I was playing fallout earlier, and something hit me. The legion are absolutley are a (in new vegas) underused pathetic piece of crap of a faction and since then i've been thinking of ways they could've been better. The first thing that came to mind was that the map should've been expanded further east and added a couple of legion location, what I would've liked the most is if one of the locations was an actuall populised town, just so you could learn about how people who live under the legion feel and how they lead their lives instead of just NCR town, NCR town, independent town, NCR town, Vegas. Does anybody else have any ideas?
How could've the Legion be less...terrible?
- Thread starter Mr Krepe
- Start date
Interesting topic, thinking here.
Well actually sticking more to the Roman ideal rather than the Sparta one in which the society consisted of soldiers and servants/slaves.
The Romans in general respected the groups/cultures they conquered, they expected them to accept Roman rule and would encourage more Pro Roman thinking but I don't recall as extreme as Caesar's Legion did.
And not this whole obsessions about enslaving almost every town.
Perhaps taking a portion of the population or demanding tribute but I got more the idea they simply enslaved entire populations with exception of the random trader.
Well actually sticking more to the Roman ideal rather than the Sparta one in which the society consisted of soldiers and servants/slaves.
The Romans in general respected the groups/cultures they conquered, they expected them to accept Roman rule and would encourage more Pro Roman thinking but I don't recall as extreme as Caesar's Legion did.
And not this whole obsessions about enslaving almost every town.
Perhaps taking a portion of the population or demanding tribute but I got more the idea they simply enslaved entire populations with exception of the random trader.
Yeah I was rather taken a back by that idea as I actually took classical history in school so all of this 'the legion is very nasty, they enslave everyone and don't give a donkey's bollocks about there past and the towns culture' because that is no way the way the actuall legions behaved. If Caesar got the idea for legion from some history books, why didn't he get the idea to preserve towns history and culture.
The thing is new vegas is a great game, it's just that an apprently 25% of the game is terrible, obsidian really let me down on the legion.
The thing is new vegas is a great game, it's just that an apprently 25% of the game is terrible, obsidian really let me down on the legion.
Threepwood
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
The problem is systemic throughout the game. The way the factions are implimented and used, it just dosen't work.
You get half way, when all of a sudden there is one point when these quests veer off from one another, the whole design needs to be reworked, no more starting in Goodsprings etc.
For the Legion, or any of the factions in the game for that matter, to be fully realised, the player has to see them first hand, near the start of the game, not once in Nipton, then at the end sometime. Hoover Dam should play a constant and pivotal role in the story, the extent to which the reworking is needed is beyond my capability, or effort to attempt to write down, but thats my theory anyway.
The entire West area is a blank space. The fort and The Legates Camp are the only territory on that huge area. Heck, i'd have setlled for open land and a couple of camps. Anyone who plays Legion knows how much being branded a terriorist by NCR sucks, the Legion needs its own land for the player to roam, equal to the NCR's massive ammount of facilities and quests.
On the actual subject of making the faction, the lore etc less crappy. The idea is just plain bad. I think The Khans is stretching it as it is. Heck, I mean, a neutral evil faction with a bad ass, and historical look? Adapt from the SS, that fits more in with the mass enslavment and pureness of the Legion, than the Roman ideals. Elite troopers in gas masks and black cloaks would also be more belivable than some scrawny kneed football players in torn skirts.
You get half way, when all of a sudden there is one point when these quests veer off from one another, the whole design needs to be reworked, no more starting in Goodsprings etc.
For the Legion, or any of the factions in the game for that matter, to be fully realised, the player has to see them first hand, near the start of the game, not once in Nipton, then at the end sometime. Hoover Dam should play a constant and pivotal role in the story, the extent to which the reworking is needed is beyond my capability, or effort to attempt to write down, but thats my theory anyway.
The entire West area is a blank space. The fort and The Legates Camp are the only territory on that huge area. Heck, i'd have setlled for open land and a couple of camps. Anyone who plays Legion knows how much being branded a terriorist by NCR sucks, the Legion needs its own land for the player to roam, equal to the NCR's massive ammount of facilities and quests.
On the actual subject of making the faction, the lore etc less crappy. The idea is just plain bad. I think The Khans is stretching it as it is. Heck, I mean, a neutral evil faction with a bad ass, and historical look? Adapt from the SS, that fits more in with the mass enslavment and pureness of the Legion, than the Roman ideals. Elite troopers in gas masks and black cloaks would also be more belivable than some scrawny kneed football players in torn skirts.
ramessesjones
It Wandered In From the Wastes
I think the main things that would help would be a functional, safe and productive legion city away from the front lines, and more back story on how bad Arizona/New Mexico were before the rise of the Legion and what the Legion has done to improve the area than the small amount you get from Raul and Caesar.
Plautus
Angry Preacher
Yes, making the Legion less extreme would have improved them. I think that the Legion should be able to rival the NCR in some ways, but not all.
For one, I am all for changing the Legion's equipment to real metal armor and helmets, like actual Roman post-Marian legionaries. I've had this discussion before on other forums and I understand that having too nice of clothing would ruin the post-apocalyptic feel; however, if the Legion is centered around martial power, then they would invest plenty into their equipment. Also, Roman gear from Caesar's time wasn't terribly complex, just a chainmail vest and metal helmet. Gladii would have also been nice, but I think it would have been better if the Legion troops had both Roman-style swords (at least have the machete-Gladius replace the machete for the Legion) and some type of gun. With better, non-Mad Max looking armor, the Legion would be more credible as a fighting force, like the NCR. Actually, I'd argue that making matching chain mail and helmets for all the legionaries is more credible than finding them all football gear....
Then, make them, as Dutch Ghost said, not hell-bent on enslaving everything that breathes. Rather, make them practical in their methods, by demanding some tribute, but not doing horrible things to everybody. Perhaps, let us see a Legion town, under a new Legion colonization system. Here are the steps.
1. The Legion rolls in and kills or enslaves opposition.
2. The Legion imposes tribute in exchange for protection and Legion resources.
3. The Legion installs a military governor, perhaps a 'tribune', as officers in the Roman army were called. Since tribunes weren't actually put in the role of governing settlements, this instance could show how Caesar's knowledge of Roman history is still limited.
4. The town carries on peacefully, though it is re-purposed to supply the Legion with raw materials.
Next, raise women's status in Legion lands. Real Roman wives were not slaves, but rather trusted informants and counterparts to their husbands. While the Roman man was away on business or at war, the wife would manage the household. While this system might be impractical in Fallout, it should at least be represented by Legion women being strong matrons, and proud wives, instead of weak slaves.
I've mentioned increased Frumentarii 'terrorist' action before, involving a better disguises perk and more Vulpes before.
I've also mentioned challenging Lanius and becoming Caesar's Legate, in so doing gaining a Roman name, like the player could get a gangster name in Fallout 2's New Reno.
Also, the real Romans were masters of medicine, and their battlefield medicine was superior to that of any other army's until after the American Civil War. While I don't expect this fact to be represented in Fallout, at least give the guys friggin' stimpacks!
EDIT: Eagles are great, and should be used in Caesar's standards.
For one, I am all for changing the Legion's equipment to real metal armor and helmets, like actual Roman post-Marian legionaries. I've had this discussion before on other forums and I understand that having too nice of clothing would ruin the post-apocalyptic feel; however, if the Legion is centered around martial power, then they would invest plenty into their equipment. Also, Roman gear from Caesar's time wasn't terribly complex, just a chainmail vest and metal helmet. Gladii would have also been nice, but I think it would have been better if the Legion troops had both Roman-style swords (at least have the machete-Gladius replace the machete for the Legion) and some type of gun. With better, non-Mad Max looking armor, the Legion would be more credible as a fighting force, like the NCR. Actually, I'd argue that making matching chain mail and helmets for all the legionaries is more credible than finding them all football gear....
Then, make them, as Dutch Ghost said, not hell-bent on enslaving everything that breathes. Rather, make them practical in their methods, by demanding some tribute, but not doing horrible things to everybody. Perhaps, let us see a Legion town, under a new Legion colonization system. Here are the steps.
1. The Legion rolls in and kills or enslaves opposition.
2. The Legion imposes tribute in exchange for protection and Legion resources.
3. The Legion installs a military governor, perhaps a 'tribune', as officers in the Roman army were called. Since tribunes weren't actually put in the role of governing settlements, this instance could show how Caesar's knowledge of Roman history is still limited.
4. The town carries on peacefully, though it is re-purposed to supply the Legion with raw materials.
Next, raise women's status in Legion lands. Real Roman wives were not slaves, but rather trusted informants and counterparts to their husbands. While the Roman man was away on business or at war, the wife would manage the household. While this system might be impractical in Fallout, it should at least be represented by Legion women being strong matrons, and proud wives, instead of weak slaves.
I've mentioned increased Frumentarii 'terrorist' action before, involving a better disguises perk and more Vulpes before.
I've also mentioned challenging Lanius and becoming Caesar's Legate, in so doing gaining a Roman name, like the player could get a gangster name in Fallout 2's New Reno.
Also, the real Romans were masters of medicine, and their battlefield medicine was superior to that of any other army's until after the American Civil War. While I don't expect this fact to be represented in Fallout, at least give the guys friggin' stimpacks!
EDIT: Eagles are great, and should be used in Caesar's standards.
@Pluauts
Well...
The chainmail isn't so exclusive to the romans. And visually it's not too appealing. I would really say use the 'lorica segmentata' (you know the armor shown in Asterix and Obelix and such).
And about medicine and such - the real romans (people from rome) weren't (as far as i know) exactly the driving force behind all technological advancements but they simply know how to adapt and use the knowledge of other nations.
I personally would simply delete references to rome from the Legion, because it's honestly a lot more easy than to fix the bad depcition of the Legion.
What would help though would be really showing how the Legion borught pease to some region in which tribes constantly waged war against each other. And than built some real city...
And especially get rid of their 'forced integration' (shattering tribes) and switch it more into the direction of encouraging taking the belives and such of the Legion (you know like only being able to hold power by becoming 'roman' which needs you to follow their culutre and such).
Well...
The chainmail isn't so exclusive to the romans. And visually it's not too appealing. I would really say use the 'lorica segmentata' (you know the armor shown in Asterix and Obelix and such).
And about medicine and such - the real romans (people from rome) weren't (as far as i know) exactly the driving force behind all technological advancements but they simply know how to adapt and use the knowledge of other nations.
I personally would simply delete references to rome from the Legion, because it's honestly a lot more easy than to fix the bad depcition of the Legion.
What would help though would be really showing how the Legion borught pease to some region in which tribes constantly waged war against each other. And than built some real city...
And especially get rid of their 'forced integration' (shattering tribes) and switch it more into the direction of encouraging taking the belives and such of the Legion (you know like only being able to hold power by becoming 'roman' which needs you to follow their culutre and such).
Bad_Karma said:
The change from chainmail to segmented armor was a logistic decision. Chainmail was actually better and more flexible but it is hard and time consuming to produce. WIth the large numbers of legionaries to equip, they switched to something easier to make.
In large armies looks, comfort and quality often have to take a backseat compared to ease of manufacture. Segmented armor looks better, but i guess i would curse that thing after having to tie up my bootlaces wearing it.
I've still yet to beat New Vegas (time constraints) but it seems to me that the dogma of the Legion is not a historical representation of the ancient Romans. Ceasar is just using parts that he thinks are useful or adopting other ideologies to suit his own purposes. He's not trying to directly recreate Rome... As such, pointing out flaws and inaccuracies in the the Legion's behavior in comparison to that of the Romans is frivolous.
And, sure, everyone having football shoulderpads may be goofy, but wasn't Leather Armor MKII described as being Motorcycle Ball armor? How many Raiders or NPCs did we see running around in that armor in the original 2 and nobody gave two shits that so many people had Pre-War armor...
And, sure, everyone having football shoulderpads may be goofy, but wasn't Leather Armor MKII described as being Motorcycle Ball armor? How many Raiders or NPCs did we see running around in that armor in the original 2 and nobody gave two shits that so many people had Pre-War armor...
Anarchosyn
Still Mildly Glowing
Mr Krepe said:
Probably for the same reason the Kings got the look of Elvis but didn't even know his name.
As Obsidian devs have said (Avellone?), Caesar appropriated elements of the Roman mythos to serve a purpose. When somebody approaches a subject like that they cherry pick what is relevant and leave the rest.
'Course, those are two separate answers. However, between the two, I was able to reconcile historical discrepancies.
My thoughts on the Legion:
I started playing New Vegas late (I waited for that last patch to drop 'cause I wanted Veronica's bugs ironed out). I was expecting to find the legion "goofy" based on all the discussion around here but, after reflecting on them a bit, I found their presentation very smart. Sure, the Roman stuff seems a bit ill placed at first but, from a development point of view, it really was the most inspired way to create a joinable faction that preached racism, murder, and fascist beliefs in a mainstream videogame. Yes, groups far worse get presented in games but rarely are you allowed to view them in a positive light. To do so is to give tacit approval to such ideologies and the smartest way to dodge that bullet is to keep a benign historical example squarely in the audience's frame of reference.
This is probably why they opted for the Romans over the Spartans (though 300 has certainly helped their image over the last few years).
Getting back on Topic:
I too lament that the Legion were such a crappy faction. I really wanted to keep an open mind and didn't chose to side with the NCR till about 50+ hours into my session. It just seemed all the missions were NCR -- all the people I met who helped me out were NCR.. I could find no in-character, role playing reason to continue my neutrality, especially when I'm running radio codes across the Mojave for NCR technicians.
The game needed either:
a) A Dragons Age-esque approach to the beginning of the narrative (i.e. different starting locations / scenarios.. though I don't specifically mean origin stories).
*or*
b) More legion territories, towns, examples of their social philosophy, legion companions and -- most importantly -- MORE MISSIONS.
About the only positive thing I stumbled across in my first 50-60 hours of play was Cass' commentary that the Legion protected trade caravans better than the NCR. Still, even this was presented from a companion with deep antipathies against the Legion.
Hell, you wouldn't even need to make the legion balanced from a cultural standpoint: make the legion an easy means to wealth and power (i.e. actually allow the player ease access to weapons, caps and maybe even influences over game play that an NCR aligned player lacked). Dangle a carrot, for goddess' sake!
Plautus
Angry Preacher
Bad_Karma said:
1. In pretty much every way possible, chainmail was more convenient on the battlefield than Lorica Segmentata; however, I can see the point with manufacture.
2. While the Romans did indeed have superior battlefield medicine to any other nation for until after the American Civil War, I'm not going to argue that further on a public thread. If you want me to explain their innovations later, I will. My point was that it seems foolish that they forbid the use of simple stimpacks and antiradiation drugs.
3. Getting rid of the Roman flavor of the Legion would ruin it completely, turning it into a bland and generic organization without merit. The historical flare adds to the memorability of the group, and improving upon that rather than removing it, while difficult, would be more worthwhile. It would be like taking away the American qualities of NCR. I think it is better to fine tune what they have, since it is a good base off of which to work.
4. I too think the forced integration thing should be dropped.
Plautus said:
I doubt a chainmail is better than an LS at resisting bullets, though.
Plautus
Angry Preacher
Tagaziel said:
Most antiquated forms of armor are ineffective at resisting bullets; however, the thicker bands of the lorica segmentata would probably be more effective. If anything, either armor would be used by the Legion to fight melee-based enemies, especially guys like the fiends. Considering most monsters in the game are melee based, I suppose both types of armor would help against them too.
In the Fallout universe, I think that the Lorica Segmentata would be the more practical of the two suits. While chainmail is great against slashing attacks, only a limited number of creatures and human enemies use such methods. Lorica Segmentata provides better protection against piercing strikes and crushing strikes, principally at the expense of mobility.
I had two main concerns with the segmented armor. First, it is uncomfortable to wear and ungainly to move in at times. Since Romans maintained tight formations and moved slowly on the battlefield, this armor suited them. Unfortunately, in gunfights, mobility seems to be an important factor. Second, it is a pain in the posterior to maintain. While easy to make, the Loricae Segmentatae always had issues with rusting hinges and the such.
But yes, bullets would cause less damage to that type of armor. Also, it would play to the theatrical more than the actual, and time and time again doing so has won the admiration of gamers.
Thomas de Aynesworth
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Lorica Segmentata would be more practical in manufacture. One could produce it out of various scrap sheet metal located all over the mid-west.
ramessesjones
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Wasn't one of the main reasons Caesars forbid healing chemicals due to scarcity and that he wanted troops to fight in a way that they would not be dependent on them? They do after all use things like healing powders or cave fungus that are renewable resources they can find for themselves.
All the major NCR camps in the game are constantly short of medical supplies and it hurts morale, with the Legion this is never really an issue, despite having far more troops getting wounded due to more primitive tactics and gear.
All the major NCR camps in the game are constantly short of medical supplies and it hurts morale, with the Legion this is never really an issue, despite having far more troops getting wounded due to more primitive tactics and gear.
brfritos
Humma Kavulaaaaaaa
Threepwood said:
Is not that isn't work, is that the whole thing is about the NCR and NCR only.
I was testing the reputation system for updating an article in the Wiki and discovered something very unpleasent: is hard to being shaunned, hated or vilified by the NCR, you really have to work for this to happen.
With Caesar's Legion, if you kill 4 or 5 legionaries your reputation goes from neutral to mixed or shunned. If you kill more 3 or 4 you are hated or vilified (if you are hated with the Legion they will send assassins to kill you, you will be vilified anyway). Hell, doing the quest "Booted" alone just vilify you with them!
The same goes from Khans, Powder Gangers, Boomers, etc.
Towns are the same thing if you kill 3 or 4 citizens or steal too much itens.
I have the "Accepted" reputation in Novac and then stealed all the itens in the shelfs of a Poseidon Gas Station inside the town.
My reputation becomes mixed.
This all happens except with the NCR.
I had the "Accepted" reputation with them. Then I wiped out Ranger Station Charlie, Foxtrot and Delta, Sharecropper Farms, 5 soldiers patrolling near East Pump Station, completed the quest "We Are Legion" by killing all the officers on Forlon Hope and killed the hostages in Boulder City, plus the soldiers.
After wipping out Charlie and Delta my reputation lowered immediatelly to mixed. Then after killing the soldiers near East Pump Station and Boulder City to Soft-Hearted Devil. After I did the rest to Mercyful Thug, wich still permits you to enter their facilities without being attacked.
Needless to say, I steal any item I've founded in this locations.
Still I'm not Vilified or Hated. Maybe killing everyone in Camp McCarran will do.
It's unfair.
[ ]'s
Wow guys, i said the Lorica Segmentata simply was visually more appealing, and i meant as a representation for the Roman Legion and given how chainmails look typically in games. I mean the lorica suqamata/plumata ('scale-mails') would also be fitting, but they also weren't really unique to the romans and therefore to visually represent the Legion the Lorica Segmentata is more recognizable.
If a normal guy thinks of the Legion he will have some picture being quite near to what Asterix and Obelix showed.
That this type of armour (the Segmentata) wasn't introduced to the real Legion because it was better than a chainmal is something i'm aware of. Okay i would argue that we don't know such things for sure, but that stems from the fact that we have discussions over and over on how good weapons/armors were in certain situations and scientists don't seem to reach some agreement.
As said in another thread allready showing some more forms of social behaviour would have been an important point.
Even such things like Aqueducts even when build from badly handled slaves would have added to a better picture.
@ramessesjones
The problem with medical treatments in the Legion seems still to be strange. I mean others seem to be able still to built Stimpaks.
And therefore even while the Stimpaks wouldn't be something normal, it's strange to propagate that they shouldn't be used under certain circumstances.
@Plautus
Well i prefer some generic raider group over a bad representation of the romans. I mean all the ideological problems we find, arise because they labeled their quite generic raider gruop 'Cesears Legion' while they're in nearly no way linked to the real roman legions.
So take away the label and people would at least not argue that this is not a good dpeiction of something really roman. And i think it's much less work than to correct all faults and add more depth to them.
If a normal guy thinks of the Legion he will have some picture being quite near to what Asterix and Obelix showed.
That this type of armour (the Segmentata) wasn't introduced to the real Legion because it was better than a chainmal is something i'm aware of. Okay i would argue that we don't know such things for sure, but that stems from the fact that we have discussions over and over on how good weapons/armors were in certain situations and scientists don't seem to reach some agreement.
As said in another thread allready showing some more forms of social behaviour would have been an important point.
Even such things like Aqueducts even when build from badly handled slaves would have added to a better picture.
@ramessesjones
The problem with medical treatments in the Legion seems still to be strange. I mean others seem to be able still to built Stimpaks.
And therefore even while the Stimpaks wouldn't be something normal, it's strange to propagate that they shouldn't be used under certain circumstances.
@Plautus
Well i prefer some generic raider group over a bad representation of the romans. I mean all the ideological problems we find, arise because they labeled their quite generic raider gruop 'Cesears Legion' while they're in nearly no way linked to the real roman legions.
So take away the label and people would at least not argue that this is not a good dpeiction of something really roman. And i think it's much less work than to correct all faults and add more depth to them.
Bad_Karma said:
Uh, that's the point?