Hamas leader pwned
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welsh
Junkmaster
King of Creation said:
The problem, as I see it, was that a lot of people supported the war.
Don't forget Bush sold the war as
(1) A preemptive war to put an end to Saddam's Weapons of Mass Destruction- which never showed up.
(2) A continuation of the war against terror.
Following 9/11 a lot of people were sacred and supported the president in the "rally around the flag" effect.
Remember FDR saying, "We have nothing to fear, but fear itself." Well, a lot of Americans were motivated by fear.
But perhaps part of the problem in protest is (1) it's too confused and (2) it's not regular.
People look at protests as a means to take out their sign and shout out for any particular cause. They collectivize because the many voices together make a big voice. But the problem is that they are all shouting out for their own things, and the message gets distorted.
I think if there is a draft the students will go ballistic. I think you will see a lot less support for the war. Right now the people going are volunteers, they chose to join and knew the risks. But if you get people drafted- legally obligated to fight a conflict they either didn't care about or didn't want, then people will get pissed.
If that happens the message will be a lot clearer.
But that might be a shame too. I haven't bought a lot of how the war was sold or what the US has done, but the idea of getting rid of Saddam and foster democracy in the middle east was a good one. Making this issue into more of a political controversy would make more rational policy making on Iraq difficult or impossible.
In the end it looks like the US will withdraw and turn the game over to others. A draft before the election would probably be political suicide.
Telling someone to move out of his or her country if he or she doesn't like the government seems a bit naive. If that person has lived there for 50 years and suddenly an evil Bush or Hitler (notice the resemblance) gets "elected", that person probably won't make such an important decision so lightly. I mean, how many Germans fled the country when Hitler showed up? Not many, IIRC. Even most jews stayed, because you simply can't tell someone to leave their home, family, belongings and memories without expecting a little bit of protest. Democracy as we know it is often a joke. The people are in charge for about a week, during elections. And that's it. Just look at the US. Don't go around telling people to "emigrate". I like my country and even if a dictator were to seize power I wouldn't be too keen, at least not instantly, to move out. And I'm 18. Imagine how it would be for a 40 or 50-year old. Better yet, an 80-year old.
To_L1K: Okay then, I'm sorry. You're fucked. 
Seriously, though, you are still responsible, at least in part, for what your government does as long as you profit from the benefits from your government as well. Sadly, the draft is a horrendous thing, and it should never be used. I hate it.
Baboon:
That.does.not.matter. If you don't want to emigrate because you like it too much in your country, then you must accept responsibility for your leader. You may not have voted for him, you may even hate him, but you ARE responsible for him as logn as you continue to live in the country. I'm not telling you to emigrate, I'm telling you to either accept the fact that you are partly responsible, or to emigrate.
The same goes for those old people, I"m not saying that they have to move out; I'm merely saying that she should also accept their responsibility. It's not a hard or costly thing to do you know.
Seriously, though, you are still responsible, at least in part, for what your government does as long as you profit from the benefits from your government as well. Sadly, the draft is a horrendous thing, and it should never be used. I hate it. Baboon:
That.does.not.matter. If you don't want to emigrate because you like it too much in your country, then you must accept responsibility for your leader. You may not have voted for him, you may even hate him, but you ARE responsible for him as logn as you continue to live in the country. I'm not telling you to emigrate, I'm telling you to either accept the fact that you are partly responsible, or to emigrate.
The same goes for those old people, I"m not saying that they have to move out; I'm merely saying that she should also accept their responsibility. It's not a hard or costly thing to do you know.
Are the opponents of the dictator or despot that seizes power responsible too? Say that to the Chileans or many other Latin Americans, will you? While your argument might be very well suited in certain situations, such as Nazi Germany, in most cases it's just too simple. I don't think just leaving or staying in the country does it, I think one is responsible for him if, and only if one doesn't at least try to do something. Also, this argument doesn't hold if the dictator was installed by a foreign power (which is very often the case).
No. They are NOT responsible then, because the dictator was NOT elected by the population in general in a democracy. Read more carefully next time.
But what if he was elected democratically by lying to the people and THEN went postal?
welsh
Junkmaster
Then there is a problem in the rules, and the institutional rules should be changed. There have been plenty of dictators that have come to power through election.
But I will disagree with Sander on the notion of responsibility and dictatorship.
One of the differences, to me at least, is that in a democracy you have citizens. Citizens are vested with rights, but with rights come responsibilities. It is human nature to take what is given and not to pay for it, so it's not surprising that people love their rights and not their responsibilities.
The question about responsibilies is, rather, who pays the bill and that can be answered without discussing morality or ethics.
However, if you want to talk about morality and ethics, than yes, the citizens of a democracy are arguably more responsible.
But people in a dictatorship could be responsible for it too. Consider for instance the Baath Party in Iraq. Some people joined not out of will but out of opportunity. By supporting the Baath party they aslo support the regime in power. Are they responsible?
Rarely does a dictator not have the support of some constituents, probably never. Are those constituents responsible? Yes, arguably. Some benefit, some are repressed. Would those who are repressed accept the benefits if offered? Perhaps.
Did the Japanese who were nuked at Hiroshima bear responsibility. In tangible ways- yes. They stood to benefit if the Japanese war had been fought and they weren't exactly rebelling and probably supported the war. Where they ethically responsible?
But I will disagree with Sander on the notion of responsibility and dictatorship.
One of the differences, to me at least, is that in a democracy you have citizens. Citizens are vested with rights, but with rights come responsibilities. It is human nature to take what is given and not to pay for it, so it's not surprising that people love their rights and not their responsibilities.
The question about responsibilies is, rather, who pays the bill and that can be answered without discussing morality or ethics.
However, if you want to talk about morality and ethics, than yes, the citizens of a democracy are arguably more responsible.
But people in a dictatorship could be responsible for it too. Consider for instance the Baath Party in Iraq. Some people joined not out of will but out of opportunity. By supporting the Baath party they aslo support the regime in power. Are they responsible?
Rarely does a dictator not have the support of some constituents, probably never. Are those constituents responsible? Yes, arguably. Some benefit, some are repressed. Would those who are repressed accept the benefits if offered? Perhaps.
Did the Japanese who were nuked at Hiroshima bear responsibility. In tangible ways- yes. They stood to benefit if the Japanese war had been fought and they weren't exactly rebelling and probably supported the war. Where they ethically responsible?
Then you're responsible because he got elected through the electoral process, and then used that to get more power.
Welsh: For me, there is a clear difference between the responsibility of someone in a democracy, who can benefit from the government out of free will, and is thusly responsible, and those in a dictatorship who have no choice. Clearly, though, it is the case that you are responsible when you are offered the benefits, accept them and do not resist to the dictator.