Gun Control

[Atomkilla]

Being offended means jack and shit. If I offended you, good. If the worst you ever have to deal with is being offended by something, consider yourself a very lucky man.



Because it's honestly pretty fun to be an unrepentant dick to you people. Better ways to spend my time? This is something I can generally do while I handle finances, correspondence, bills, and other mundane shit. I mean, I can do this on breaks at work, and fuck knows I'd rather flick lit verbal matches at you shitheels than play some godawful mobile game or talk to my coworkers.



Well, don't strain yourself or anything.

Sad, after all.

 

[Deleted member 93956]

ou could say I'm trying to fit in, but even I don't believe that, because why would I want to fit in with people like you?

This still puzzles us all, almost 1000 messages later.

I find curious how "just internet words" have earned you the record of perhaps the most colossal fit on this site's history though.

 

[Cliffy McEdgeface]

I find curious how "just internet words" have earned you the record of perhaps the most colossal fit on this site's history though.

Because you're certainly not interested in polite discussion the moment that discussion treads ground you find distasteful, the obvious response is to give you impolite discussion instead. I'm sure your discussions seem very polite inside your tight little circlejerk where everyone generally is on the same page about controversial issues.

 

[Deleted member 93956]

Hey, we've reached post #3000! Good job, everyone!

Shout out to Throatpunch's thread to have gone on for long to outlast himself.

Because you're certainly not interested in polite discussion the moment that discussion treads ground you find distasteful, the obvious response is to give you impolite discussion instead. I'm sure your discussions seem very polite inside your tight little circlejerk where everyone generally is on the same page about controversial issues.

I see. So you're trying to prove a point. Keep at it, I'm sure you'll convince everyone of their hypocrisy of impoliteness by being a crass abrasive cunt that everyone from every opinion present on the thread has unanimously opted not to be associated with or second, while generally keeping temper, even in the most heated it's gotten.

But please, don't let me stop your crusade to the alleged goal of somehow having things tunnel back to be "polite" again. Unless such high horse(-ing?) is only really covering for thinly veiled trolling, of course.

 

[Cliffy McEdgeface]

I see. So you're trying to prove a point. Keep at it, I'm sure you'll convince everyone of their hypocrisy of impoliteness by being a crass abrasive cunt that everyone from every opinion present on the thread has unanimously opted not to be associated with or second, while generally keeping temper, even in the most heated it's gotten.

But please, don't let me stop your crusade to the alleged goal of somehow having things tunnel back to be "polite" again. Unless such high horse(-ing?) is only really covering for thinly veiled trolling, of course.

I honestly don't care that damn much if this particular topic ever swings back to "polite" again. I spoke my piece and made my stance on the thread topic clear. I'm not going to lose sleep over whether you, of all people, think I'm trolling or not. By now I've discovered I really enjoy rattling your cages more than talking with you politely, at least where this topic is concerned. Probably because you're all insufferable fuckwads the moment someone takes a strong stance against what you happen to believe.

 

[Risewild]

This thread went from "Gun Control" to "Dog Control".

By now I've discovered I really enjoy rattling your cages more than talking with you politely

I don't think you rattle anyone's cages to be honest. I think, you think you do though.
The way I see others reacting at your posts is usually one of three things:

1. They get a good laugh
2. They are genuinely confused
3. They ignore it

I know those three things are what happens to me when I see your posts, and judging by the replies you usually get, I have no doubt it happens to pretty much everyone else. I am just not sure about MutantScalper, since he is hard to read and sometimes totally random.

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TIL that Obama banned hunting bullets and fishing tackle made of lead, but the Trump administration got rid of that ban.

This seems like a ridiculous thing to do. Lead is poisonous and passively (as in, not the target of the hunter/fisherman) kills a lot of wildlife.

Has a former hunter, I think this was a really stupid move by part of the Trump administration. I see no other reason for it to happen unless money or influence was to be gained somehow.

 

[Cliffy McEdgeface]

This thread went from "Gun Control" to "Dog Control".

I don't think you rattle anyone's cages to be honest. I think, you think you do though.
The way I see others reacting at your posts is usually one of three things:

1. They get a good laugh
2. They are genuinely confused
3. They ignore it

I know those three things are what happens to me when I see your posts, and judging by the replies you usually get, I have no doubt it happens to pretty much everyone else. I am just not sure about MutantScalper, since he is hard to read and sometimes totally random.

Whatever. You've proven you're no stranger to being a supercilious cockbite yourself, you're the sort of person who thinks rolling your verbal shit in a thin dusting of proverbial sugar puts you above someone more plainly-spoken.

TIL that Obama banned hunting bullets and fishing tackle made of lead, but the Trump administration got rid of that ban.

This seems like a ridiculous thing to do. Lead is poisonous and passively (as in, not the target of the hunter/fisherman) kills a lot of wildlife.

Has a former hunter, I think this was a really stupid move by part of the Trump administration. I see no other reason for it to happen unless money or influence was to be gained somehow.

The only time lead ammunition ever really becomes an issue is when waterfowl or whatever ingest stray, expended lead shot from shotguns. There have been many answers to toxic shot - bismuth (goddamn expensive), tungsten-polymer (expensive), steel (more expensive than lead and absolute hell on gun bores, plus middling-to-poor ballistic characteristics). I wouldn't necessarily be against phasing out toxic lead shot for hunting but first there needs to be something significantly less expensive than bismuth and TP. Lead rifle bullets are probably a comparative non-issue.

 

[BigGuyCIA]

Has a former hunter, I think this was a really stupid move by part of the Trump administration. I see no other reason for it to happen unless money or influence was to be gained somehow.

If it had been implemented by the Bush administration it would have been praised. Little D must have been super hurt when Obama roasted his toupee about going down in history as President.

 

[Risewild]

Whatever. You've proven you're no stranger to being a supercilious cockbite yourself, you're the sort of person who thinks rolling your verbal shit in a thin dusting of proverbial sugar puts you above someone more plainly-spoken.

Ahahahah. This goes on the number 1 .

The only time lead ammunition ever really becomes an issue is when waterfowl or whatever ingest stray, expended lead shot from shotguns.

And yet, it kills 10 to 20 million animals in the USA every year. Conservative estimates also say that 25,000 tons of lead are inserted in the USA environment due to fishing and hunting each year.

There have been many answers to toxic shot - bismuth (goddamn expensive), tungsten-polymer (expensive), steel (more expensive than lead and absolute hell on gun bores, plus middling-to-poor ballistic characteristics). I wouldn't necessarily be against phasing out toxic lead shot for hunting but first there needs to be something significantly less expensive than bismuth and TP. Lead rifle bullets are probably a comparative non-issue.

Copper bullets are as good ammo as lead and sometimes superior. They are more expensive, but today a box of copper ammo can cost around $4 more than lead. A box can last several years.
"Lead alternative" ammo is getting less expensive over time, and if that legislation wasn't redacted, I bet it would be already at a comparable price today. Since the industry would have to adapt and evolve faster.

 

[Cliffy McEdgeface]

And yet, it kills 10 to 20 million animals in the USA every year. Conservative estimates also say that 25,000 tons of lead are inserted in the USA environment due to fishing and hunting each year.

Cite source, because those numbers border on absurd.

Copper bullets are as good ammo as lead and sometimes superior. They are more expensive, but today a box of copper ammo can cost around $4 more than lead. A box can last several years.

Copper is noticeably less dense than lead and that will likely lead to significantly altered ballistics. Copper itself is toxic in certain amounts (particularly to ungulates), though it wouldn't be hard to be LESS toxic than lead. We already jacket most bullets in copper anyway, though.

"Lead alternative" ammo is getting less expensive over time, and if that legislation wasn't redacted, I bet it would be already at a comparable price today. Since the industry would have to adapt and evolve faster.

Maybe, but last I knew neither bismuth nor tungsten are particularly cheap materials, so I would not expect to ever see prices reach lead levels. Bismuth is (to my knowledge) just not that damn common, and tungsten is something that gets used in other places a fair amount (used to be important for incandescent lightbulbs as filament material, but as flourescent and later LED bulbs have started to take up significant chunks of market share incandescents are becoming scarce). Steel shot is absolute garbage, frankly, and I can think of thousands of better uses for even cheap-ass steel.

 

[BigGuyCIA]

Cite source, because those numbers border on absurd.

Probably what he was referencing:

https://www.humanesociety.org/resources/lead-ammunition-toxic-wildlife-people-and-environment

In 1991, after biologists and conservationists estimated that some 2 million ducks died each year from ingesting spent lead pellets, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service outlawed the use of lead ammunition to hunt migratory waterfowl.

Despite the overwhelming evidence that lead ammunition is toxic to wildlife and people and the broad support for eliminating its use, it remains so widely used by hunters that an estimated 10 to 20 million nontarget animals in the United States die from lead poisoning each year.

 

[Cliffy McEdgeface]

HSUS is itself mildly suspect, and I don't appreciate them not openly disclosing their sources (it's a "email us and we'll send them to you", and I don't like giving my email out willynilly), but it's probably safe to say that stray shot is going to end up places it doesn't belong. That I will give them.

 

[BigGuyCIA]

American Bird Conservation reports more conservative numbers in the 8 - 10 million range:

https://abcbirds.org/article/new-st...-california-condors-caused-by-lead-poisoning/

ABC has analyzed almost 500, mostly peer-reviewed studies, and determined that the source of the vast majority of lead poisoning of birds and other wildlife is lead ammunition from hunting. Birds either consume lead pellets when they mistake them for grit that they used to help digest their food, or when they scavenge on the remains of animals hunted with lead shot or bullets. A single ingested lead pellet can cause a slow and agonizing death for many birds. Previous studies have estimated that between 8 and 10 million birds die from lead poisoning each year including Bald Eagles, Golden Eagles, hawks, ravens, vultures and Mourning Doves.

 

[Cliffy McEdgeface]

American Bird Conservation reports more conservative numbers in the 8 - 10 million range:

https://abcbirds.org/article/new-st...-california-condors-caused-by-lead-poisoning/

Better source if for no other reason than I've never heard of ABC being affiliated with/having significant membership overlap with organizations like PETA.

 

[Risewild]

Cite source, because those numbers border on absurd.

Here they estimate 15 million doves die annually:
https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/get_the_lead_out/lead_poisoning_index.html
They have sources on the bottom.
Here they say the number of 20 million lead deaths on animals per year are from the American Bird Conservacy:
https://now.tufts.edu/articles/wildlife-killer

Copper is noticeably less dense than lead and that will likely lead to significantly altered ballistics. Copper itself is toxic in certain amounts, though it wouldn't be hard to be LESS toxic than lead. We already jacket most bullets in copper anyway, though.

Here is a study from 2012 showing that Copper bullets has no danger of poisoning animals or humans. It also show that back in 2012 the prices of alternative ammo was similar to lead:
https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/get_the_lead_out/pdfs/Thomas_2012.pdf

Here is mentioned that performance of lead alternatives in dove hunting is the same (from a study made by the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department). Also says that a Arizona Game and Fish Department survey found the majority of hunters say that non-toxic alternative ammo is as good or better performance-wise as lead:
https://www.humanesociety.org/resources/lead-ammunition-toxic-wildlife-people-and-environment

This is also from the Arizona Game and Fish Department, which found out that 93% of Kaibab Deer hunters say that copper bullets perform the same or better than lead ones:
https://www.azgfd.com/PortalImages/files/wildlife/nongame/condor/110715_NonLead_broch_FINAL.pdf

 

[Cliffy McEdgeface]

Here they estimate 15 million doves die annually:
https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/get_the_lead_out/lead_poisoning_index.html
They have sources on the bottom.
Here they say the number of 20 million lead deaths on animals per year are from the American Bird Conservacy:
https://now.tufts.edu/articles/wildlife-killer

That doesn't gel with the previous ABC statement. Either something is missing from the ABC release (date difference/different study? deaths DOUBLING in 5 years makes little sense) or they're fudging something.

Here is a study from 2012 showing that Copper bullets has no danger of poisoning animals or humans. It also show that back in 2012 the prices of alternative ammo was similar to lead:
https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/get_the_lead_out/pdfs/Thomas_2012.pdf

Given that copper cookware that hasn't been appropriately coated is a great way to get very sick, I'm ambivalent on the assertion that copper ammo is totally safe. Not quite the same thing, perhaps, but something to think about.

notable excerpt

Woodleigh bullets, made in Australia, are available
in 16 different calibers, and a variety of bullet weights in
some calibers (Table 1). The Woodleigh solid bullets are
made from copper-alloy, and are made as non-expanding
solids in all calibers. They derive their lethality from
hydrostatically generated shock to create large wound
channels rather than expanding frontal petals.

hydrostatic shock is one of those things I see a lot of "woo" about (see any discussion about the russkies' 5.45x39 and its reported propensity for generating hydrostatic shock on /k/ for an example of this)

The other "lead-free" bullet makers don't seem to specify bullet composition in that particular passage, might be further down. Re: performance - it doesn't seem to specify ranges and such at which game was taken with lead-free loads, only that it reportedly performed well. Later on in the passage it cites ranges/performance against static targets, which is a bit more helpful than "works fine, we swear".

Copper bullets of
the same caliber and mass as their lead-core equivalent are
slightly longer to compensate for their lower density, and
may require deeper seating in the cartridge case. This could
impinge on the powder capacity of some cartridges with
limited case volumes. However, this is not realized in the
vast majority of hunting ammunition calibers.

It'd be nice if you specified which ones, but OK. This might potentially prompt a whole new wave of wildcat cartridges, assuming it takes off, so you'd probably end up replacing a bunch of older chamberings that don't get used too much with new ones that don't get used too much either. Whatever, I guess.

Here is mentioned that performance of lead alternatives in dove hunting is the same (from a study made by the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department). Also says that a Arizona Game and Fish Department survey found the majority of hunters say that non-toxic alternative ammo is as good or better performance-wise as lead:
https://www.humanesociety.org/resources/lead-ammunition-toxic-wildlife-people-and-environment

While I would put reasonable stock in the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department I wouldn't trust HSUS to not fudge stuff as they saw fit.

This is also from the Arizona Game and Fish Department, which found out that 93% of Kaibab Deer hunters say that copper bullets perform the same or better than lead ones:
https://www.azgfd.com/PortalImages/files/wildlife/nongame/condor/110715_NonLead_broch_FINAL.pdf

Not a particularly good citation, but OK. (You'd think they'd make their brochure's citations a little easier to verify in the age of the Internet.)

In any event the market should make copper a slam dunk (assuming it's good at this) obviating the need for government regulation. If the government wants to encourage copper ammo proliferation something like a lead-ammo buyback scheme for hunters might be worth looking at, idk.

 

[TorontoReign]

If anyone ever comes to my door trying to take my AR15 there might be a movie involved.

 

[Hassknecht]

Because it's honestly pretty fun to be an unrepentant dick to you people. Better ways to spend my time? This is something I can generally do while I handle finances, correspondence, bills, and other mundane shit. I mean, I can do this on breaks at work, and fuck knows I'd rather flick lit verbal matches at you shitheels than play some godawful mobile game or talk to my coworkers.

I'm sure your coworkers are eternally grateful to us.

 

[MutantScalper]

Ok since you're now bringing in the environmental aspect, yes that does exist in conjunction with US firearms issues. Now that we've established that US cop training is shit we can move on to this issue.

 

[TorontoReign]

The US is not training cops. They are training soldiers.