How good is Fallout Tactics' story?

[Reaper]

I will not dispute the fact that the BOS is very different in Tactics than in the other games.

I just think that the opening story bit explains why, telling you it is a different Brotherhood of Steel. Still one that cares for technology - you find out about the robots because you seek out the robotic parts in earlier missions.

All that changes is the view of outsiders. The BOS from the earlier games in California believed outsiders did not deserve the technology, nor could they handle it responsibly. They were right as well. However, the BOS in Tactics, an offshoot of the BOS we know and love (which is an offshoot because it disagreed with the original Brotherhood, hence the differences), see including some outsiders as a necessary evil.

I agree that the inclusion of ghouls, mutants and especially deathclaw was a dodgy decision, only added because, as you say, some designer thought it would be cool. I never used other races when playin Tactics because I had become attatched to my human squad (even though I only used my character, sending him in on solo missions most of the time).

Ghouls I have less of a problem with because they are still basically human, just very old and luminous, but the other races were pushing it too far, I feel.

You are right about the different castes, scribes, elders, and the warriors. I liked this aspect of the Brotherhood as it gave it a more complete feeling - it wasn't just a tooled up army. The Scribes and Elders seperated the BOS from the raiders far more than the technology.

I will again say, because I thought monosylabic response was unwarranted, that I liked your idea and I also liked the idea used. The implementation in the game wasn't great - poor infact, given that you had to buy weapons and medical care- but I still liked the game (you weren't supposed to love the BOS anyway - Barnaky's comments like "They must learn to obey our strict rules, and thus... be free" are amusing and are obviously designed to introduce the moral ambiguity into your actions - you are not a soldier for pure good, you fight for a human organisation with human goals, higher than most in the wastes but still human ones.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I will not dispute the fact that the BOS is very different in Tactics than in the other games.

I just think that the opening story bit explains why, telling you it is a different Brotherhood of Steel. Still one that cares for technology - you find out about the robots because you seek out the robotic parts in earlier missions.

Why bother writing crummy backstories to explain drastic (non-cannonical) changes when they could of invented a new gung-ho local militia to fill the role that the BOS played in FOT? The great thing about moving the game to another part of the country was the opportunity to start afresh, to show more of the Fallout Universe without conflicting with the facts established in the RPGs. Unfortunately they didn't bother (for whatever reasons) to come up with something new and just twisted and perverted what had gone before. There's plenty of established Falloutisms (Vaults, Nuka Cola, PipBoy, T 51b Power Armour etc etc) which could of been used to link to the RPGs without the need to include the BOS that weren't the BOS, Ghouls that weren't Ghoulish, DeathGoats that should never of been, Batman of the Future Power Armour, Anime Robots (when they allready had a humanoid bot from Fallout 2 to use).

 

[Reaper]

I agree.

They didn't need to stick with the BOS but I think they thought that by keeping them in the game, there would be enough of a link that would allow them to change a few things while still anchoring the game in the Fallout Universe.

It is understandable, though, that part of the BOS we met in the earlier games did think like those we see in Fallout Tactics. Therefore, the story describing this faction makes the differences in BOS style and ideology acceptable.

The main thing is that Interplay would not branch out to a fresh title when they knew there was a fan base ready for a new spin on the already established franchise.

Also they would have had to make a new game, give it a new feeling so it would not be like playing Fallout 2 but being able to control the NPCs. Hence some similariies, some breaks with 'canon'. Come on, who decides what is 'canon' they do and if they thought the mid-west would be like it is in Fallout Tactics, that is the way it is.

You guys want a fresh, new game but with everything the same. I can understand that because most gamers want more of the same but if they had tried to move the game and not use the BOS who were they going to make the world not seem like a carbon copy of Fallout 1 and 2, in which we would know exactly what to expect and it would just be a point and click shoot 'em up.

Interplay tried to make the world different enough to be new and interesting, similar enough to attract fans of Fallout and they had to tweak the BOS to explain why they interacted with the outside world.

I, for one, was pleased with the results.

 

[AaronHardy]

Also the BOS was military, not the US army by any means but they had ranks like knight and paladin = armoured warrior and palace guard (those are the basic translations). There was a clever feeling of an old Order like the Knights Templar but they also had a very distinct military side.

i see some problems with your statement.

1. a paladin is accualy a knight who fights for god and only god against those who opose god.

2. yes the 'order of the knights templar' had a distinct military code but it was there monks(scribes) who invented the first tresury system.(to keep track of the huge amout of gold they stored in their cathedral for the french)

 

[Reaper]

You've got it exacty but misread my point of view. I guess I wrote my post badly.

I liked the non-military aspects of the BOS because they made you feel you weren't a grunt in an army but a soldier fighting for a new order (the Scribes and Elders suggest a framework for society, ideology, and the quest for scientific advancement.) These castes in the Brotherhood give it character and stop it being a purely kickass bunch of gun-toting psychos (like the US Army - just kidding)

 

[AaronHardy]

ok i see your point of view now

 

[Reaper]

I was just thinking about so many of your comments describing Fallout Tactics as very unfallout. Now I do not live and breathe the Fallout universe (I love the games but am not a die hard protector of 'canon') so I missed all these things that ruined Tactics for you. All the problems that stopped it being Fallout, despite it having the same setting and using a modified version from the only surviving militarily powerful organisation from the earlier games, that could conceivably get hold of snazy technology.

I take your point that it didn't feel quite the same, and that is no doubt the result of the two main brains behind the Fallout series leaving interplay. I realise you probably know this already but when those the two main designers who also wrote the guide book, Matt Feargus and Dave Urquarte or something like that, left Interplay, the Fallout series was doomed to become another man's vision.

I realise you people are upset that Tactics was not extended combat scenes from Fallout 2 but I think they did the best they could to keep the post-nuclear war thing going with enough links with the old games to make you think this was a Fallout game and still acheive an enjoyable game (well enjoyable for some people - games are a matter of taste, I admit. There are probably games you love and I hate, just like you didn't like Tactics and I did.)

 

[Roshambo]

I was just thinking about so many of your comments describing Fallout Tactics as very unfallout. Now I do not live and breathe the Fallout universe (I love the games but am not a die hard protector of 'canon') so I missed all these things that ruined Tactics for you. All the problems that stopped it being Fallout, despite it having the same setting and using a modified version from the only surviving militarily powerful organisation from the earlier games, that could conceivably get hold of snazy technology.

I realise you people are upset that Tactics was not extended combat scenes from Fallout 2 but I think they did the best they could to keep the post-nuclear war thing going with enough links with the old games to make you think this was a Fallout game and still acheive an enjoyable game (well enjoyable for some people - games are a matter of taste, I admit. There are probably games you love and I hate, just like you didn't like Tactics and I did.)

I think that describes your problem right there.

You still don't get the clue that it had NOTHING of the setting and in fact went out of its way to piss all over the backstory and setting. How the hell is that supposed to "make you think this was a Fallout game and still acheive an enjoyable game"?

I also think it's amusing that you just barely avoid saying "Well, it's not meant to be an RPG!", when that is an entirely unrelated issue. The genre is completely different than the setting and story.

I also love how you display the flawed logic of any FOT supporter. "I had fun, so it's good!"

You guys want a fresh, new game but with everything the same. I can understand that because most gamers want more of the same but if they had tried to move the game and not use the BOS who were they going to make the world not seem like a carbon copy of Fallout 1 and 2, in which we would know exactly what to expect and it would just be a point and click shoot 'em up

There's a difference between making a game in a different genre and pissing over the universe's backstory. I'm sure you're not a complete imbecile that would miss what would happen if a Star Wars writer or George Lucas himself wrote Luke and Han into a gay love interest in Episode VII. Seriously, if you'd failed to understand the point about continuity and basic game setting design now, it's time to hang up the browser and eat your mouse.

 

[FearBoy]

Lighten up

I feel the story (this was the topic of the thread) was adequate for a squad-based strategic-combat RPG. So, maybe the story wasn't true to the Fallout Universe. Could this game have taken place in a parallel world? Who knows, but the game-play was good and the story was mildly motivating at best.

How many have played Final Fantasy games? Is it for the story? I don't think so. Each entry offered new play mechanics. The story was IDENTICAL throughout the entire series. That is the stance I take with Tactics

Oh yeah, it looks like the developers of our beloved Fallout series have given up. Fallout 3 won't happen, sorry guys. So keep fighting for the lost cause

 

[Roshambo]

Re: Lighten up

How many have played Final Fantasy games? Is it for the story? I don't think so. Each entry offered new play mechanics. The story was IDENTICAL throughout the entire series. That is the stance I take with Tactics

Too bad the game mechanics of the Final Fantasy games have been nearly identical, leading to it being nearly the same regurgitated shit over and over. That is, except for FF3-FF6, which do offer some interesting ways to develop your characters, but aside from that, they are over-hyped trash.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I will not dispute the fact that the BOS is very different in Tactics than in the other games.

I just think that the opening story bit explains why, telling you it is a different Brotherhood of Steel. Still one that cares for technology - you find out about the robots because you seek out the robotic parts in earlier missions.

They don't seek out the robot bits for the sake of preserving the technology. They seek it out for power.

All that changes is the view of outsiders. The BOS from the earlier games in California believed outsiders did not deserve the technology, nor could they handle it responsibly. They were right as well. However, the BOS in Tactics, an offshoot of the BOS we know and love (which is an offshoot because it disagreed with the original Brotherhood, hence the differences), see including some outsiders as a necessary evil.

This is a big point a lot of people miss. Say you and your friends were part of an organization, and you disagreed with the main members of that organization. So, they basically banish you to a location many, many, many miles away.

Would you keep the same name as the group that banished you?

Just sit back and think about that one for a few minutes.

Ghouls I have less of a problem with because they are still basically human, just very old and luminous, but the other races were pushing it too far, I feel.

Yeah, I can halfway accept ghouls.

I will again say, because I thought monosylabic response was unwarranted, that I liked your idea and I also liked the idea used. The implementation in the game wasn't great - poor infact, given that you had to buy weapons and medical care- but I still liked the game (you weren't supposed to love the BOS anyway - Barnaky's comments like "They must learn to obey our strict rules, and thus... be free" are amusing and are obviously designed to introduce the moral ambiguity into your actions - you are not a soldier for pure good, you fight for a human organisation with human goals, higher than most in the wastes but still human ones.

What gets me is the rank of General in the BOS. The only one I know of that was a "General" was the original Maxson who founded the BOS. After that, they were "Elders".

 

[Reaper]

What do you mean by the fallout universe because I am having trouble with your continual comments of 'it pissed all over the fallout setting' when the game was still based after a nuclear war, where the used huge underground 'Vaults' there are the different races (admittedly the Deathclaws shouldn't have been clever, in theory, do we know that Goris or another intelligent deathclaw didn't flee across the Sierras and reach the midwest, starting off their own intelligent brood)

Oh, yes, Rosh your point about me thinking 'I had fun, so it is good." is fair, just because I liked it doesn't automatically make it good. I said before that games are a matter of taste, Tactics suited my tastes. It is only my opinion that it was a good game. Whether I am right or not, does not effect my enjoyment of the game.

And it is an RPG, just a combat based one. I am playing Tactics now at the moment. (Well over the last few days) I enjoy the fighting and I enjoy the levelling up, improving my character using the Fallout SPECIAL system which I think is one of the best character systems around. THe RPG elements are extremely important - without them, this is just another squad combat game, with the system, you care about your characters.


Also, isn't it possible this game is technically a prequel, the Vaultdweller isn't mentioned, (I realise it could happen any time because there is no contact with the old Brotherhood and the West Coast.).

Oh, in answer to your question SP, I think the new Brotherhood would still keep their name. They loved the order, it is clear in the game - They still are a brotherhood, they still have a military -Steel, or with a different interpretation of the use of the word steel - they continue persue scientific advances and improved technology.

They are just another Brotherhood of Steel - they are the same, they only left because they knew that without fresh recruits, the Order would die out. They obviously don't like the outsiders, just listen to Barnaky but they know that new blood is a necessary evil They may be right, why were there no Brotherhood people in Fallout 2? I know the game was set, North of the old bunker from Fallout 1 (THat brings up the question, if they were so isolationist, why did they establish offices out in the big wide world?)

But seriously, so I can argue this point, or even agree with you, what do you mean by the 'Fallout Universe' and 'Canon'?

 

[Roshambo]

What do you mean by the fallout universe because I am having trouble with your continual comments of 'it pissed all over the fallout setting' when the game was still based after a nuclear war, where the used huge underground 'Vaults'

By your (stupid) thinking, "any game nuclear war, where the used huge underground 'Vaults'" = Fallout. Try looking a bit closer. Take a look at why the war was started and at the setting. By your other comments in this post, I'm fairly certain you're having trouble understanding what FOT's story and setting is, much less the Fallout story and setting is.

After this, I cannot possibly believe what I'm reading, as I cannot believe anyone could willing be that stupid in public.

there are the different races (admittedly the Deathclaws shouldn't have been clever, in theory, do we know that Goris or another intelligent deathclaw didn't flee across the Sierras and reach the midwest, starting off their own intelligent brood)

Terminally clueless. Seriously, did you bother seeing what was used to explain talking DeathClaws in FOT or did you just play the game on your default intelligence level of "Single-Celled"?

By the way, Goris was in Fo2, as were the rest of the Enclave-created intelligent DeathClaws.

When was FOT placed? Between Fallout 1 and 2.

So that means Goris came AFTER FOT.

Seriously, are you naturally this stupid or did you just woke up retarded the morning of the day you wrote that?

And it is an RPG, just a combat based one. I am playing Tactics now at the moment. (Well over the last few days) I enjoy the fighting and I enjoy the levelling up, improving my character using the Fallout SPECIAL system which I think is one of the best character systems around. THe RPG elements are extremely important - without them, this is just another squad combat game, with the system, you care about your characters.

Oooh! You level up! IT ARE RP!!G!!!R!!

Also, isn't it possible this game is technically a prequel, the Vaultdweller isn't mentioned, (I realise it could happen any time because there is no contact with the old Brotherhood and the West Coast.).

Now this just proves you're either trolling or you're as intelligent as a pile of bricks.

They are just another Brotherhood of Steel - they are the same, they only left because they knew that without fresh recruits, the Order would die out. They obviously don't like the outsiders, just listen to Barnaky but they know that new blood is a necessary evil

If you have been paying attention to the games (which I doublt you've played Fo1 and Fo2), and even in this thread, you might get the understanding that they were NOT the same.

So they are going to split off as a minority, have different ideals, but have the same name.

That really doesn't match up, even by your points.

They may be right, why were there no Brotherhood people in Fallout 2? I know the game was set, North of the old bunker from Fallout 1 (THat brings up the question, if they were so isolationist, why did they establish offices out in the big wide world?)

Try playing Fo2 sometime. Yes, there were Brotherhood there. There was also a reason why they weren't entirely seen, though how they did that was a little off.

But seriously, so I can argue this point, or even agree with you, what do you mean by the 'Fallout Universe' and 'Canon'?

Playing the games with your eyes open and intelligence > a rock.

 

[axelgreese]

But seriously, so I can argue this point, or even agree with you, what do you mean by the 'Fallout Universe' and 'Canon'?

Funniest thing I've read all week.

 

[Reaper]

You may think it is funny, I am getting pissed off by all this 'you're the stupidest person in the world' crap I've been hearing.

I did not know that Fallout Tactics was set between Fallot 1 and 2 (I have played both games and loved them) hence my mistake about the possible reasons for intelligent deathclaws.

There were a few Brotherhood people, the folks at the offices but no Paladins or elders (Tell me why this was, don't call me stupid) but this doesn't matter really to Tactics because it was apparently set after Fallout 1 but before Fallout 2. I have not yet completed Tactics, when does it decribe the timing?

What the fuck is wrong with my comments about the RPG elements in Tactics, I was responding to your comment that I had stopped just short of saying it's not supposed to be and RPG - what do you want from a tactical combat game with RPG elements?

Why did the war start? According to the logs in teh Sierra base it was because of the oil shortage and the dispute over the Oil stockpile underwater. Why should that have any baring on the Fallout world. All that stuff is acnient history and doesn't matter in teh wastes.

Okay the game wasn't about the Vaultdweller but that had been done - that was the backstory and it was a finished back story

What should Fallout Tactics have been about to keep linked to the 'setting and backstory'?

Please answer my questions and refrain from pointlessly insulting me. It really seems unecessary and childish. I disagree with you so you call me names. Great.

 

[Reaper]

Oh yes, sorry about the double posting. I know the BOS was different in Tactics but the difference were not massive and their organisational structure seemed similar - this is why they did not need to change their name ( they would have still thought of themselves as Brotherhood of Steel people.)

If I am so wrong, explain how different they are.

 

[axelgreese]

You may think it is funny, I am getting pissed off by all this 'you're the stupidest person in the world' crap I've been hearing.

<3

 

[Roshambo]

You may think it is funny, I am getting pissed off by all this 'you're the stupidest person in the world' crap I've been hearing.

Hopefully it might spark you into using your head for once instead of raping your keyboard again. It's extremely sad to see someone abuse such a device with innumerate potentials in such a manner.

Kind of like raising a kitten on nothing but love and kindness, then watching as the new owner throws it out into the street.

I did not know that Fallout Tactics was set between Fallot 1 and 2 (I have played both games and loved them) hence my mistake about the possible reasons for intelligent deathclaws.

It's because you're essentially shooting off your mouth without a clue. You know, most intelligent people make sure they have at least most of the facts before they go into a debate and hope to have any chance of relevence.

There were a few Brotherhood people, the folks at the offices but no Paladins or elders (Tell me why this was, don't call me stupid) but this doesn't matter really to Tactics because it was apparently set after Fallout 1 but before Fallout 2. I have not yet completed Tactics, when does it decribe the timing?

You missed the intro, did you?

What the fuck is wrong with my comments about the RPG elements in Tactics, I was responding to your comment that I had stopped just short of saying it's not supposed to be and RPG - what do you want from a tactical combat game with RPG elements?

You obviously need help in reading as well as thinking. Go back to the initial reply about how you were trying to excuse FOT's setting design as being how it is because it wasn't Fo1 or Fo2. You were excusing the changes as it being of a different genre, when it fact the genre has no relevence to the setting.

Why did the war start? According to the logs in teh Sierra base it was because of the oil shortage and the dispute over the Oil stockpile underwater. Why should that have any baring on the Fallout world. All that stuff is acnient history and doesn't matter in teh wastes.

Holy shit. I just heard your English teachers kill themselves out of shame.

I also think I heard your parents wish there was some form of post-natal abortion plan in their health care.

To put it simply, you've just set yourself up to be the biggest moron to have ever defended Fallout Tactics. It's obvious that the point of the setting has passed you by completely, or for that matter, the reason for a setting and backstory in a game.

Okay the game wasn't about the Vaultdweller but that had been done - that was the backstory and it was a finished back story

No, you fumbling simpleton, a backstory is the fucking narrative.

The Vault Dweller's actions, including the Master, are entirely relevent.

You know...something like the "splintered BoS" chasing The remains of The Master's army? There was only one Master in the Fallout setting, that in Fo1. Now, it wasn't until Fo1 that the BOS knew about the Master and his army, and upon the destruction of The Master, there would be something called "remains of his army". Now, dipshit, can you piece together when FOT would take place? Certainly not before Fo1 at all, and how you could even think that is (like most of your idiocy), beyond my comprehension of how even genetics could come up with a defective product such as yourself. After Fo2 would be a bit trying, given the BoS's different direction there around their home base.

What should Fallout Tactics have been about to keep linked to the 'setting and backstory'?

It should be obvious, but then again, I'm not surprised when you're trying to piece it together.

Oh yes, sorry about the double posting. I know the BOS was different in Tactics but the difference were not massive and their organisational structure seemed similar - this is why they did not need to change their name ( they would have still thought of themselves as Brotherhood of Steel people.)

If I am so wrong, explain how different they are.

That's the problem. It's been explained to you before.

Please answer my questions and refrain from pointlessly insulting me. It really seems unecessary and childish. I disagree with you so you call me names. Great.

No, you're presenting yourself as a hopelessly clueless idiot. That's why I call you such.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

What do you mean by the fallout universe because I am having trouble with your continual comments of 'it pissed all over the fallout setting' when the game was still based after a nuclear war, where the used huge underground 'Vaults' there are the different races (admittedly the Deathclaws shouldn't have been clever, in theory, do we know that Goris or another intelligent deathclaw didn't flee across the Sierras and reach the midwest, starting off their own intelligent brood)

Which was filled with shit jokes, anime sci-fi looking robots as opposed to a more 1950s pulp sci-fi style, totally missed out on the fact the Great War started because there was no oil - yet the supermutants lived in an oil refinery which still had gas and you were driving around in gas powered vehicles, the BOS that could fly when Matt in FO2 said they couldn't, the talking deathclaws which were talking forty years before Enclave experiements created talking deathclaws, mostly real world firearms despite the ones seen in Fallout, the nuclear missile warheads even though the nukes in Fallout were bomber based, etc.

And it is an RPG, just a combat based one. I am playing Tactics now at the moment. (Well over the last few days) I enjoy the fighting and I enjoy the levelling up, improving my character using the Fallout SPECIAL system which I think is one of the best character systems around. THe RPG elements are extremely important - without them, this is just another squad combat game, with the system, you care about your characters.

Well, if it's a CRPG, it's a dungeon crawler. The line between dungeon crawlers and tactical CRPGs is pretty thin.

Also, isn't it possible this game is technically a prequel, the Vaultdweller isn't mentioned, (I realise it could happen any time because there is no contact with the old Brotherhood and the West Coast.).

The supermutants should tip you off it's after Fallout since that's when they started popping up.

Oh, in answer to your question SP, I think the new Brotherhood would still keep their name. They loved the order, it is clear in the game - They still are a brotherhood, they still have a military -Steel, or with a different interpretation of the use of the word steel - they continue persue scientific advances and improved technology.

Loving order is one thing, loving an institution that banishes you in a fool's errand which strands you close to a thousand miles away is other. Most importantly, though, an institution you don't even share the same ideology as. In fact, you have an opposite ideology as them.

 

[Reaper]

Okay, I will take your point about the timing of the game - between FAllout 1 and 2. Chasing the master's army does give an indication. I missed that.

THe place where we diverge appears to be, that I don't care that the robots looked different and that the cars sounded like gas driven vehicles. It boils down to the fact that you take the little details far more seriously than I do. That is fine.

All you are going to do now is tell me I shouldn't post about this game if I don't care about the setting.

Some details are there from the old games - ghouls, mutants, a modified BOS(I know they were different but the bunkers were there, the paladins were there, the big guns were there, it felt similar), power-armour, rotgut, raiders with slaver tendencies, books that increase skill (guns and ammo), deathclaw enemies (having them on your side was a crap idea), occasionally amusing dialogue (could have been better because it was Fallout but because the emphasis was on combat, I didn't mind), they kept quite a few of the old guns - vindicator, laser rifle, plasma, rifle, hunting rifle, H&K CAWS, laser pistol, plasma pistol, (they needed to add in new weapons because it was a combat game first and needed a wider variety of weapons than the earlier Fallout games offered.

I think it is more about the game atmosphere and the things you see around your characters while playing, the things you pick up in your inventory that make it seem Fallout - iguana on a stick, fruit, all those nice little touches are far more important to the Fallout feeling than the fact that Deathclaws could talk or that the BOS didn't hate outsiders with a vengeance (Anyway, its not like they're just opening th gates to everyone in Tactics, there is the matter of the 85% attrition rate on the training. They only take the best the wastes have offer.)

But really, it should be about whether you liked the story, not whether it fit with your holy canon. I know they changed the BOS and that it could have made sense to rename the organisation but I expect the designer thought it would be nice to let the player actually do something for the BOS rather than join them and not feel like part of the Brotherhood like in Fallout 1. I didn't let a few discrepancies ruin a good Tactical combat game which used my favourite character system.