How to Build on Fallout 3

[Endless Void]

I think the issue with the immersion in video games lies in the basic misunderstanding of a requirement for realistic visuals. Of course the visual immersion in recent games like Fallout 3, Mass Effect, etc. may create the feeling of being sucked into the gameworld. However, the main problem the developers tend to miss in this issue is that the more "realism" they try to achieve more disbelief it creates on the gamer. There was an article I read once about robotics theories (unfortunately, I haven't been able to find it again) that stated more human-like a robot looks, the more its flaws as a human will be emphasized. The "lack of immersion" in the recent eye-candy games springs from this problem. Developers try to stimulate the gamers visually into the belief of the gameworld's existence. However, the gameworld itself is nothing more than a game board polished to look "real" so to speak. I experienced this problem while playing through Mass Effect. No matter how realistic the gameworld looks like Commander Shephard cannot jump, for instance. This seems like a pointless rant about a meaningless issue but in fact it points out that no matter how much the technology had developed over the years the gameworld is still nothing but a game board as it was in the first Fallouts, hell even the ages old Gold Box RPGs where the maps were equally the same squarexsquare size. However, those older games were able to nail that "immersion" while the aesthatically pleasing recent games completely fail to do so. Even the plot and gameworld-wise greatly polished Mask of the Betrayer failed to do so, well at least for me. Upon thinking about it for some time I came to realize that the difference is as somebody else pointed out in this article is the issue of abstraction. I was "immersed" extremely into the world of the first two Fallouts but not in the sense that I was the character I'm controlling in that universe. It's "immersion" as in being immersed in a book where the words trigger and guide your imagination into building that world within your mind but instead of words this time you have "representative visuals" just like the ones you'll find in a board game. The issue with the recent games in this aspect is that they try to deliver you every single detail of this "representative visuals" that you no longer need to engage in the "imagining" process. Therefore, while trying to immerse you deeper into the game all they accomplish is to abstract you further and further away from the game that you no longer get the feeling you're inside the game but the game keeps on reminding you that you're the guy sitting by the computer screen for hours and being spoon-fed everything the game itself throws at you without engaging in a thought/imagination provoking process; hence accomplishing nothing.

 

[Arr0nax]

The whole point of turn based combat with eagle-eye perspective is abstraction, and abstraction(to pull out) is polar opposite of immersion(to sink inside/ under the surface). The point of turn based combat with eagle-eye perspective is to take you away from the action, from the reality of your character and let you toy and enjoy the godlike tactical fun.

I have to call bullshit on you too.
Top-down view doesn't pull you out of the scene : you are still part of it, just with a different point of view. It doesn't mean at all that you as a player will feel less immersed in the scene. You're just at another location.
Try playing Jagged Alliance 2 to see what I mean. You're immersed in the combats as a spectator instead of as an actor, but it's still damn immersive.

I think the issue with the immersion in video games lies in the basic misunderstanding of a requirement for realistic visuals.

True that.
Again, to me JA2 feels as much immersive as any crappy photo-realistic shooter.

 

[Santoka]

I have to call bullshit on you too.
Top-down view doesn't pull you out of the scene : you are still part of it, just with a different point of view. It doesn't mean at all that you as a player will feel less immersed in the scene. You're just at another location.
Try playing Jagged Alliance 2 to see what I mean. You're immersed in the combats as a spectator instead of as an actor, but it's still damn immersive.

Just finish reading before calling BS.
That's why I distinguished immersion in the world the game is trying to represent from immersion in the gameplay experience the game is trying to create ; I just believe the second is a different kind of immersion, and should be called something else, absorption or addiction, or just good game design. I never argued games with Top down view had no immersion, they just pull on other strings, since the use of top down view is clearly aimed at abstraction and global grasp of the big picture, while FPP is a powerful & straightforward "immersion in the represented world" string.
I would add that the first type of immersion is exclusive, only a few games aim and succeed at it, while the second is universal, all games aim at it, but only a few succeed. Just take Chess as a raw example.
You're reacting ad if I was trying to bash your favorite games and acting as if the qualities of your favorite games were better and in place of the qualities they lack. And your favorite games are also my favorite games, I love JA2, so don't assume to much.

 

[fedaykin]

Sorry, but the neat division you make between the two seems very artificial, even though it seems plausible at first glance. How do you draw the line? Do you believe people feel differently when they play JA2 than when they play [insert Santoka's favorite truly immersive game here]?

 

[UncannyGarlic]

That has absolutely NOTHING to do with the combat system or the view. It's a feeling of vulnerability, and as you wrote, you can also get it from STALKER... I never stated immersion was absent from any top down game. Nor did I state you couldn't get different feelings from them. I merely state that Turn based combat + Top down view are not immersion tools, they're higher abstraction tools.

You seem to be saying that immersion and abstraction are in conflict and that by increasing one, you decrease the other. I'm going to call bs on that, books are probably the most "immersive" media and they are as abstract as possible, relying entirely on words to convey everything: images, sound, feelings, ect.. The reason that it's such an immersive media is because of it's abstraction, it makes the reader interpret the words and sentences, thus seeing, feeling, and hearing the things most natural to them. Fallout 1&2 combined fairly abstracted graphical representation (ie models were generally generic) with text descriptions, using language to convey messages which really can't be conveyed through graphics.

I'm not arguing that you can't combine highly detailed graphics with text descriptions (I've yet to really see it done), just that sometimes less graphic detail might allow for greater detail, when used properly (though as I said, it's never been tested so who knows). You also seem to ignore how highly abstracted FPP games are, think of how often character models are reused in FPSs, how many times do you shoot an identical super mutant in FO3 or the same combine soldier in HL2?

The level of abstraction really isn't so different in a birds eye game than in a FPP or over-the-shoulder camera game, perspective is the main difference. I would also say that FPP/OTS games tend to put a bigger emphasis on "drawing" the game world so that it looks more "right" to the player than most top down games, but I see no reason for it too be a rule. For example, I'd say that Fallout did a better job making the world look "right" than many FPP games of the time.

I fail to see the contradiction ! It just gripped you in another way. Doesn't prevent FPP from being a major immersion factor.

You keep throwing this word around so lets hear a definition of what an immersion factor is? What makes something an immersion factor? What are other immersion factors?

Use of perspective IS craftsmanship of the author. Just look at the good breakthroughs in horror cinema, subjective camera, Sam Raimi's floating camera etc... When done correctly, the good use of the good perspective gives results no other craft could.

Yet the vast majority of film footage is from the third person, with the occassional first person narration by a person or character on-screen. Also, film is a static media, particularly scripted movies whereas games are, for the most part, dynamic, adding an extra level of needed functionality that further increases the difficulty of artistic camera direction. The very dynamic nature of games, specifically player input, adds a type of interactive immersion not present in film and only lightly present in choose your own adventure books.

 

[Morbus]

Sorry, but the neat division you make between the two seems very artificial, even though it seems plausible at first glance. How do you draw the line? Do you believe people feel differently when they play JA2 than when they play [insert Santoka's favorite truly immersive game here]?

There's a freaking screen in front of you! You are inside your house, sitting in a couch or chair!

There's technology all around and whatnot!

What kind of game could ever be immersive with these limitations?

There is no immersiveness, there's only graphical and sound fidelity.

 

[Arr0nax]

That's why I distinguished immersion in the world the game is trying to represent from immersion in the gameplay experience the game is trying to create ;

I understand the distinction you're trying to make, I just don't agree with you that top-down view doesn't provide the first type of immersion.

When I play JA2, Fallout 2 or Planescape Torment, I feel like I'm inside the world I'm playing in because the sounds and graphics suck me inside the scene. I think what you may be refering to is immersion in the subjectivity of a character, but that's not necessary to feel like you're into a real coherent world/scene.

 

[UniversalWolf]

I would say FPP is inherently non-immersive. As an example, I've been playing the Penumbra series lately; they're really quite good games, but the FPP constantly breaks the immersion because the character whose perspective you're assuming apparently has no neck and no peripheral vision. Third-person (like, say, VtM:B, which I played until a few weeks ago) would've been a much better choice.