History of open-world games
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Bodybag said:
I long for the day when "it doesn't matter" or "it's minor as fuck" becomes an actual argument, rather than a plaything for internetz.
But it is what it is.
Jiggly McNerdington
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Afterburner Gum was only in Tactics? Huh. Had it in my head it was in FO2 for some reason. IIRC that was the only drug I ever used regularly.
Jiggly McNerdington said:
Nope, Tactics only. And its in-game effects were identical to those of the Jet in FO2.
Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Jiggly McNerdington said:
You may be thinking of mentats (+int), which I always used right before I'd level up for more skill points.
Bodybag
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Brother None said:
I'm glad we at least agree it's not a big deal
Next up: getting you to understand that your whole list of things that aren't canon makes a pretty flimsy counterargument to my hypothetical example, and I somehow get the feeling that Bethesda's* official explaination would be even more satisfactory (and more firmly rooted in lore), and all that that implies. Another thing, since you've mentioned them specifically a couple times now: why couldn't the BoS have taken Jet with them? I've got some really exciting fanfiction cooking up here if you're curious why I think they could have.But back to Bethesda* - who's been curiously silent on the whole deal - I'd actually love for them to come out and say they really do have Jet on the EC in Fallout 3, then the shitstorm you've muted could resume its natural course instead of it just being ol' vomitbag riling up the townsfolk.
I really do try to provoke rational discussion, y'know (though it usually takes a lot of snark and veiled threats to get there) and I think you can tell I'm genuinely curious why people think this would be a big deal. I'm not sure if my position was too subtle on the subject, but I'll just come out and say that it's not a dealbreaker for me. But hey, if you've got some hard data that might change that, don't hold back!
Human Judgement: player skill?
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I don't think the BoS would introduce jet anywhere. Much like drugs today, Jet turns potentially productive people into useless shitbags. Since it is clear the brotherhood on the EC was soooo fucked they needed to help out/recruit from the normies, why would they potentially taint their own human resource?
No you don't (I've never encountered an instance where thinly veiled trolling attempts fostered rational discussion), and no you aren't. You just don't care about Fallout lore, or at least about whether or not there's any sensible explanation for the Jet-being-on-the-east-coast thing (there isn't). Which is fine. But since you don't care, why are you arguing except out of the enjoyment of provoking poeple (i.e. trolling)?Bodybag said:
I think you missed out on the discourses whereby the revelation was made that not every little tiny detail of game mechanics in Fallout 1/2 was total gold and couldn't use improvement or revision. Such as, in the mentats example, I don't think many would say that you should be able to up your stats with Mentats before every level so you can get the maximum amount of skillpoints without having to actually invest points in intelligence. I'd say that's more an oversight that was never rectified. The boost from Mentats should really only affect your intelligence for certain things (dialogue checks, stat checks to do certain tasks, etc.) but probably shouldn't affect the multiplier for skill points. Other than that, I can't imagine what you could mean by your remark, unless I just totally misunderstood.
Bodybag
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
DarkCorp said:
I don't mean that spreading the drug around is consistant with their mission statement or anything, but who knows, maybe one of the original party (or heck, maybe even a recruit they pick up along the way [hard times]) has a secret agenda, or is an addict, ect. It's not the way I would take the lore, mind you, but hey, it's a possibility.
[quote='Ol Vomitbag]the shitstorm you've muted could resume its natural course instead of it just being ol' vomitbag riling up the townsfolk. [/quote]
Heh. By the way, that 'vomitbag' line was more of a joke than an insult. 'Ol Vomitbag' has a certain charm the former hasn't, and makes me think of the brand of a cheap bottle of booze. I'll use your own version from now on.
Well, It certainly isn't something that would ruin the entire game. The gripe I have with this hypothetical situation is that it would be another example of a 'relaxed' approach to Fallout canon, coupled with a bit of a lack of imagination.
Sure, F3 is 'innovative' in respect to the previous games, there' s a lot of new things. It's just that the majority of those new elements (Fatman, Behemoth, Trash Elemental Armor to name a few) don't have much to do with the spirit of the predecessors.
I get the feeling F3's being made into this generic action RPG, with Fallout elements slapped onto it. "Hey, it's Fallout! It has Dogmeat in it!". Remember, painting stripes and putting a spoiler on your Toyota Corolla doesn't make it a Dodge Viper.
To return to the brahmin fumes shitstorm, It'd be cooler if someone came up with some other kind of plot motor than Jet. It made sense in F2, where there was a mafia-run city controlling mining operations, gaining power, wealth and influence over other factions. Regardless of the 'slapped-on' feeling I would get, I dunno, it wouldn't make much sense in the relatively small space of DC's ruins, already ruled by the muties.
Which, from what I can see in the concept art, converted the Jefferson Memorial building into the new vats.
Heh. By the way, that 'vomitbag' line was more of a joke than an insult. 'Ol Vomitbag' has a certain charm the former hasn't, and makes me think of the brand of a cheap bottle of booze. I'll use your own version from now on.
Well, It certainly isn't something that would ruin the entire game. The gripe I have with this hypothetical situation is that it would be another example of a 'relaxed' approach to Fallout canon, coupled with a bit of a lack of imagination.
Sure, F3 is 'innovative' in respect to the previous games, there' s a lot of new things. It's just that the majority of those new elements (Fatman, Behemoth, Trash Elemental Armor to name a few) don't have much to do with the spirit of the predecessors.
I get the feeling F3's being made into this generic action RPG, with Fallout elements slapped onto it. "Hey, it's Fallout! It has Dogmeat in it!". Remember, painting stripes and putting a spoiler on your Toyota Corolla doesn't make it a Dodge Viper.
To return to the brahmin fumes shitstorm, It'd be cooler if someone came up with some other kind of plot motor than Jet. It made sense in F2, where there was a mafia-run city controlling mining operations, gaining power, wealth and influence over other factions. Regardless of the 'slapped-on' feeling I would get, I dunno, it wouldn't make much sense in the relatively small space of DC's ruins, already ruled by the muties.
Which, from what I can see in the concept art, converted the Jefferson Memorial building into the new vats.
Wow Wooz, I never saw it.
I think you are right!
Bodybag said:
Their explanation for the BoS is technically rooted in lore, that doesn't mean it doesn't suck.
Bethesda was hella proud of their BoS backstory. Expected us to embrace it and hump their legs over it. If they can't even get the fact that their backstory is idiotic let alone why, they can't write a good backstory either. Why? Because you need to understand the material you're working with to do so. Some of their art, in-game and concept, implies that they do, but the BoS story pretty much affirms that they don't.
Bodybag said:
Couldn't? I never said they couldn't. They're not crippled, they have hands, so they can pick up Jet. Hell, you could make up a backstory where a vial of Jet got stuck between a Brahmin's two heads and he trekked cross-country and they found the vial, reverse-engineered it and now they have Jet. BRILLIANT!
I've said this so many times, and I'm still shocked that people don't get this: just because you can make up a backstory, doesn't mean there is a backstory that makes sense.
I can make up a backstory for Star Wars 7 where it turns out the Wookies are actually the real Masters of the Sith, Han Solo is gay and Leia and Luke bang it out to make an inbred Master of the Force. Is it possible? Yes. Does it make any sense? No.
Now, to go back to Fallout. The BoS storehouse in level 1 of their base contains some booze and some Buffout. Buffout is a non-highly addictive, highly beneficial drug they use for military purposes. In Fallout 2, Jet is a highly addictive, controlled by one family and omni-present wherever civilization is not. VC and NCR don't have it, nor would either city know how to make it.
So:
- Is it possible for one BoS initiate to take along some Jet? Possible, sure, though the BoS doesn't have many initiates and while the Vault Dweller kind of surprises them coming from nowhere, I doubt they'd take on Jet addicts.
- Would anyone on the BoS party know the way to make Jet? No. How would they? That knowledge is exclusive to Myron and the guys who work for the Mordinos.
Bodybag said:
On what whole deal? This Jet thing? It's an obvious mistake from PCZone, they don't need to comment on it. Hell, nobody even cares about it except for you pushing it for unclear reasons.
Besides, you've been around long enough to know Bethesda never steps forwards to correct screw-ups from the press. Their PR staff is too paranoid for that.
Bodybag said:
You would love for them to do something stupid just so we can get pissy again?
Now, don't get me wrong, I like the wrath of NMA as much as the next guy, but I'm not exactly keeping my fingers crossed for Bethesda to do more wrong just so we can be upset about it. They've done enough, quite frankly.
Bodybag said:
I don't think it's a dealbreaker for anyone. It's just another bit of stupidity piled on the pre-fabbed heap of stupidity.
For some, NOTHING seems to be a deal breaker.
They have totally changed EVERY aspect of the game itself, and only kept the setting and themes, because they are too unimaginative to just create their own stuff!
This game doesn't even resemble a Fallout game anymore. Sure it has some of the same settings, and some of the items share the same names, but let's stop kidding ourselves. This game is no more a Fallout rpg game than FOBOS was.
They have totally changed EVERY aspect of the game itself, and only kept the setting and themes, because they are too unimaginative to just create their own stuff!
This game doesn't even resemble a Fallout game anymore. Sure it has some of the same settings, and some of the items share the same names, but let's stop kidding ourselves. This game is no more a Fallout rpg game than FOBOS was.