Gun Control

Cliffy McEdgeface said:
We are not preprogrammed robots doomed to one fate or another. We have choices and free will. Sometimes factors place limits on those, but they are there. Don't give me that fatalistic "free will is a lie" horseshit. We are constantly bombarded with prompts to make choices, and even IF we were heavily predisposed towards Choice A over Choice B sometimes we decide that Choice A is boring, or we get curious about Choice B, or so on. If we were preprogrammed, we would be predictable, and if there's anything I've fucking learned about people it's that they WILL surprise you, sometimes when you least expect it. If we were predictable, psychology would be a hard science with experiment results that can be reliably replicated. Lo and behold, psychology is NOT a hard science and doesn't look like it will become one any time in the near future.

You ALWAYS have the choice to not lie, steal or kill. You ALWAYS have the choice to seek help when you're in trouble. You're looping right back around to "the poor dears can't help it", and you're fucking wrong. To imply that you know that we are preprogrammed a certain way and that thus our choices are an illusion is so utterly arrogant as to beggar belief. Clearly we need to put you in charge of the APA, since you've got it figured out, asshole.
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Ok, so where is this "free will" coming from then? You agreed that the consciousness resides in the brain, and you agreed that causality is a thing. Unless you believe in a supernatural soul or equivalent concept, your free will is an illusion. Of course, it is very much a perfect illusion as it is impossible to predict the time evolution of a consciousness (to use quantum mechanical terms, the wave function/state is too complex to define, the Hamiltonian is staggeringly complex as well and the then the time evolution operator is basically unsolvable).
My point, however, was not to say that we're some sort of slaves to fate, fully aware of possibilities but fatalistically following a preknown path. I meant to explain to you that everyone's thought processes form differently and are a result of his or her past and surroundings. It's like telling a depressed person "Well, don't be depressed!". It doesn't work like that, the thought process is not some esotheric thing free of physical boundaries.
External influences impact the mind in a massive way, though, so helping people in need works. It might take time, but it works. While a significant part of the personality is apparently genetic, everyone can be taught and influenced.
My point here is that some people in shitty situations can make it out of there on their own. Others can't make it on their own, but can be taught to.
 
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Hassknecht said:
Ok, so where is this "free will" coming from then? You agreed that the consciousness resides in the brain, and you agreed that causality is a thing. Unless you believe in a supernatural soul or equivalent concept, your free will is an illusion. Of course, it is very much a perfect illusion as it is impossible to predict the time evolution of a consciousness (to use quantum mechanical terms, the wave function/state is too complex to define, the Hamiltonian is staggeringly complex as well and the then the time evolution operator is basically unsolvable).
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Humans are not piles of quantum mechanics. I don't believe in the concept of soul or spirit but there is SOME factor at play that ends up turning psychology into the crapshoot it currently is. It could well be that the human brain is simply so mindbogglingly complex that it is effectively impossible to accurately predict the results of all decision trees that take place, but if that's true and the brain's decision trees are unsolvable equations and coin flips consequently become at least as accurate if not more so than predictions based on psychological experiments... then to say free will is an illusion constitutes some kind of masturbatory attempt to save face at the fact that you can't actually crack the puzzle. Free will exists because we can't (and possibly never will) figure out how to open the box with the cat in it, so to speak. Moreover, the harm involved in telling absolutely everyone that they are purely causal creatures, slaves to their chemistry, is potentially so immense (primarily because there are THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of people looking for this kind of precise excuse to never do anything to genuinely better themselves) that I have to ask why you would even WANT to open the box. You might prove that you can, but you'll have a harder time proving that you should.

Hassknecht said:
My point, however, was not to say that we're some sort of slaves to fate, fully aware of possibilities but fatalistically following a preknown path.
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This is exactly where the "chemicals and causality" path leads, however, and the fact that you can't see that would worry the hell out of me if you were anyone of import in the relevant scientific field.

Hassknecht said:
I meant to explain to you that everyone's thought processes form differently and are a result of his or her past and surroundings. It's like telling a depressed person "Well, don't be depressed!". It doesn't work like that, the thought process is not some esotheric thing free of physical boundaries.
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While saying "don't be depressed!" in and of itself is not particularly helpful, the "get some help" that might follow might well be significantly more so. The thing about depressed people is that like most anyone else they actually don't cope so great with big changes and clawing your way back from that abyss requires a number of changes in your life, everything from good habit building to proactive research into medications (as needed). Sometimes they need to be prodded fairly hard to crawl out of that hole, because as miserable as they are in that hole, it becomes strangely comfortable to just sit there for however long it takes to simply wither away. That being said, some depressed people hit a certain point where they realize they absolutely HAVE to change something in their lives. And honestly, sometimes something as stupid as "don't be depressed" ignites a tiny spark of anger, which can be turned into all kinds of things but chiefly an impetus to seek change.

While no one genuinely chooses to be depressed, staying depressed is a fucking choice, as is choosing to get better.

Hassknecht said:
External influences impact the mind in a massive way, though, so helping people in need works. It might take time, but it works. While a significant part of the personality is apparently genetic, everyone can be taught and influenced.
My point here is that some people in shitty situations can make it out of there on their own. Others can't make it on their own, but can be taught to.
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You absolutely cannot help people who don't want help. It doesn't work. Trust me, I've fucking tried often enough. And wanting help is a choice they have to make.
 
Cliffy McEdgeface said:
Humans are not piles of quantum mechanics. I don't believe in the concept of soul or spirit but there is SOME factor at play that ends up turning psychology into the crapshoot it currently is. It could well be that the human brain is simply so mindbogglingly complex that it is effectively impossible to accurately predict the results of all decision trees that take place, but if that's true and the brain's decision trees are unsolvable equations and coin flips consequently become at least as accurate if not more so than predictions based on psychological experiments... then to say free will is an illusion constitutes some kind of masturbatory attempt to save face at the fact that you can't actually crack the puzzle. Free will exists because we can't (and possibly never will) figure out how to open the box with the cat in it, so to speak. Moreover, the harm involved in telling absolutely everyone that they are purely causal creatures, slaves to their chemistry, is potentially so immense (primarily because there are THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of people looking for this kind of precise excuse to never do anything to genuinely better themselves) that I have to ask why you would even WANT to open the box. You might prove that you can, but you'll have a harder time proving that you should.
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I'm not talking about psychology or the act of actually predicting behaviour perfectly. I'm talking about the physical reality of determinism. The fact that the systems are too complex and chaotic to accurately predict doesn't mean that they're not deterministic, which they absolutely are. The point of this is to explain to you that people are different, and that not everyone is able to think in your or my or anyone elses way.
Also, please don't invoke Schrödinger's Cat in a way that is even more nonsensical than the way it is usually invoked by laymen. You're mixing it up with Pandora's Box, it seems. I can happily give you some explanations on Schrödinger's Cat and the Copenhagen Interpretation and wavefunctions, though.

Cliffy McEdgeface said:
This is exactly where the "chemicals and causality" path leads, however, and the fact that you can't see that would worry the hell out of me if you were anyone of import in the relevant scientific field.
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No, it doesn't. It's more of a Catch 22 situation than anything else. In the end, the determinism doesn't actually affect us in a meaningful way, it just serves to explain that different people think in different ways.

Cliffy McEdgeface said:
While saying "don't be depressed!" in and of itself is not particularly helpful, the "get some help" that might follow might well be significantly more so. The thing about depressed people is that like most anyone else they actually don't cope so great with big changes and clawing your way back from that abyss requires a number of changes in your life, everything from good habit building to proactive research into medications (as needed). Sometimes they need to be prodded fairly hard to crawl out of that hole, because as miserable as they are in that hole, it becomes strangely comfortable to just sit there for however long it takes to simply wither away. That being said, some depressed people hit a certain point where they realize they absolutely HAVE to change something in their lives. And honestly, sometimes something as stupid as "don't be depressed" ignites a tiny spark of anger, which can be turned into all kinds of things but chiefly an impetus to seek change.

While no one genuinely chooses to be depressed, staying depressed is a fucking choice, as is choosing to get better.
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Well, thanks for solving depression. You truly are a genius.
Just choose not being depressed. Damn. Who knew it would be so easy?

Cliffy McEdgeface said:
You absolutely cannot help people who don't want help. It doesn't work. Trust me, I've fucking tried often enough. And wanting help is a choice they have to make.
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Just a choice to make. Sounds easy enough. It'd be terrible if there was like a chain of events that led to people choosing to not want any help, and that some people can't make that choice by themselves, needing external help. It's almost as if we actually agree on this.
 
Hassknecht said:
I'm not talking about psychology or the act of actually predicting behaviour perfectly. I'm talking about the physical reality of determinism. The fact that the systems are too complex and chaotic to accurately predict doesn't mean that they're not deterministic, which they absolutely are. The point of this is to explain to you that people are different, and that not everyone is able to think in your or my or anyone elses way.
Also, please don't invoke Schrödinger's Cat in a way that is even more nonsensical than the way it is usually invoked by laymen. You're mixing it up with Pandora's Box, it seems. I can happily give you some explanations on Schrödinger's Cat and the Copenhagen Interpretation and wavefunctions, though.
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Sloppy analogy, but you know what I meant (If you don't want laymen fucking with your quantum crap for analogies, I suggest not opening that door for us in the first place like you did). In regards to how people think: I would say that given people's general propensity for thinking almost exactly the same damn things (referred to as herd mentality) I actually am not convinced that you COULDN'T create some kind of fucking gestalt using people's collective, general thought processes. There's a reason some people get called NPCs.

Hassknecht said:
No, it doesn't. It's more of a Catch 22 situation than anything else. In the end, the determinism doesn't actually affect us in a meaningful way, it just serves to explain that different people think in different ways.
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That's, like, your opinion, man. There are ALREADY people (admittedly insane, but people nonetheless) who declare themselves slaves of the chemicals and electrical signals and such in their brains and use such rationalization to declare themselves free of guilt when they do something stupid or heinous. You want to turn that to 11 or something? If determinism doesn't affect us in a meaningful way, why bring it up? That's the definition of red herring, for fuck's sake. You're either walking back a stance you were developing or you're just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. Which is it?

Hassknecht said:
Well, thanks for solving depression. You truly are a genius.
Just choose not being depressed. Damn. Who knew it would be so easy?
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Journeys of a thousand miles begin with a single step. Don't be obtuse, though I know it's hard for you.

Hassknecht said:
Just a choice to make. Sounds easy enough. It'd be terrible if there was like a chain of events that led to people choosing to not want any help, and that some people can't make that choice by themselves, needing external help. It's almost as if we actually agree on this.
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We don't agree, because you ALWAYS HAVE THE CHOICE and short of being deprived of life and liberty there is always a way to take that choice. The choice being difficult to see or difficult to make does not absolve you of making a BAD choice when you choose the opposite, un-constructive option.

Your approach to this whole thing would ENCOURAGE people to wallow in depression or mental illness in general simply because they can (and will) use your "logic" to rationalize away the fact that they had and have choices and they can start choosing well any time now.
 
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The fact that people take the whole "everyone's different" thing absolutely prima facie makes me laugh, as while it seems to be some plainly obvious thing it always, ALWAYS gets taken too literally/to some ridiculous extent. People are REMARKABLY fucking similar barring a few serious outliers here and there who generally either get treated as pariahs or rockstars, depending on how attractive to the masses their various "quirks" tend to be.

Hell, I would argue that the "special snowflake" mentality has been one of the more corrosive things to come about, and it comes from taking the concept of "everyone's different" to its "logical" conclusion. Despite what you might think, no, you're not a special snowflake, you're all forks. Some of you are covered in rhinestones, and some of you have bent tines, but you're all fucking forks.

just-because-you-are-unique-doesnt-mean-you-are-useful-quote-1.jpg


But this is getting off topic. I've already stated my stance on gun control multiple times, and unsurprisingly got mocked by "reasonable" people (tell me how reasonable it is to react to a demand by a law-abiding citizen to not have his shit fucked with by fucking with his shit. Go on, tell me, assholes)
 
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BigGuyCIA said:
It's just not worth dignifying your diatribes with a thoughtful response. I'm surprised @Hassknecht bothers after you've been flaming 90% of the people in this thread. And here I thought Scalper was grating.
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I'm more inclined to think you have no thoughtful responses to much of anything. As for flaming people? I give back what I get, and I don't believe in proportional response when dealing with internet slappyfights. It's already been established that at least 90% of you are fucking cunts, so I'm going to treat you accordingly.
 
Spare me the lecture. You go in on people in threads like some obnoxious ape and now you're trying to take some moral high ground of "I give people what they give me." I can't fathom what Hass said to you that required the response of calling him a faggot for several pages, but knowing him more than you it probably didn't take much outside of just responding to a post you made to trigger you.

Trying to mount your high horse after acting like a total fucking baboon in this thread (and others) is rather entertaining to say the least.
 
BigGuyCIA said:
Spare me the lecture. You go in on people in threads like some obnoxious ape and now you're trying to take some moral high ground of "I give people what they give me." I can't fathom what Hass said to you that required the response of calling him a faggot for several pages, but knowing him more than you it probably didn't take much outside of just responding to a post you made to trigger you.

Trying to mount your high horse after acting like a total fucking baboon in this thread (and others) is rather entertaining to say the least.
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Yeah like calling someone a faggot is such a HUGE fucking deal. Do you know where you are right now? Even Hass notes that I used to be fairly civil. Now fucking ask yourself why the fuck I would do a 180 on my approach to dealing with you shitheads.
 
BigGuyCIA said:
You just undermine your entire point by doing so. You can skate around it and act like it's no big deal, but anyone viewing your post vs Hass' would conclude that Hass is probably sane and you belong in a mental ward.
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It's a fucking word on the fucking internet. It is not a big deal. If you think my point is that words are a big deal, you're fucking retarded.

BigGuyCIA said:
It's the verbal equivalent to a monkey throwing his shit at people because he's trying to make a point but not realizing he's actually human and has the English language at his disposal. Are you not embarrassed by this garbage or does everyone on this forum just cringe and put you on ignore so they can pretend that people like this don't actually exist?
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I made my points long before. I'm not here to belabor those points any further, at this point I'm here to call you miserable shitcocks because you are miserable shitcocks and I honestly think there's been a serious deficiency in reminders of that fact in your fucking lives.

BigGuyCIA said:
I find that so hard to believe. I don't even believe you were fairly civil to begin with. You're an easily frustrated baboon that's grasping for any excuse to justify his shitty behavior, and by extension, his shitty belief that complex topics like depression (et al) are just on/off switches because you managed to anecdotally wriggle your way out of poverty and became a "functioning" (questionable) member of society.
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Poverty? As if that were the worst thing I ever had to deal with, cocksucker. Regardless, I don't care what you believe at this point and it's a wonder I ever did. I act like a dick here because that's all you fucksticks are worth and have ever been worth. I act like a dick because it's fun to be dicks to other dicks. I don't even act like a dick everywhere here, I act like a dick where it's clear there's no fucking point in throwing pearls before swine by exercising restraint, politeness, etc. You are a shitty excuse for a person on a shitty excuse for a forum moderated by a shitty excuse for a "libertarian" and filled nearly to the brim with people just as or more shitty than you. You could say I'm trying to fit in, but even I don't believe that, because why would I want to fit in with people like you?
 
Cliffy McEdgeface said:
You could say I'm trying to fit in, but even I don't believe that, because why would I want to fit in with people like you?
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Given that, by this point, you have directly and indirectly (mostly former) offended roughly 90% of people on this forum (including those that actually agree with you on the proper topic), I do need to ask - why are you around here anyway?
You obviously don't fit in and you don't want to fit in, but you spend ridiculous amount of time offending people here and generally alienating them from anything worthwhile you might have to say. Why are you doing that? Does that get you off? Do you feel better about yourself? Don't have better ways to spend your time?

I am honestly at a loss trying to find a response to these questions which wouldn't be laughable or just sad.
 
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Atomkilla said:
Given that, by this point, you have directly and indirectly (mostly former) offended roughly 90% of people on this forum, I do need to ask - why are you around here anyway?
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Being offended means jack and shit. If I offended you, good. If the worst you ever have to deal with is being offended by something, consider yourself a very lucky man.

Atomkilla said:
You obviously don't fit and you don't want to fit, but you spend ridiculous amount of time offending people here and generally alienating them for anything worthwhile you might have to say. Why are you doing that? Does that get you off? Do you feel better about yourself? Don't have better ways to spend your time?
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Because it's honestly pretty fun to be an unrepentant dick to you people. Better ways to spend my time? This is something I can generally do while I handle finances, correspondence, bills, and other mundane shit. I mean, I can do this on breaks at work, and fuck knows I'd rather flick lit verbal matches at you shitheels than play some godawful mobile game or talk to my coworkers.

Atomkilla said:
I am honestly at a loss trying to find a response to these questions which wouldn't be laughable or just sad.
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Well, don't strain yourself or anything.
 
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