Niner1209
First time out of the vault
Honestly it's all of the slaving, I HATE that. I don't particularly side with NCR (on my last playthrough went for an independent vegas) but Ceasars Legion are just ugh...
I'd support Ceasars Legion except [Insert answer here]
- Thread starter Felspawn
- Start date
First time out of the vault
EnclaveKnight
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Honestly, I just hate the roman stupidity.
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
I wish their armor would be more like theone in Caesar's new Regime mod or at least made out of animal pelts instead of football equipment. But well, that's what mods are for.
EnclaveKnight
It Wandered In From the Wastes
I just think that there is no place for crazies cosplaying roman soldiers.
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
There was for Mongol themed raiders and neo-neo-nazis in Bird looking armors.
Warhawk
Post-Apocalyptic Pilot
Let's see. I'd support Caesar's Legion except:
- It's still not Rome. I'd support it if it had a functioning society behind it. Don't give me that "thesis and antithesis" crap: Own up and build it or get out of Dodge.
- The slavery theme is excessive and trite. They had the opportunity to take Roman virtues at face value and make slavery a gray-area with well-treated and even 'willing' slaves. Instead they farm women and children from foreign lands and push slaves around, ordering them to carry outlandishly huge rucksacks while barefoot in the Nevada sand.
- Their tactics aren't there. Sure you have the "divide and conquer" meta stuff but in the end the whole game is about those damned Frumentarii. You don't see battle ranks, no pilum-tossing first lines, nothing. "Well disciplined" equates to attacking in random gaggles? They could have at least described it otherwise in lore if the game was that limited, but they didn't even do that.
- Shunning technology. To cherrypick Caesar's on words: that is the 'antithesis' of what Rome was like. They didn't develop much, sure, but they gladly stole it from everybody else and worked it into their civilization. We could have seen tractor-engined chariots, but instead we have a childish fear of stimpacks.
- And to tie in the other things: The Gear. I actually didn't mind the use of sports equipment. In fact I found that very clever and well-suited to the environment. What I didn't find clever was the awkward way they had of "leveling up" their armor with curiously well-built metal parts that didn't seem like any logical progression or increasing thickness. And I especially found the complete lack of standardization an affront to my Roman sensibilities. Again, a highly disciplined army that cannot train on shared equipment is nonsensical. Even if they stratified their men by seniority or merit as per Republican times, at the very least you should see common munitions between levels. It's not that machetes seem trite and worthless so much as they show legionaries often having a hodgepodge of random guns that may or may not work.
- And AGAIN to tie into the military side: Expandability. I'm sorry, but it's post-apocalyptia. You don't have the manpower to carelessly toss soldiers away and decimate them at leisure, especially not when you're up against an industrializing state. Once again Rome didn't do that either: their stratified battle ranks were a matter of expedience, not a desire to see their men butchered. When those disappeared in Imperial times, legions were precious: Ever heard the phrase, 'Give me back my Legions'?
Yes yes yes, "But Warhawk, it's NOT Rome!"
Don't care. Everything Rome did would have made perfect sense here. Everything Caesar's Legion did, did not make sense. It wasn't consistent with the world it inhabited, so it's like a fat, scarlet ulcer hanging off the Hoover Dam. Everybody knows it, which is why most tend to default to the NCR. Some "counterbalance" there.
- It's still not Rome. I'd support it if it had a functioning society behind it. Don't give me that "thesis and antithesis" crap: Own up and build it or get out of Dodge.
- The slavery theme is excessive and trite. They had the opportunity to take Roman virtues at face value and make slavery a gray-area with well-treated and even 'willing' slaves. Instead they farm women and children from foreign lands and push slaves around, ordering them to carry outlandishly huge rucksacks while barefoot in the Nevada sand.
- Their tactics aren't there. Sure you have the "divide and conquer" meta stuff but in the end the whole game is about those damned Frumentarii. You don't see battle ranks, no pilum-tossing first lines, nothing. "Well disciplined" equates to attacking in random gaggles? They could have at least described it otherwise in lore if the game was that limited, but they didn't even do that.
- Shunning technology. To cherrypick Caesar's on words: that is the 'antithesis' of what Rome was like. They didn't develop much, sure, but they gladly stole it from everybody else and worked it into their civilization. We could have seen tractor-engined chariots, but instead we have a childish fear of stimpacks.
- And to tie in the other things: The Gear. I actually didn't mind the use of sports equipment. In fact I found that very clever and well-suited to the environment. What I didn't find clever was the awkward way they had of "leveling up" their armor with curiously well-built metal parts that didn't seem like any logical progression or increasing thickness. And I especially found the complete lack of standardization an affront to my Roman sensibilities. Again, a highly disciplined army that cannot train on shared equipment is nonsensical. Even if they stratified their men by seniority or merit as per Republican times, at the very least you should see common munitions between levels. It's not that machetes seem trite and worthless so much as they show legionaries often having a hodgepodge of random guns that may or may not work.
- And AGAIN to tie into the military side: Expandability. I'm sorry, but it's post-apocalyptia. You don't have the manpower to carelessly toss soldiers away and decimate them at leisure, especially not when you're up against an industrializing state. Once again Rome didn't do that either: their stratified battle ranks were a matter of expedience, not a desire to see their men butchered. When those disappeared in Imperial times, legions were precious: Ever heard the phrase, 'Give me back my Legions'?
Yes yes yes, "But Warhawk, it's NOT Rome!"
Don't care. Everything Rome did would have made perfect sense here. Everything Caesar's Legion did, did not make sense. It wasn't consistent with the world it inhabited, so it's like a fat, scarlet ulcer hanging off the Hoover Dam. Everybody knows it, which is why most tend to default to the NCR. Some "counterbalance" there.
Legatus Nuntius
First time out of the vault
Sorry, I couldn't find the quote button and the layout of the site was a little confusing.
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
It literally says "reply with quote" under each post in plain english....
Legatus Nuntius
First time out of the vault
I don’t think their Rome, the Legion is an adaptation of multiple systems and ideologies to the wasteland. I do believe they may be the most viable power in the Western part of the US.
Probablythe worst aspect of the Legion I won’t deny it. But consider that the system of slavery in the Legion isn’t slavery like we would think of it, the children of slaves are taken away from their parents to be raised by Legion priestess’s. Lets not forget that in Vegas theirs pretty grisly trade involving children, not war captives, the only group that has no form of forced labor would be the Brotherhood and that just because they loot and steal what they want. Most of the Legion slaves are really just those who have stood against them or committed crimes against them. Notice there are no slave owners, these are just people have no political rights, second class citizens.
The Legion has a much better grasp on tactics than the other wasteland factions. The BoS just wear combat armor and walk towards artillery.
The NCR just think giving enough men rapid fire weapons and massing them for a decisive battle is the best way to win, pretty much 18th century infantry tactics but with assault rifles. The Legion have flexible formations, flanking tactics, infiltration, train their soldiers to be able to fight both in ranged combat and in hand to hand, and have troops disciplined enough not to show up drunk to the battlefield.
The NCR makes fairly poor use of the amazing array of old world resources makingpriceless power armor useless and using vertibirds and the private transports for officers rather than landing spec ops behind enemy lines. Think about it they could have just used a Vertibird to bomb Caesars camp.
Legion troops are tougher to take down, seriously they have better health which is meant to show they have higher training and thus harder to take down, with exception of the battle of the Hoover Dam I imagine the NCR takes higher casualties. Also remember Legion women devote themselves to having kids meaning that they have a higher both rate so in the long run the Legion will simply out reproduce the NCR.
Your right the Legion isn't Rome but neither is the NCR America. However the Legion has a far better chance of becoming like Rome than the NCR has of becoming like America.
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Nas92
It Wandered In From the Wastes
I'd support Caesar's Legion if it wasn't a pretty much all evil faction. The idea itself I like, but they really don't give you any real reason why you should go with them. Only that the NCR is corrupt and they allegadely protect their citizens. And yes NCR is corrupt, and the Legion may protect their citizens against most everyone except for themselves. I also think it's false that everyone will be equal in a Legion controlled society, that personal strength will determine one's station, since simply by being a legionnaire you are considered superior to everyone else. They really went overboard with making the Legion extremists, they should have been a semi-civilized militia and have the slaving part cut out or made a bit less stupid evil.
CthuluIsSpy
A Smooth-Skin
I'd support Caesar's legion if they were a bit more developped, and if they didn't have such a confusing stance on tech.
Ok, so they hate technology...which is why they use fire arms, thermic lances and the occasional plasma grenade.
What?
Also, weren't the Romans very fond of tech? I think it would have been more interesting if the Legion philosophy wasn't so much anti-tech in general, and along the lines of them accepting only technology that they create.
There could even be a sort of priesthood, who are the only ones permitted to know old world technology, and are charged with adapting it into Legion inventions. Caesar would be the leader of this priesthood, naturally.
Ok, so they hate technology...which is why they use fire arms, thermic lances and the occasional plasma grenade.
What?
Also, weren't the Romans very fond of tech? I think it would have been more interesting if the Legion philosophy wasn't so much anti-tech in general, and along the lines of them accepting only technology that they create.
There could even be a sort of priesthood, who are the only ones permitted to know old world technology, and are charged with adapting it into Legion inventions. Caesar would be the leader of this priesthood, naturally.
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Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
The Legion isn't anti tech, they just give more value to things forged by human hands as opposed to built in mass, the plasma grenades are more an issue with level lists spawning those on their inventories despite them being against using energy weapons.
In the end Caesar does own an autodoc, so he is also a huge hypocrite.
In the end Caesar does own an autodoc, so he is also a huge hypocrite.
BigBoss
Your Local Scrub
Except Sander would VAT me for being anti-feminist.
Sorry, couldn't help it.
Sorry, couldn't help it.
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
I'd support Caesar's Legion if:
Obsidian really dropped the ball on the Legion.
I mean, they weren't so bad. They served their purpose as a horde of tribalistic raiders under a strong leader well.
- They looked like everyone had been describing (Wasteland themed Roman Soldiers) instead of Mad Max Raiders wearing football armor
- Put more thought behind their values (For instance: Old World Tech is bad because it's remnants of an evil destructive world, we should innovate and make our own new world. As opposed to: Tech and medicine is bad....just because)
- Their soldiers were actually threatening (Even if individually they were crap but dangerous in numbers)
- We weren't bombarded with Anti-Legion dialogue for the first half of the game
Obsidian really dropped the ball on the Legion.
I mean, they weren't so bad. They served their purpose as a horde of tribalistic raiders under a strong leader well.
CthuluIsSpy
A Smooth-Skin
Agree with everything, except for the part about them not being threatening. Assassins are scary sons of bitches.
But yeah, they definitely needed more work.
I think another issue is that they put the NCR everywhere, especially around new vegas, where all of the important stuff happens. It does make sense from a realism standpoint, but it does make the legion option difficult.
Ah, so the plasma grenades are a bug? Interesting.
Are the thermic lances, rippers, super sledges and AMR also bugs?
Dinxy
First time out of the vault
This kind of debate is exactly why I love Fallout games (New Vegas in particular) so much.
Although I haven't read the entire thread (yet), I enjoyed reading about other people's view of Legion and NCR. And although I haven't finished the game (despite the fact that this is my second play-through), I am definitely planning on joining the Legion later on. Shocking, I know... Even more so, since I'm roleplaying a female rifle-wielding cowboy grunt that's currently fighting for the NCR. I am using NCR standard-issue Service rifle most of the time, wearing NCR Ranger Combat Armor, and generally leading NCR's first special forces team (consisting of me, Veronica and ED-E) behind enemy lines, attacking Legion strong points and wiping out their raiding parties. I do all sorts of special forces stuff around Forlorn Hope (ambushing Legion patrols, freeing captured soldiers and civilians, taking back Nelson single-handedly...). And that's exactly the problem I have with the NCR, and my main reason to believe they don't stand a chance against Legion - I'm the only person doing it.
Their military leadership is incompetent. Also, their politicians are corrupt and greedy and their bureaucracy is a mess - resulting in a huge chunk of their population not getting food and water - but let's focus on the military for now...
After hearing the news of a red-headed cowboy girl turning the tide of battle around Nelson and Forlorn Hope in ONE DAY, they fail to do anything. They don't learn any valuable lesson from that example - mainly that a small, elite team with superb equipment can achieve what was previously tough impossible. They don't even bother to send some troopers to take positions in ALREADY BUILT pillboxes on high ground around Nelson. Instead, the town remains deserted, with the only military presence being one Ranger on the roadblock near the town, with some scared recruits. If the NCR brass knew what the hell they were doing, they'd send the First Recon to take positions on high grounds around town, providing sniper (and possibly even artillery spotter) cover for Rangers and troopers holding the line in MANY, MANY pillboxes and guard towers surrounding Nelson. Hell, they'd be sending their newly-formed special forces teams across the river, harassing the Legion left and right
Meanwhile, Legion constantly sends raiding parties to ambush NCR patrols deep in their own territory, successfully disrupts their supply lines, and on every turn plays on it's strengths, while at the same time exploiting NCR's weaknesses. They use the terrain to their advantage, bombarding their enemies with rifle fire from high ground and providing cover to melee fighters who charge the enemy and finish them off in close quarters. They are generally physically tougher and more difficult to kill then NCR troopers. And that's not even mentioning the most obvious elephant in the room - Legion is winning the psychological war against the NCR. It's winning handsomely, through and through. The closer I get to the front lines, the more demoralized and terrified the NCR troopers are. People say Legion's violence is barbaric - I disagree. It's not barbaric, and it's certainly not mindless. It has a purpose. It's well thought-out, and carried out in a very efficient manner. It was meant to shock, provoke fear and send a message. The message is "This is what awaits you if you resist us" to the NCR troops, and "This is what awaits you because you are lowlife criminals" to bandits and raiders. Hell, they even managed to infiltrate New Vegas without anyone ever noticing...
The result? Due to disrupted supply lines, low morale, poor training, and half of soldiers pissing their pants when they hear the Legion is coming, the NCR military is practically impotent, as far as their attack capabilities go.
So, in short, there are pros and cons to the Legion.
CONS:
- Their misogyny (obviously).
- Slavery, although that's up for a debate, since we don't have any idea how slaves are actually treated in their territories. They might be better off then the NCR citizens, for all we know.
- Their fashion sense.
- Fear of technology.
- Cult of personality style of government, doomed to fail when the leader inevitably dies.
- Lack of quests, and generally not being developed enough as a faction (from the gameplay view).
But still, the misogyny could be explained by the fact that they're a militaristic society in an early stage of development, operating in a freakin' war zone. You can't judge a post-apocalyptic army by a moral code of a functioning society. Keep in mind, we don't see any Legion towns or villages in the game. What's going on there is mostly left to our imagination. You don't see how women are treated outside the military camps.
Also,their fashion sense is understandable, since they're in the freakin' desert (even the lowest ranking troops have kickass boots, by the way - I'm a sucker for good quality boots). NCR also issues some crappy equipment to it's troops (with the exception of Rangers), so Legion's football paddings are not even that bad in comparison. Machetes may be crude, but they're very low-maintenance, and available in huge quantities. Whereas all the rifles and energy weapons I scavenge are in such poor condition, I'd be better off just buying a new rifle at the Gun Runners, rather then fixing it.
PROS:
- Their treatment of criminals.
- Their treatment of raiders.
- No corruption or bureaucracy. No politicians.
- Rude, crude and functional. Sometimes, that's exactly what society needs to be.
Well, that's it for my first post. I could write 10 pages about both the Legion and the NCR, but for now I'll leave it at this. I'll be happy to elaborate all of my claims further, if need be.
Although I haven't read the entire thread (yet), I enjoyed reading about other people's view of Legion and NCR. And although I haven't finished the game (despite the fact that this is my second play-through), I am definitely planning on joining the Legion later on. Shocking, I know... Even more so, since I'm roleplaying a female rifle-wielding cowboy grunt that's currently fighting for the NCR. I am using NCR standard-issue Service rifle most of the time, wearing NCR Ranger Combat Armor, and generally leading NCR's first special forces team (consisting of me, Veronica and ED-E) behind enemy lines, attacking Legion strong points and wiping out their raiding parties. I do all sorts of special forces stuff around Forlorn Hope (ambushing Legion patrols, freeing captured soldiers and civilians, taking back Nelson single-handedly...). And that's exactly the problem I have with the NCR, and my main reason to believe they don't stand a chance against Legion - I'm the only person doing it.
Their military leadership is incompetent. Also, their politicians are corrupt and greedy and their bureaucracy is a mess - resulting in a huge chunk of their population not getting food and water - but let's focus on the military for now...
After hearing the news of a red-headed cowboy girl turning the tide of battle around Nelson and Forlorn Hope in ONE DAY, they fail to do anything. They don't learn any valuable lesson from that example - mainly that a small, elite team with superb equipment can achieve what was previously tough impossible. They don't even bother to send some troopers to take positions in ALREADY BUILT pillboxes on high ground around Nelson. Instead, the town remains deserted, with the only military presence being one Ranger on the roadblock near the town, with some scared recruits. If the NCR brass knew what the hell they were doing, they'd send the First Recon to take positions on high grounds around town, providing sniper (and possibly even artillery spotter) cover for Rangers and troopers holding the line in MANY, MANY pillboxes and guard towers surrounding Nelson. Hell, they'd be sending their newly-formed special forces teams across the river, harassing the Legion left and right
Meanwhile, Legion constantly sends raiding parties to ambush NCR patrols deep in their own territory, successfully disrupts their supply lines, and on every turn plays on it's strengths, while at the same time exploiting NCR's weaknesses. They use the terrain to their advantage, bombarding their enemies with rifle fire from high ground and providing cover to melee fighters who charge the enemy and finish them off in close quarters. They are generally physically tougher and more difficult to kill then NCR troopers. And that's not even mentioning the most obvious elephant in the room - Legion is winning the psychological war against the NCR. It's winning handsomely, through and through. The closer I get to the front lines, the more demoralized and terrified the NCR troopers are. People say Legion's violence is barbaric - I disagree. It's not barbaric, and it's certainly not mindless. It has a purpose. It's well thought-out, and carried out in a very efficient manner. It was meant to shock, provoke fear and send a message. The message is "This is what awaits you if you resist us" to the NCR troops, and "This is what awaits you because you are lowlife criminals" to bandits and raiders. Hell, they even managed to infiltrate New Vegas without anyone ever noticing...
The result? Due to disrupted supply lines, low morale, poor training, and half of soldiers pissing their pants when they hear the Legion is coming, the NCR military is practically impotent, as far as their attack capabilities go.
So, in short, there are pros and cons to the Legion.
CONS:
- Their misogyny (obviously).
- Slavery, although that's up for a debate, since we don't have any idea how slaves are actually treated in their territories. They might be better off then the NCR citizens, for all we know.
- Their fashion sense.
- Fear of technology.
- Cult of personality style of government, doomed to fail when the leader inevitably dies.
- Lack of quests, and generally not being developed enough as a faction (from the gameplay view).
But still, the misogyny could be explained by the fact that they're a militaristic society in an early stage of development, operating in a freakin' war zone. You can't judge a post-apocalyptic army by a moral code of a functioning society. Keep in mind, we don't see any Legion towns or villages in the game. What's going on there is mostly left to our imagination. You don't see how women are treated outside the military camps.
Also,their fashion sense is understandable, since they're in the freakin' desert (even the lowest ranking troops have kickass boots, by the way - I'm a sucker for good quality boots). NCR also issues some crappy equipment to it's troops (with the exception of Rangers), so Legion's football paddings are not even that bad in comparison. Machetes may be crude, but they're very low-maintenance, and available in huge quantities. Whereas all the rifles and energy weapons I scavenge are in such poor condition, I'd be better off just buying a new rifle at the Gun Runners, rather then fixing it.
PROS:
- Their treatment of criminals.
- Their treatment of raiders.
- No corruption or bureaucracy. No politicians.
- Rude, crude and functional. Sometimes, that's exactly what society needs to be.
Well, that's it for my first post. I could write 10 pages about both the Legion and the NCR, but for now I'll leave it at this. I'll be happy to elaborate all of my claims further, if need be.
TheRedWastelander
First time out of the vault
No not really. Not only is that "Tough on Criminals" stuff unfair, but in real life it's not even effective. If anything it makes the criminals more brutal and less reasonable as proved by reality.
And the reason they don't have corruption is because they're essentially a fascist state. The only politician they have is Caesar. How are they functional? The reason Rome was so successful in it's conquests is because they treated their enslaved well. Rule through fear and brutality only gets you so far...
Anyways I completely agree with your criticisms on the NCR.
valcik
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Skirts cannot protect your junk properly in the heat of fight.
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
It keeps them breezy.