How Europe Fails Its Young

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by John Uskglass, Sep 9, 2005.

  1. John Uskglass

    John Uskglass Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Aug 29, 2003
    http://www.economist.com/displaySto...=5577062-460e58bc-b289-4141-b7fe-144e5bf6482c

    Haha. Take that Sander, Kharn, Jebus and the rest of you Eurosexuals.
     
  2. frissy

    frissy Mildly Dipped

    531
    Feb 18, 2005
    Don?t worry. I?ll still think yanks are stupid (and fat).
    ________
    Justin Bieber Fan
     
  3. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    Interesting

    Leiden Univ, the one I'll be going to, is regionally ranked #2 regional (#72 worldwide) (under Utrecht #41 worldwide)

    Here's an alternative ranking, which equally puts the US at the top. Oddly enough it says the best Dutch uni is Erasmus, which is in my opinion...well...not. And Leiden is 131 under Eindhoven and Amsterdam!

    Back on topic, that list puts the top 20 division to 11 to the US, 4 to the UK, one for Switzerland, one for Japan, one for Australia, one for China and one for Singapore. I suggest you read that article, in fact, it is of interest.

    That said, US superiority in the academic level is an established fact, not something anyone is questioning and as hard to get by as the UK superiority in the European region.

    Consider our experience with the line of thinking that shouts "Privatization = everything is solved!" I'm a bit doubtful as to how well privatization could "fix it all", tho'

    PS: http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2005/ARWU2005TOP500list.htm
     
  4. Ratty Sr.

    Ratty Sr. Formerly known as Ratty Moderator Orderite

    Apr 23, 2003
    Haha lewl ur right!!11

    Actually, you aren't. Quality of a university shouldn't be measured by the amount of founding it receives and the number of Nobel Prize winners it employs, but by the quality of its *students*. My university, which has but a fraction of the budget of an average American educational facility, boasts students who are among the finest and academically most accomplished in the world. For example, FER (the study I'm currently enrolled in) is currently 8th on TopCoder list of universities with best young programmers, which is a two-place drop compared to the 6th place we occupied last month. *That's* the real indicator of a university's quality.
     
  5. John Uskglass

    John Uskglass Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Aug 29, 2003
    Uh, no, I don't think it is actually Ratty. That's literally impossible to measure, 'better students.' Might as well make up 'more ethical students' to try and defend your decrepid, diseased educational system. And it's not how much money the unviersity has alone, it's how many papers are cited, etc....you are grossly simplifying things.

    Anyway, you are right Kharn, I don't think Privitization=t3h W3N here. Coming to America for schooling = t3h W3N.
     
  6. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    Universities aren't just there to teach students, Rats, they're also research facilities

    Take a look at the methodology of that weirdname-univ:

    http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2005/ARWU2005Methodology.htm#Meth1

    Though it is interesting to note, then, that that study indeed is not so much about quality of education as student results are not factored in anywhere, just "how good is the staff" (50%, with only 10% for "quality of education"), the other 50% going to research and size

    The Times article states the same doubts about using Nobel prizes as a measure of quality. Apart from that, it also notes those rankings measure heavily on "article published in Science and Nature", thus giving an emphasis to scientific studies (no wonder Utrecht is above Leiden). Times itself ranks by peer review, international faculty score, international student score, faculty/student score and citations/faculty score.

    PS: actually, John, it's not that hard to measure better students, check the Times list, which has the London School of Economics with a 100/100 in international student score.
     
  7. Ratty Sr.

    Ratty Sr. Formerly known as Ratty Moderator Orderite

    Apr 23, 2003
    As Kharn pointed out, it is very much possible.

    Undergraduate and graduate engineering studies in America are pretty easy. I wouldn't mind going to USA to get post-graduate education, though, because it is superior to anything I have access to in Croatia.

    I know, I was pointing out that student accomplishments are another important factor that was (purposefully?) ignored in John's article. FER has always been the regional leader in terms of research, particularly in fields of cryptography, intelligent systems, pattern recognition and several other areas, though our scientific achievements have been relatively modest compared to what we *could* accomplish with better funding.

    I miss communism.
     
  8. Jebus

    Jebus Background Radiant
    Orderite

    Jan 29, 2004
    Hah, that article again.

    It's funny how the entire academic world orgasms over some obscure and severely under-grounded study (dude, I know I completely translated that wrong. I meant they base themselves on woefully little sources and criteria, check their 'methodology' section) - by some obscure Chinese university called 'Shanghai Jiao Tong University,' and published on a saddingly amateuristic website.

    But hey, don't we all love dumb statistics? Hey, Beligium has dropped two places to level 8 of best places to live! OH MY GOD LET'S DISSOLVE OUR GOVERNMENT


    Anyway, let us - for a second - actually assume that study is worth cock shit. Then we get back to that age-old discussion that has been held so many times: America has 17 (apparenly) great universities, and almost all the rest are crap. Europe has tons of university, and while apparently scoring lower on the employs-ex-nobel-prize-winners scale, they are all of very reasonable quality - and therefore offer good higher education to more than only the elite.

    This entire cliché is starting to bore me greatly. And anyone that argues that the average European is dumber than the average American, can still lick my little cornhole.
     
  9. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite

    May 18, 2003
    Yeah. Along with all the complex-induced compensatory Justificating Arguments. Mechanically using economics and sociological studies to prove anything my imbecile brain has assumed as right!

    As Koots once said on an entirely different debate, blocking out complications to a problem, an issue or a conflict is a direct consequence of wanting the world to be simple, and applying simplifications to it.

    'S not what I'd call "little" anymore.
     
  10. John Uskglass

    John Uskglass Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Aug 29, 2003
    Uh...sorry, but that's actually not true at all. We have pleanty of good, not excellent, not hyper-expensive schools.

    Your average Frenchman? Maybe not. Your average Serbian? Big 10-4. And I have no idea what the fuck you mean by dumber.

    Shanghai Jiao Tong University is one of the top 5 Unis in China, IIRC, you're sound a little annoyingly Eurocentrist again Jebus.
     
  11. Briosafreak

    Briosafreak Lived Through the Heat Death

    Dec 18, 2003
    If the issue at hand is the failure of the Lisbon strategy and the way Europe has missed the front runners boat in R&D and how it has stayed behind on many fields that was supposed to be better, then i finally can agree with something CCR brings us, and we should drink to that :) .


    If they are trying to say the average american uni is better than the average european uni, then sorry but that`s bollocks.

    Having said that it`s time to invest more on the sciences departements and expand the Bologna declaration to allow better sinergies in the studying process in Europe, we have less obstacles regarding patents and IPs so we should profit more on that, and now that the space industry is decaying in the States and the companies are all moving to India and investing in Chinese research centers there´s a chance of passing the best american unversities and research centers, i wonder if there`s enough will to do it though.

    On the non-tech areas we´re fine and dandy.
     
  12. Ratty Sr.

    Ratty Sr. Formerly known as Ratty Moderator Orderite

    Apr 23, 2003
    I don't know about Serbs, but Bosnia has 10% illiteracy rate. Bosnia = Somalia of Europe.

    EDIT:


    AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :D
     
  13. Maphusio

    Maphusio Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Sep 25, 2004
    I hate it when comments like that are oh so true.
     
  14. John Uskglass

    John Uskglass Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Aug 29, 2003
    Your average American is just not that much fatter then your average European, so go fuck yourself.
     
  15. inane

    inane First time out of the vault

    82
    Aug 28, 2005
    The sun never sets on my ASSHOLE not the British Empire and Universities are usually little more than paper factories...

    As for Americans being fat? Who gives a fuck?! That's like stating there a lot of fags in San Francisco... no one should CARE why it is or even THAT it is outside of other homosexuals! Which raises the question, are you FAT Frissy?? Who cares?

    Europe? Fuck em! Univerities? Fuck em! Fat people? Fuck em! Fags?........ er nevermind
     
  16. Maphusio

    Maphusio Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Sep 25, 2004
    So... we are sure that Frissy is an established European? You know there are many other countries in the world... I could be wrong on this... Let me pull up a map I bought in the store the other day... Now where did I put that??? Ahh yes here it is.


    Yeah, im pretty sure there is no other countries out there. lol
     
  17. 4too

    4too Vault Senior Citizen

    Apr 30, 2003
    The Hidden Marketing Politics Of Funding

    The Hidden Marketing Politics Of Funding



    Thread leading article:
    My personal experience would include that ""uni's"" , badger and shamelessly enterprise, to 'shake down' their alumni. It's got a 'tax deductible 'HOOK on the lure, the 'come on', also.

    U.S. Uni's are 'charitable institutions'.

    Nostalgia mining the aging 'educated'.

    And, it's the college sports entertainment industry, not always the self supporting cornucopia that it is touted' to be, that should convince even the frat's and 'cheer leaders' that IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY.

    It's all about MARKETING perceived assets, PARTY SCHOOLS, DRUNK'en COED HOOKERS, FOOTBALL AND BASKETBALL BETTING POOLS! The 'goood' life.
    The very best and brightest of Amerikan, pardon my spelling, American culture, [ as seen on TV, soon to be an HBO mini series!!].


    Uni's are cash cows.


    Hey sailors, psycho's, chickens, and Euro's want a 'goood' education?

    Step right up.




    4too
     
  18. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    A few choice quotes:
    And people here get a lot cheaper access to a university, it has nothing to do with better or worse, it's a different way of thinking about universities. As much as Europeans think it's horrible that you have to pay those insane amounts of money for a university, Americans feel they are getting better quality.
    I don't actually know whether they are getting better quality, yes they are getting better scientists and researchers, but as anyone who has ever been taught by a couple of different researchers and scientists, there is no correlation between quality of research and quality of education. People may know a lot about their field, but that doesn't mean they can explain it.


    Again, we have a different ideology. Education available for everyone, regardless of income.
    But this, at least not here, has nothing to do with availability of funds. Everyone can afford to go to university, with little to no problems. Whether or not they do is a different matter, which would mean we'd have to look at sociological consequences as well.
    Then again, my grandparents were farmers (on my mother's side) and owned a small trucking company, hence two generations back my family is working class. I'm in uni.
    My girlfriends father is a brick-layer, yet she's in university as well. Two friends of mine have farmers as grand-parents too, and go to uni too, as did their parents.
    As I said, everyone can afford it.

    I seem to recall that both the percentage of people from racial minorities and families with incomes below the poverty line are a lot higher in the USA, though.

    Oh, of course, but they're not of the level of Harvard, are they? If two job applicants come up, one from Harvard the other from some other school, which one will get hired? Exactly.
    And that's a lot less likely to happen in Europe.

    Dude, he was talking about Jebus' asshole. What the hell?
     
  19. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    Not really;

    Racial divisions in the USA; white 81.7%, black 12.9%, Asian 4.2%, Amerindian and Alaska native 1%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.2% (2003 est.)
    (that's 18.3% racial minorities, with 33% of those minorities being undergraduates)

    Population below poverty line: 12% (2004 est.)
    (12% with 25% in Uni)

    I have a hard time believing those numbers on minorities and poverty-stricken people in the USA in unis is correct, though. Anyone have a source?
     
  20. Ratty Sr.

    Ratty Sr. Formerly known as Ratty Moderator Orderite

    Apr 23, 2003
    OH GOD, NO MORE! :lol: :lol: :lol: