How good is Fallout Tactics' story?

[Brother None]

And did ANYONE in the previous Fallout games heal your characters?

*whistles* Oh, well, I dunno...Lenny? The doc in Redding? The surgeon in the BoS base in Fallout 1?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Isolationist, as well as hateful and distrusting of the outside world. The expansionist idea is the only change. And to be honest we DID see the occasional reference to "maybe the Elders are wrong" about the idea of admitting new members to the Brotherhood back in FO.

No, the BOS weren't hateful of the outside world. They believed they could make the world a better place through the slow introduction of technology. To them, the world just wasn't ready for everything they had to offer.

Which is a huge leap from how they were in Fallout Tactics, where everything under the sun was allowed to sign up and be a member. The only reason you couldn't have radscorpions as squad members is most likely they didn't have the time to code that in.

Furthermore, the BOS in Fallout and Fallout 2 weren't about owning the most territory, wiping out raiders, or dealing with petty nuissenses to the wasteland. The only reason they got involved with the mutant threat was because they had no choice about it if they wanted to survive. That's a hell of a lot different from the BOS in Fallout Tactics where they meddle in everything!

Also remember that the idea of isolationism doesn't jive with the fact that the war starts because China invades Alaska, we annex Canada, we battle amongst to China's capital... this is isolationist how? It's not.

China invaded America. Isolationist or not, you don't simple roll over and give in to occupation. That's France's job.

And I hate to tell you this Ro, but the whole thing about making troops pay for their own equipment? Uh, that's been done before. Many, MANY times before in fact. I'm also not refering to "rabble" armies, I mean standing professional armies. We find it unreasonable because we're used to an Armed Forces that supplies everything up to and including goddamn bubble gum in its rations. That's only been the norm relatively recently, with massive industrial strength making it possible. What's an "army" going to do when it's reduced to scavenging?

No, we find it unreasonable because it's stupid. The BOS is scavenging? What are they scavenging? They can make huge bunkers seemingly overnight! They can get working vehicles in an order of magnitude such that every squad can have more vehicles than squadmembers! They can invent new and better power armor than seen in Fallout and Fallout 2!

All of that was in Fallout Tactics, yet you still have to buy bullets from them!

You could make a case that they used the money you bought to buy equipment from locals.. But then again, the BOS is printing their own money, which would be fairly useless to local towns. That why they were using pull tops as currency.

 

[Roshambo]

And did ANYONE in the previous Fallout games heal your characters?

Yes, quite a few did. I guess you might want to play them sometime.

Hell, why would the doctor in this game really need to offer services anyway? He/She is a good source for material, and since you automatically heal anyway the idea of, "Well, I've given you your shot, you're now instantly at full health!" would just be idiotic and redundant.

So much for making sure your troops are good before they go out into the field, especially when they don't have a medic on hand or one that has the ability to cure those conditions.

And I hate to tell you this Ro, but the whole thing about making troops pay for their own equipment? Uh, that's been done before. Many, MANY times before in fact. I'm also not refering to "rabble" armies, I mean standing professional armies. We find it unreasonable because we're used to an Armed Forces that supplies everything up to and including goddamn bubble gum in its rations. That's only been the norm relatively recently, with massive industrial strength making it possible. What's an "army" going to do when it's reduced to scavenging?

This was already nicely answered, unfortunately.

Yet, I do find how it is funny how you'll use that in a defense where your squad is the end-all for the BoS there, how you're going to save the world, and they'll still require you to pay.

 

[I/O Error]

No, the BOS weren't hateful of the outside world. They believed they could make the world a better place through the slow introduction of technology. To them, the world just wasn't ready for everything they had to offer.

Which is a huge leap from how they were in Fallout Tactics, where everything under the sun was allowed to sign up and be a member. The only reason you couldn't have radscorpions as squad members is most likely they didn't have the time to code that in.

It is a huge leap, because the Brotherhood's previous stance of "no outsiders allowed" indicated a bunker mentality. I claim the Brotherhood didn't really feel the outside world wasn't ready for technology, they were just afraid of outside influence. I mean come on, who made most of the military hardware in Fallout? Vendors told you it came from the Brotherhood. If they really wanted to help people by slowly introducing technology, and not in fact just hiding from the outside world, they sure as hell wouldn't be selling ammunition and weapons to anybody who held out their hands and waved a little money.

Furthermore, the BOS in Fallout and Fallout 2 weren't about owning the most territory, wiping out raiders, or dealing with petty nuissenses to the wasteland. The only reason they got involved with the mutant threat was because they had no choice about it if they wanted to survive. That's a hell of a lot different from the BOS in Fallout Tactics where they meddle in everything!

Yes, it is different, very much so. But I claim the change in attitude is not inconsistent with the doubts and uncertainties we heard about in Fallout. We know there were members unhappy with the Elder's plan for Brotherhood interaction with the outside world. In fact, the deterioration of the Brotherhood in Fallout 2 also confirms that their plan was not working. It's not at all unreasonable to assume a splinter group would see that degredation and want to change the policy.

China invaded America. Isolationist or not, you don't simple roll over and give in to occupation. That's France's job.

Agreed. But annexing Canada is a BIG stretch from that standpoint, heh.

No, we find it unreasonable because it's stupid. The BOS is scavenging? What are they scavenging? They can make huge bunkers seemingly overnight!

The cutscenes indicated that the bunkers were not built by the Brotherhood, they were simply reactivated bunkers from before the war. Also the mission to recover the stolen power armor seemed to indicate pretty clearly that it was beyond the BOS's ability to engineer new suits, they were only able to repair existing ones.

They can get working vehicles in an order of magnitude such that every squad can have more vehicles than squadmembers! They can invent new and better power armor than seen in Fallout and Fallout 2!

The brotherhood provided the APC (a primitive box on tracks), the humvee (damn things are just about unbreakable anyway, surely some would survive to be found in depots or motor pools?) the scouter (see Humvee description) and the Nuke APC (a glorified truck with a nuke strapped to it.) The other two vehicles were scavenged by the player. Hell, the only vehicle that was really impressive in terms of tech and required skill was the tank, and that wasn't the BOS's doing. There is also the argument that only your squad was provided that level of mechanical support, seeing as you had "top priority"

All of that was in Fallout Tactics, yet you still have to buy bullets from them!

You could make a case that they used the money you bought to buy equipment from locals.. But then again, the BOS is printing their own money, which would be fairly useless to local towns. That why they were using pull tops as currency.

Actually that brings up another theory. The concept of barter wouldn't be that twisted. "Ya want ammo sonny? Gotta work for it! Bring me in some equipment and THEN we can talk about getting you what you need. Work with me kid!" And if there's one thing I never ran short of, it was money in either forms. If I want that shiny new advanced power armor I trade in a few machine guns.

 

[I/O Error]

And did ANYONE in the previous Fallout games heal your characters?

*whistles* Oh, well, I dunno...Lenny? The doc in Redding? The surgeon in the BoS base in Fallout 1?

Yup, got me there. I'd allowed myself to forget that. (Suddenly remembered that damned quack in the Vault City courtyard, argh... lol)

 

[Jacen]

Also remember that the idea of isolationism doesn't jive with the fact that the war starts because China invades Alaska, we annex Canada, we battle amongst to China's capital... this is isolationist how? It's not.

But the BOS and the American Army aren't the same thing, so I don't get the point.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

It is a huge leap, because the Brotherhood's previous stance of "no outsiders allowed" indicated a bunker mentality. I claim the Brotherhood didn't really feel the outside world wasn't ready for technology, they were just afraid of outside influence.

They weren't afraid, they had nothing to fear from those people.

I mean come on, who made most of the military hardware in Fallout? Vendors told you it came from the Brotherhood. If they really wanted to help people by slowly introducing technology, and not in fact just hiding from the outside world, they sure as hell wouldn't be selling ammunition and weapons to anybody who held out their hands and waved a little money.

You're forgetting about the Gunrunners, who also made weapons and sold them.

Furthermore, your backing that reason up with a false assertion that the BOS were somehow afraid of the rest of the world. They weren't. They're harbingers of technology.

Yes, it is different, very much so. But I claim the change in attitude is not inconsistent with the doubts and uncertainties we heard about in Fallout. We know there were members unhappy with the Elder's plan for Brotherhood interaction with the outside world. In fact, the deterioration of the Brotherhood in Fallout 2 also confirms that their plan was not working. It's not at all unreasonable to assume a splinter group would see that degredation and want to change the policy.

Matt says the Elders of the BOS got complacent because they thought they were the only ones with pre-Great War level technology. That's not the same thing, now is it?

Agreed. But annexing Canada is a BIG stretch from that standpoint, heh.

If you need the resources to fight off an invader, you'll annex a neighbor that has them. We know that Europe was also falling apart, and the United States did nothing about it. That's because they were isolationist, just like America was preWW2.

In case you missed it, the Great War was modelled after WW2 in many respects, which is also on par with the 1950s setting of the game. The United States got involved in WW2, but only because we were attacked by a member of the Axis.

The cutscenes indicated that the bunkers were not built by the Brotherhood, they were simply reactivated bunkers from before the war.

Even reactivating a 120 year old bunker quickly is a huge feat, especially when you want to claim the BOS were poor scavengers.

Also the mission to recover the stolen power armor seemed to indicate pretty clearly that it was beyond the BOS's ability to engineer new suits, they were only able to repair existing ones.

Check that mission briefing again. You had to recover that PA because the BOS didn't want just anyone having their PA.

The brotherhood provided the APC (a primitive box on tracks), the humvee (damn things are just about unbreakable anyway, surely some would survive to be found in depots or motor pools?) the scouter (see Humvee description) and the Nuke APC (a glorified truck with a nuke strapped to it.) The other two vehicles were scavenged by the player. Hell, the only vehicle that was really impressive in terms of tech and required skill was the tank, and that wasn't the BOS's doing. There is also the argument that only your squad was provided that level of mechanical support, seeing as you had "top priority"

How does this change anything? If the BOS were poor scavengers, then they wouldn't just allow the squad to have that many vehicles, would they? Think about it.

Actually that brings up another theory. The concept of barter wouldn't be that twisted. "Ya want ammo sonny? Gotta work for it! Bring me in some equipment and THEN we can talk about getting you what you need. Work with me kid!" And if there's one thing I never ran short of, it was money in either forms. If I want that shiny new advanced power armor I trade in a few machine guns.

You'd think saving the ass of their paladins in St. Louis would warrent free stuff.

 

[APTYP]

Heh. So what if your squad is going to a rescue operation and has no equipment or money, you will have to go to battle naked and unarmed even though there are more than enough grenades and assault rifles in the armory?

No wonder the REAL Brotherhood of Steel kicked these morons out...

 

[Roshambo]

Well said!

 

[Jinxed]

You should be issued with standard equipment and allowed to trade in crap for some extra granades, clips and so forth. With the explanation of "trying times".

 

[axelgreese]

You should be issued with standard equipment and allowed to trade in crap for some extra granades, clips and so forth. With the explanation of "trying times".

You should be allowed the option to press a button and make Fallout: Tactics something that never happened

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

You should be issued with standard equipment and allowed to trade in crap for some extra granades, clips and so forth. With the explanation of "trying times".

This is actually one reason why I've said that your squad should have been the sole survivors of the blimp wrecks. Think about all the problems with Fallout Tactics that would have eliminated.

 

[MidSizedJesusMordino]

As far as story goes, it...wasn't good (for the reasons people have mentioned better than I could). However, on a tactical game level, I enjoyed playing it. I'd take Fallout 1/2 over it anyday, though.

 

[Reaper]

I loved the opening story in Fallout Tactics. The idea of the expansionist faction inside the brotherhood of steel being sent away by the isolationists and actually getting to create their own Brotherhood based on their own vision.

This accounts for the different attictude of the BOS from the previous games and makes it playable and interesting (a game about a bunch of soldiers sitting in bunker muttering about how glad they are that outsiders are not allowed in would make a terrible tactical combat game)

I quite liked the build up over the early levels where you are only just beginning to find out about the looming threat and the idea of mutants being scared away by the threat was really good and the scope of the threat was good (mutant migration forcing raider migration = chaos) but when you met the robots I enjoyed the game a lot less.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I loved the opening story in Fallout Tactics. The idea of the expansionist faction inside the brotherhood of steel being sent away by the isolationists and actually getting to create their own Brotherhood based on their own vision.

Hmm funny but General Barnaky seems to be totally opposed to the beliefs of the splinter group he is running, bit odd that, would of thought he would of stayed behind.

This accounts for the different attictude of the BOS from the previous games and makes it playable and interesting (a game about a bunch of soldiers sitting in bunker muttering about how glad they are that outsiders are not allowed in would make a terrible tactical combat game)

They could of easily come up with a new organisation, local to Chicago, instead of the Brotherhood. To me from playing Fallout, the Brotherhood aren't very military, they have far more in common with the monks of St Liebowitz (with a dash of the Knights Templar) than the US Military. Just take a look at the town map for the Brotherhood bunker, or their titles, Paladin, Scribe, Elder, Knight.

I quite liked the build up over the early levels where you are only just beginning to find out about the looming threat and the idea of mutants being scared away by the threat was really good and the scope of the threat was good (mutant migration forcing raider migration = chaos) but when you met the robots I enjoyed the game a lot less.

The best levels were the one's in the SP demo, much more fun than many that made it into the main campaign. But the story never really got going, just as they started to try and build interest in what was happening, you'd move on to the next bunker and the next threat.

 

[nWo]

hey how come i see non of you at tactics online don'r you guys play the game. besides how many times you going to run through a story anyways.

Stop on by i wouldn't mind shooting a few of ya. 8)
Just ask for nWo i like to play.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I loved the opening story in Fallout Tactics. The idea of the expansionist faction inside the brotherhood of steel being sent away by the isolationists and actually getting to create their own Brotherhood based on their own vision.

This accounts for the different attictude of the BOS from the previous games and makes it playable and interesting (a game about a bunch of soldiers sitting in bunker muttering about how glad they are that outsiders are not allowed in would make a terrible tactical combat game)

Actually, they wouldn't have had to have done that whole isolationist/expansionist load of crap if they'd just gone with the solo squad idea.

Say a contingent of the paladins, knights, and scribes were sent out in to the wasteland on the trail of the retreating mutant army in typical canon Fallout caravan style. After many days of following them, the mutant army attacked them in the night, an ambush. Three survivors were found by another caravan who took them to some town they were headed to trade with.

There, now you have an isolated fragment of a squad, something that fits within Fallout canon, makes sense, and offers more open ended game play including allowing the players to decide for themselves what the ideology of their group is.

That beat the hell out of flying machines, which the BOS never had. It beats the hell out of a nazi-esque, work camping running, slaver, genocidal faction baring the name "Brotherhood of Steel" which has absolutely nothing to do with the Brotherhood of Steel.

I quite liked the build up over the early levels where you are only just beginning to find out about the looming threat and the idea of mutants being scared away by the threat was really good and the scope of the threat was good (mutant migration forcing raider migration = chaos) but when you met the robots I enjoyed the game a lot less.

After the mutant missions for me. I thought the Reavers were rather ass too.

 

[AaronHardy]

i know that by saying this i will probably be lynched but i loved FOT it took my two favourit game play types (RPG ang Squad Lvl stratergy) and compined them with my favourit game universe i had no problems with the story (although as a australian i am biast towards the fact that if was made buy a australian company) i still give it a big australian thumbs up

 

[Reaper]

I agree with AaronHardy. I liked the combination of the Fallout RPG style with tactical combat.

I take your point Saint, about how a lone squad idea would have avoided the need for the opening isolationist vs expansionist story but i still liked it and that was why I wrote the post. This thread was called 'how good was the Tactics story?' and that was my answer.

I liked the story and I liked the game.

I admit the BOS is different than in Fallout 1 and as it is almost non-existant in Fallout 2, it is not a huge betrayal considering how limited the BOS was in the earlier games.

Anyway, Fallout tactics was not marketted as Fallout 3, it was marketted a tactical combat game using Fallout's excellent post-nulear war setting. I loved that because post-nuclear war settings are of great interest to me. I read the Survivalist series, the Deathlands series and the Phoenix series even though the last one is a tad crap.

Also the BOS was military, not the US army by any means but they had ranks like knight and paladin = armoured warrior and palace guard (those are the basic translations). There was a clever feeling of an old Order like the Knights Templar but they also had a very distinct military side.

In Fallout 1 you can become an initiate in the Brotherhood and your reward is weaponry - you become a military member of their military wing (Brotherhood of steel does suggest violence is an important part of their lifestyle. So you cannot argue that they were not the army like the one presented in Tactics, they were but they believed in preserving their technology for a select few they deemed necessary.

THe 'expansionists' believed the BOS would ide without new blood which is why the advocated spreading their wings and including outsiders - doesn't mean they loved tribals, which is why Barnaky isn't wild about the primitives. Humans don't like ghouls and that explains why BOS members, no matter how into the sharing the technology idea, were shaken when ghouls get admitted into the brotherhood.

I would have liked to play a game based on the idea you suggested, Saint. The lone squad of BOS troops appeals but I also liked the idea used in the game, a fledgling military organisation trying to bring some order back to the wastes.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I take your point Saint, about how a lone squad idea would have avoided the need for the opening isolationist vs expansionist story but i still liked it and that was why I wrote the post. This thread was called 'how good was the Tactics story?' and that was my answer.

My answer is that it wasn't good at all and I could come up with a significantly better idea off the top of my head.

I liked the story and I liked the game.

I didn't. I was expecting a cross between JA2 and Fallout, which would have been great, and got a buggy, budget title for full price instead. One where tactics didn't play much part in it, and were the Fallout setting was horribly corrupted by people who seemed to want to make a Mad Max game instead of a Fallout one.

I admit the BOS is different than in Fallout 1 and as it is almost non-existant in Fallout 2, it is not a huge betrayal considering how limited the BOS was in the earlier games.

Perhaps you should try playing Fallout and Fallout 2 again. The BOS in those games never took over towns or enslaved people for work camps. The BOS were all well outfitted as well, and didn't enlist just anyone in to their ranks.

Anyway, Fallout tactics was not marketted as Fallout 3, it was marketted a tactical combat game using Fallout's excellent post-nulear war setting.

In which it failed miserably.

Also the BOS was military, not the US army by any means but they had ranks like knight and paladin = armoured warrior and palace guard (those are the basic translations). There was a clever feeling of an old Order like the Knights Templar but they also had a very distinct military side.

They came from the US Army, but they weren't military. They were researchers of and harbingers of technology. Scribe, Knight, and Paladin weren't ranks, they were more like castes. You have the science caste, the defense caste, and the warrior caste. The warrior caste, the Paladins, were a very small group of the over all bunch of BOS group.

Also, keep in mind that the BOS were soldiers in Mariposa, a research center, before they broke off from the military. While they have a military background, it's also a technical one as well.

In Fallout 1 you can become an initiate in the Brotherhood and your reward is weaponry - you become a military member of their military wing (Brotherhood of steel does suggest violence is an important part of their lifestyle. So you cannot argue that they were not the army like the one presented in Tactics, they were but they believed in preserving their technology for a select few they deemed necessary.

Steel is a technology, actually.

Sure, they reward you with weapons and armor, but they also offer you medical procedures that can improve your attributes like Charisma and Intelligence as well. There is also the reward of information about the BOS too, if you take the time to talk to the people in Lost Hills.

THe 'expansionists' believed the BOS would ide without new blood which is why the advocated spreading their wings and including outsiders - doesn't mean they loved tribals, which is why Barnaky isn't wild about the primitives. Humans don't like ghouls and that explains why BOS members, no matter how into the sharing the technology idea, were shaken when ghouls get admitted into the brotherhood.

All of the above is bad writing. The only reason ghouls, deathclaws, robots, and everything else was allowed in the "BOS" in Fallout Tactics is because one of the designers thought, Wouldn't it be kewl if you could have deathclawz as squad mates? and really had no basis in the BOS lore at all.

Hell, they even ignored the fact that deathclaws weren't intelligent until Fallout 2, when the Enclave made a group of intelligent ones - just to have deathclaw squadmembers.

I would have liked to play a game based on the idea you suggested, Saint. The lone squad of BOS troops appeals but I also liked the idea used in the game, a fledgling military organisation trying to bring some order back to the wastes.

Uhhh.. Yeah.