Hero of the Wastes

Brother None

This ghoul has seen it all
Orderite
Gamers With Jobs' Allen Cook offers us his thoughts on Fallout and Fallout 3, from the perspective of a post-apocalyptic fan. Spoilers follow.<blockquote>It's no accident then that the original Fallout, like its inspiration, Wasteland, is one of the most open-ended RPGs ever made. Just watching someone else's apocalyptic story simply won't do in a video game. No, a video game is unique in that it's not just the developer's story they're telling; it's yours as well. And the only story worth playing in the apocalypse is the story the man with the knowledge: The hero. The one who walks out that Vault door, armed with the sum total of human knowledge. The person who has to face the Wasteland and decide what to do with the bits of information in his head. Humanity's last best chance for survival. It's what makes apocalyptic heroes truly heroic, or--in some cases--truly villainous.

Choice is integral to the apocalypse. The entire point of being the most important person in the history of mankind is that you're now the most powerful person in the history of mankind. Every time you run into an inhabitant of the Wasteland, you've got one up on him. “I bet he doesn't even know who Abraham Lincoln was”, you say to yourself, “let alone how this plasma rifle I'm holding works.” With great power comes great responsibility, and great opportunity to kind of act like a dick.
(...)
Which is ultimately why Fallout 3's ending was so disappointing. Of all the choices that the Capital Wasteland provided the player, the only choice you had in the end was whether or not to kill yourself. The Master in the original Fallout offered a multitude of choices in how you face him. Almost every way you could do something in the game, you could use on the final boss. It was a truly satisfying ending because it was all about choosing what you wanted to do with the final villain. Fallout 3 gave you a binary choice: good or evil. Somehow, about ¾ of the way through the game, Bethesda forgot about that story you were telling, and decided instead to tell you their own.

The ending of Fallout was open-ended and was all about the player. Your choices in the game ultimately decided the fate of everything you touched. The ending told a tale of the Vault Dweller's exploits in the Wasteland, each town getting its own epilogue written by the player. Fallout 3 simply had a binary ending: You did or you didn't. Fallout 3 not only failed to provide any resolution to the various stories the player encountered in the Capital Wasteland, it failed to take into account all but one of the player's choices in the ultimate story of the game. In the end, the story of the Capital Wasteland was written by Bethesda, not the player.

It's not to say I didn't enjoy Fallout 3. I was glued to the keyboard. Fallout 3 is, in fact, a great game. The other ¾ of the game is a brilliant example of player choice and how to let the player have fun running wild in a fascinating world.

But in the end, Fallout 3 just forgot the central tenet of the apocalypse. It's my way, or the highway.</blockquote>
 
As Fallout knowledgeables will know, he's wrong: Fallout's open-choice nature stemmed from its emulation of pen-and-paper gameplay and was a part of the game's design philosophy before the setting was finalized.

The thought is nice, but he's wrong.
 
I am no Fallout knowledgeable or anything, but I think I agree with the author.
I believe I would have felt less free in a "before" apocalypse world, or any other fantasy world, where I would have been bound to society laws or rules.
The same emulation of pen-and-paper gameplay but in a baldur's gate setting would'nt have allowed you such freedom and consequence, cause you would'nt be in a world in a process of reconstruction.
I recognise the fact that the setting isn't everything (fallout 3 proved it), but it plays at least a role as important as the gameplay mechanic.
Well, just my two cents...
 
The setting followed the design logic. There's a reason the majority of RPGs are set in the medieval era. Times of lawlessness are the best settings for player choice.

The real question is, where are all the Spaghetti Western RPGs? (Da-dada-Da-dada-Da-dada-Da-Da-dada-DUH!)
 
Grayswandir, the setting simply makes it a bigger challenge to come up with a method of doing this, but it doesn't stop the open world gameplay. As the last Developer Profile mentioned, the guys were TASKED with coming up with multiple solutions to every problem. It didn't just work out that way, it was an explicit goal.
 
I have played Fallout for years. I was in like 7th grade when someone got it for me for Christmas or something. They knew I liked games and figured it looked like something I would play. Little did they know I'd play it a hundred times over. Then the second as well. You would run to the last second of the game just to do it with every single character type.

My point, I love Fallout 3 with a passion. I bought it 3 minutes after Wal*Mart was able to sell it to me. I went home and went through an amazing character creation that was far more interesting than any other character creation I've been through. I went and killed raiders in an elementary school. It was spectacular.

The end of Fallout 3 happened pretty much as I expected.... Like an epic. Because the story of Fallout 3 truly is an Epic in so many ways. I don't know if anyone else has covered this but the father figure leaving, the escape from the comfort zone, the forming of character starts in Megaton. Are you good or bad? Do you kill the people or do you spare them? If you pick evil you are foiled by the Brotherhood. If you pick good you are foiled by the situation in general. More than any game the Fallout series is about Epic stories. There is almost no reason for your character to be the one on this journey. In Fallout 1 you are merely one of the members of the Vault. Picked to go. In Fallout 2 you are a villager, you may farm or hunt. Who knows? But you are picked. In Fallout 3 you are just a boy after his father.

Oh yeah, the reason I was even going to reply... Even if the concept was picked before the setting it wouldn't have worked in too many other environments. The wasteland gives the game such a macabre feel. The artsy ambiance welcomes the creation of a story of legendary status.
 
Wow, talk about completely missing the point of Fallout. The last thing Fallout is about is telling an epic story, by any definition of that word. It's about open choices and real consequences to them. Fallout 1/2 had that going right into the endings, Fallout 3 didn't. That just shows how irrelevant the setting can be if you don't understand what you're working with.
 
Grayswandir, the setting simply makes it a bigger challenge to come up with a method of doing this, but it doesn't stop the open world gameplay. As the last Developer Profile mentioned, the guys were TASKED with coming up with multiple solutions to every problem. It didn't just work out that way, it was an explicit goal.

I am not sure that I fully understand what you mean, but my point was that, if you made a game with the exact same mechanic as fallout, but in a different setting, like for example a Baldur's gate or a vampire one, you couldnt offer the same freedom than in a postapocalyptic one. They still would be the same "three ways" to solve a probleme, but you wouldn't have the superiority over the world in a stone Age-like world. You, (the player and the vault dweller) have all the knowledge that the rest of the world has lost. Cause it's your world (or a very similar one) that has been destroyed. You know about history, nuclear war, IA, computers, cars, and you don't have to follow old rules anymore.

I think it's not a hasard if the fantasy world always tend to put a "you are special" spell on you, that allow you to complete an "adventure", coz when you where little, you wanted to be an "aventurer", a good or bad one...
First because our perception of fantasy is lineary (like a storytell or a Tolkien story) but also because the designer have to insert the player in a already existing (but imaginary) world. So he doesn't you to wander to far behind the curtains...

Well, basicly I just repeat the thesis of the author, so I'm gonna stop.
:D
 
Grayswandir said:
You know about history, nuclear war, IA, computers, cars, and you don't have to follow old rules anymore.

... Because this knowledge gives you some magical power that can have no counterpart in a modern or fantasy world?
 
…Well it’s not really about power, at least not that kind of power, or that would be the contrary of what I mean to say.
But more about imershun. Yeah, I know, a word that went so many times in the washing machine that just by using it lessen my argument. The drift between a postapo and our world is lesser than between ours and a fantasy.
So when you tell the farmer about how ameliorate his crop rendement, or when you speak with myron about jet, you can think, “hey, I know that, it’s something I know/understand”; if there is no light in this vault, I know I have to find the generators/interuptors, and I also know what happen when I trigger a nuclear device (even if nobody told me :oops: ). So even if it’s scripted, you can use your personal knowledge in the game, you then decide to give/use it or not.
In a fantasy world, if the crop are bad, it’s mostly because of a curse or something, involving some bad magic. Personaly I don’t know much about magic, but I don’t think it’s work in our world, so I have to follow the rules of the world created by the designer and to do what he wants to do (dance the mobo around the field, kill the sorcerer, find the stone of Zorglubland…)

In a modern world it’s slightly different, but if I wipe out an entire settlement, I would expect the police/army to move against me, and because there is an entire society if I play to long against them (like in gta I think), I would expect to lose. And there is also the matter of morality, far more rigid in a modern society. In a wasteland, you are the one who define morality, what is right and wrong.

Of course, like atomic said, I suppose you could find similar situation as the wasteland in the conquest of the West, the big migration of the dark age, or in any turning period of history for that matter. But I still think the wasteland fit the best for an open world.…
 
CriticalCheck said:
... Are you good or bad? Do you kill the people or do you spare them? If you pick evil you are foiled by the Brotherhood. If you pick good you are foiled by the situation in general. More than any game the Fallout series is about Epic stories. There is almost no reason for your character to be the one on this journey. In Fallout 1 you are merely one of the members of the Vault. Picked to go. In Fallout 2 you are a villager, you may farm or hunt. Who knows? But you are picked. In Fallout 3 you are just a boy after his father.
...
There is really not much of a difference in "good" or "bad" in Fallout 3. Even if you kill half of the Brotherhood in their Citadel they will still offer you help. regardless of what you did.
 
CriticalCheck said:
Even if the concept was picked before the setting it wouldn't have worked in too many other environments. The wasteland gives the game such a macabre feel. The artsy ambiance welcomes the creation of a story of legendary status.

That's banana oil. The setting is not much more than some cosmetics applied to an intricate system of game mechanics. The setting is what makes Fallout attractive, the game mechanics are what make Fallout so damn good.
Fallout scored high on both, it was a match made in heaven, but if one were to come op with a completely different but equally attractive setting and kept the same game mechanics, you'd have another hit. Mayhaps it wouldn't appeal to people who find post-apoc attractive, but it would appeal to others. Just like some men dig blond chicks and other men dig brunettes. They'll only fall head over heels if the chick is also beautiful on the inside, though.

Most developers fail terribly at one of these (or even both). And that's why they fail to make classics.
 
You can set your game in a gay anime world damnit, but if you'll make the mechanics compensate it, it won't matter (to most people anyway). Sadly enough, it won't work both ways.

Games are suppose to be enjoyable to play first and foremost, you can read books if all you care about is the setting and story (even though the same can be said about books - if the author has terrible writing and a good idea for the story, the book is still a failure). What good is a fantastic world to a game if every minute you play it breeds more and more frustration or simply is boring as hell? You kinda miss the point of making a computer game if the player needs to force himself to play it.

Not that I say that games don't need a good setting, but it isn't as important as making it fun to play.
 
Ravager69 said:
even though the same can be said about books - if the author has terrible writing and a good idea for the story, the book is still a failure

Not to derail the thread or anything, but I just wanted to point out something I read somewhere long ago, concerning comics and it sorta ties in with the whole game look/game mechanics thing: a graphic novel with a brilliant story but rather amateuristic drawings will still be considered a good graphic novel; a graphic novel with awesome art but a shitty story, will never be considered a good graphic novel. I think it was Scott McCloud who wrote it, but I'm not sure.
 
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