renegade]

While Oblivion did have some scripting problems, I'm sure they will have corrected quite a few of them by the time Fallout comes out, especially when you consider that Fallout isn't meant to have a global law and order system like Oblivion did.

I always love this "I'm sure they", "they must have" talk. I used to be like that.

Oooh, here's a toughy, relative to Morrowind, Oblivion only added heaps and heaps of scripting problems. So what is the trend?

I think that if you go on a murder spree in the town odds are that even if you are allowed to retun that your gameplay will be radically altered by your actions.

Uh ok how?

Again, some of us just get more out of being positive and hopeful then others.

I hope for the best with this game, if I am right great. If not, then heck, I will play something else.

No beating my head against a wall or feeling dread about a game.

It is all perspective. Ya'll are just assuming the worst. Some of us hope for the best.

 

[Moester]

While Oblivion did have some scripting problems, I'm sure they will have corrected quite a few of them by the time Fallout comes out, especially when you consider that Fallout isn't meant to have a global law and order system like Oblivion did.

I always love this "I'm sure they", "they must have" talk. I used to be like that.

Oooh, here's a toughy, relative to Morrowind, Oblivion only added heaps and heaps of scripting problems. So what is the trend?

I think that if you go on a murder spree in the town odds are that even if you are allowed to retun that your gameplay will be radically altered by your actions.

Uh ok how?

Well, while I'm not quite the expert on gaming engines, it seemed to me that the main difference in the AI in Oblivion compared to Morrowind, is that Morrowind had generally static NPCs who had as much mobility as table hockey figurined while not attacking. And Oblivion attempted to have completely dynamic characters that moved and interacted with each other a lot more to give it the feeling of a "living breathing world" The actual ramifications of this were quite severe, and I think Beth got caught trying to do too much at the same time. With the added experience of a couple of years of playing and feedback one would hope that they have isolated at least some of the problems and found fixes for them. I find it hard to imagine (although I know it happens) that a gaming studio willingly ignores the problems encountered in a previous game while designing a new one.

What is the trend between Morrowind and Oblivion? I think that we see the implementation of a lot of good ideas, things that were in many ways missing from one game to the other but the ideas in themselves were not refined to the level one would like to see in a finished product.

I think the great failure of radiant AI in Oblivion was that the designers did not envision a lot of the things that players were going to do to it. Have they learned from their lesson? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

As for how there could be a significant difference in gameplay from going into a town pre and post murder...Well I imagine some token "I hope you die" and "We're wathcing you" from characters as we pass them. But I envision most characters having extremely truncated conversation trees, radically inflated prices at the stores, and in some cases people looking to attack you as a means of revenge. I think of bandits going into small towns during the old west. In most cases, people had no choice but letting in the town, especially if the Sheriff and his deputies were casualties of said gang.

Definitely something that can be implemented well, ambiguously or badly.

I think that any player who isn't willing to role play in an RPG of this type can for all intents and purposes kill the game. It was possible to basically shoot your way through 99% of the game in Fallout 2 and still get a good ending for your people. Like a guy who just wiped out half the wasteland would be a great leader for his people.

Some bugs and scripting snafus are probably inevitable...but will they break the game for someone who is looking to roleplay? I seriously doubt it.

 

[Mephestys]

Retarded

Crap, now you've made it sound like one of their official ads. Just change the font to a more 50's advert style, replace the little dudes in the upper right with Pip Boys, and you've got another fantastic piece of substance-less propaganda for the PR cannon.

Agh, I haven't jumped on the Fallout 3 hatewagon, but you people certainly seem intent on dragging me aboard.

 

[Black]

Ah, trying to turn wishful thinking into facts. How amusing.

 

[Gentlemen]

Wow. This turned into a shit storm. It's like everyone is overlooking the fact that the NPCs will hate you after the rampage, perhaps closing off quests. Also, if you do it AGAIN, then they hate you forever. Finally, some towns will not forgive after 1 offense. How is this bad? How does this lack consequences?

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

It's typical Bethesda "have your cake and eat it too" game design for the munchkins.

 

[Brother None]

This turned into a shit storm. It's like everyone is overlooking the fact that the NPCs will hate you after the rampage, perhaps closing off quests.

Source? Because Gstaff only said they'd reference it, he didn't mention them hating you or it closing off quests.

Also, if you do it AGAIN, then they hate you forever.

Source?

 

[Gentlemen]

This turned into a shit storm. It's like everyone is overlooking the fact that the NPCs will hate you after the rampage, perhaps closing off quests.

Source? Because Gstaff only said they'd reference it, he didn't mention them hating you or it closing off quests.

Also, if you do it AGAIN, then they hate you forever.

Source?

Damn, I need a source data base. I can't remember, but they talked about it, I swear.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

With the added experience of a couple of years of playing and feedback one would hope that they have isolated at least some of the problems and found fixes for them. I find it hard to imagine (although I know it happens) that a gaming studio willingly ignores the problems encountered in a previous game while designing a new one.

Considering that they didn't start acknowledging that Oblivion wasn't perfect until 9 months to a year ago and that bug fixing for it was done by the community, this seems like a foolish hope.

 

[Ureshi]

Retarded

Crap, now you've made it sound like one of their official ads. Just change the font to a more 50's advert style, replace the little dudes in the upper right with Pip Boys, and you've got another fantastic piece of substance-less propaganda for the PR cannon.

Agh, I haven't jumped on the Fallout 3 hatewagon, but you people certainly seem intent on dragging me aboard.

FIXED

 

[Sorrow]

Well I imagine some token "I hope you die" and "We're wathcing you" from characters as we pass them.

NPC: "I hope you die."
PC: dakka dakka dakka dakka dakka "No, you die, lol."

But I envision most characters having extremely truncated conversation trees

Some dialogue options may disappear, but new ones should appear to reflect the fact that PC may do things to people.

radically inflated prices at the stores

I think that inflating prices for guys that just offed the sheriff and his deputies would be suicidal. You don't do things like that to people who can kill you at a whim.

By the way. There are ultra-badass bounty hunters in this world that will hunt me down if I'll kill a kid or a town.
So, why are there any combat quests left for me?

 

[sarfa]

You know, the pictures right. Several times in my life a problem has seemed really awful, but 72 hours (and some perspective) it really isn't that bad, and certainly nowhere near as bad as I initially thought.

Remember that old fella I shot in the face? I bet his body didn't actually explode.

To be serious, I don't mind this to much, as long as the reason the the town no longer attacks you is simply because they're to scared to go after the psycho killer, which would lead to everyone being veeery nice and polite in case they set you off and reduced prices. But no quests. But this seems clever, and if theres anything Raidant AI tought me it's that if there was a solution to the problem that could be implemented by a monkey with a cheesegrater, then Bethesda will find a dumber way.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

By the way. There are ultra-badass bounty hunters in this world that will hunt me down if I'll kill a kid or a town.

You can't kill kids in Fallout 3.

You know, the pictures right. Several times in my life a problem has seemed really awful, but 72 hours (and some perspective) it really isn't that bad, and certainly nowhere near as bad as I initially thought.

Remember that old fella I shot in the face? I bet his body didn't actually explode.

To be serious, I don't mind this to much, as long as the reason the the town no longer attacks you is simply because they're to scared to go after the psycho killer, which would lead to everyone being veeery nice and polite in case they set you off and reduced prices. But no quests. But this seems clever, and if theres anything Raidant AI tought me it's that if there was a solution to the problem that could be implemented by a monkey with a cheesegrater, then Bethesda will find a dumber way.

A month is the shortest time that would make sense. If they attack you at first then they aren't going to be afraid of you three days later, that's just stupid.

 

[Sorrow]

By the way. There are ultra-badass bounty hunters in this world that will hunt me down if I'll kill a kid or a town.

You can't kill kids in Fallout 3.

I'm talking about Fallout and Fallout 2. I couldn't care less about FINO3.

 

[Per]

I think the great failure of radiant AI in Oblivion was that the designers did not envision a lot of the things that players were going to do to it.

I thought the great failure of Radiant AI was that it literally never actually existed except in PR talk.

 

[squinty]

Brilliant. Moester comes along with a well written post and some interesting points. Maybe he thought an interesting discussion might arise. . . . . but no. Half baked, snide comments as usual. I have nothing against people disliking something but it is frustrating when instead of explaining why, they think that as they are on 'home ground' its perfectly viable to act in a smug, dismissive manner. I mean they can, but it does smack of not actually having alot to say.

 

[UniversalWolf]

This should be a perk:

Forgettable Face
You blend in with the crowd. After three days no one can remember the atrocities you have perpetrated against them.

Brilliant. Moester comes along with a well written post and some interesting points. Maybe he thought an interesting discussion might arise. . . . . but no. Half baked, snide comments as usual. I have nothing against people disliking something but it is frustrating when instead of explaining why, they think that as they are on 'home ground' its perfectly viable to act in a smug, dismissive manner. I mean they can, but it does smack of not actually having alot to say.

This forum has been here a long time. Even very patient, thoughtful people can't keep discussing the same things over and over again for years. If many of the posters here are fairly set in their opinions it's because they've heard every argument 100 times over.

Go ahead and read the archives. That's what I did before I started posting.

 

[sarfa]

A month is the shortest time that would make sense. If they attack you at first then they aren't going to be afraid of you three days later, that's just stupid.

Speak for yourself. Three days later they might be scared. A month later they'll be prepared (But theres no way Beth will have the game 'think' that far ahead). Tis a brutal and lawless place after all.

 

[Sorrow]

Brilliant. Moester comes along with a well written post and some interesting points. Maybe he thought an interesting discussion might arise. . . . . but no. Half baked, snide comments as usual. I have nothing against people disliking something but it is frustrating when instead of explaining why, they think that as they are on 'home ground' its perfectly viable to act in a smug, dismissive manner. I mean they can, but it does smack of not actually having alot to say.

I guess that's because explaining the same thing again and again for years gets boring. Also, take in account that reading 3-5 news every day about a game one hates tends to erode one's sanity .

 

[Eyenixon]

I realize that there's the complications of 3D environments and more advanced objects in the world, but it's astonishing to think that there really has been no game that has implemented unique NPCs with sensible schedules and reactions to player actions as well as Ultima IV did, which was one of the first games to do so.

Modern RPG developers really should return to the basics in this regard, the Gothic games did it fairly well, the NPC schedules were hardly too complex or extravagant, but they did the job well while being decently atmospheric and appropriate.

Companies like Bethesda try to go the "dynamic" route and add too many layers of complexity, or well - they try to. It's not really something that can be done with variables, triggers and player conditions as they attempted to do in Oblivion, then it makes absolutely no sense.

Simpler is better in this regard unfortunately, we're not at the point yet where we can make AI in an RPG that is both convincing and functioning to a degree that it is actually reflective of real life (as far as a video game can go to recreate that).

They should have just stuck to the tried and true Fallout technique of small different "groups" on NPCs in each town. In New Reno for example the pimps and hookers are one group, the mobsters another, and the casino patrons one more. While this could cause some funny situations (Mobster VS Pimp whore wars) it made sense to a certain extent, since the pimps and whores didn't really involve themselves with the gangsters so much as to care what you did to that party.

Oblivion did something like that to a certain extent, but it was fucked up to an immense degree of stupidity. Someone mentioned it before, NPCs would attack other NPCs to defend you because they didn't get the trigger that made them realize you were the party that had aggravated the town members.