If Fallout: New Vegas was developed by Bethesda

[SnapSlav]

If Fallout: New Vegas is exactly the same as it is now except it was developed by Bethesda Game Studios, would you hate it?
That's a rhetorical question, of course you would.

Let's see if I can answer the question without paying heed to the haughty snark at the end of it.... Well, guess I just failed that. >_<

This is a difficult question to address, because it proposes an unlikely scenario. If developer was the ONLY difference, no, I would not hate it. I wasn't dreading FO3 while it was still in development, I was filled with excitement. My "optimism" was measured by the recognition that it would NOT be Van Buren, resurrected, and that I should expect stark differences, but as long as I was left with a good Fallout game, differences I could get over. I ended up loathing the game because of the game itself, not the company name attached to it. However, unlike the logical fallacy of post hoc, placing some level of blame on Bethesda IS a valid criticism. They made the game, after all, and you can make simple note of their methods, which is why associations can be raised.

One thing that crops up on the internet that I always find tiresome is the ease with which people will resort to "tried and true" comebacks to make their point, and then not make a point at all, but feel like they certainly have. It's true that there are many FO3 haters who are blinded by their anti-Bethesda bias, but their existence does NOT make everyone who dislikes FO3 just like them. People will oversimplify their comment and end up stating something that's easy to take apart, like "because Bethesda made it", but that just makes their statement easy to refute, not the actual sentiment/point/criticism. When people criticize critics for being "too biased" in their reviews, they're not wrong in their criticism just because "too biased" is absurd. While that is an absurd criticism, what they did wrong was mislabel the actual problem, "too close-minded". The criticism itself was valid, but mistranslated. Memes have the tendency to cause this with increasing frequency, because it's too easy to recall "popular phrases" and forget the correct ones. "That's like, just your opinion, man" has been the source of TOO many errors in thinking, because it's a popular meme. It doesn't make its application appropriate, however.

The point I'm getting at is that it's easy to assume that people hate FO3 because it was Bethesda, and no matter how you change the situation they will never realize that they're hypocrites, even if you face them with the concept of "Take something you DO like, then suppose it was made by the company you do NOT like" and watch them contradict themselves in the same breath. But being easy doesn't make it correct. These types of people exist, but they're not the entirety of FO3 detractors, by far. Hypothetically, if Bethesda made FONV, it would not be the same as the FONV we got, and THAT would lead us to potentially hate it, not the simple fact that Bethesda created it.

 

[Makta]

Text etc

Even if i didn't care at first i do agree with the iron sight after playing NV. And they did really fuck up with no traits. But the ammo is not something i really care about since you will probably only use 1 kind of ammo in NV anyways unless you got a crappy weapon and need some AP rounds.

F2 had different types of ammo but you never really used it! But that was mostly due to a bug in the game that thet never fixed.

 

[woo1108]

at NV they revived trait which was killed by beth at 3.
for ammo, not only ap is useful but also for hp or jhp.

at FO2 different ammo is useful.
if you encount enemy who are equip with metal amor, ap would be useful. but for who equips leather amor or jack, hp deal more damage than ap.

 

[aenemic]

at NV they revived trait which was killed by beth at 3.
for ammo, not only ap is useful but also for hp or jhp.

at FO2 different ammo is useful.
if you encount enemy who are equip with metal amor, ap would be useful. but for who equips leather amor or jack, hp deal more damage than ap.

Not with the original game and official patches. AP ammo didn't do shit, because it was bugged. It's been fixed by the community afterwards.

Even if i didn't care at first i do agree with the iron sight after playing NV. And they did really fuck up with no traits. But the ammo is not something i really care about since you will probably only use 1 kind of ammo in NV anyways unless you got a crappy weapon and need some AP rounds.

F2 had different types of ammo but you never really used it! But that was mostly due to a bug in the game that thet never fixed.

Well, I hope they don't take it out just because some people don't feel it's necessary. I get a lot of enjoyment out of purchasing different kinds of ammo for different occasions and crafting my own. And to be honest, I've found different ammo types extremely useful in NV on Very Hard. The early legion assassins can eat a lot of bullets and AP ammo helps a lot against them. Pulse slugs for shotguns work wonders for one-shot sneak-killing robots. The explosive rounds for the AMR bring that weapon to entirely new heights. You can sneak crit a group of enemies from very very far away. And anything that isn't killed by the first shot will get crippled from the head down.

But yeah, I think they could've made even bigger differences to the ammo types.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Text etc

Even if i didn't care at first i do agree with the iron sight after playing NV. And they did really fuck up with no traits. But the ammo is not something i really care about since you will probably only use 1 kind of ammo in NV anyways unless you got a crappy weapon and need some AP rounds.

F2 had different types of ammo but you never really used it! But that was mostly due to a bug in the game that thet never fixed.

Try fighting NCR Veteran rangers on hard hardcore. Unless you have 100000 rounds, you aren't going to have a good time fighting them.

 

[Makta]

Text etc

Even if i didn't care at first i do agree with the iron sight after playing NV. And they did really fuck up with no traits. But the ammo is not something i really care about since you will probably only use 1 kind of ammo in NV anyways unless you got a crappy weapon and need some AP rounds.

F2 had different types of ammo but you never really used it! But that was mostly due to a bug in the game that thet never fixed.

Try fighting NCR Veteran rangers on hard hardcore. Unless you have 100000 rounds, you aren't going to have a good time fighting them.

Just aim for their heads. They are not hard! The only thing i've found challenging is to take out sloan at low level with medicore equipment or take out the deathclaw sanctuary "?" without explosives.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Text etc

Even if i didn't care at first i do agree with the iron sight after playing NV. And they did really fuck up with no traits. But the ammo is not something i really care about since you will probably only use 1 kind of ammo in NV anyways unless you got a crappy weapon and need some AP rounds.

F2 had different types of ammo but you never really used it! But that was mostly due to a bug in the game that thet never fixed.

Try fighting NCR Veteran rangers on hard hardcore. Unless you have 100000 rounds, you aren't going to have a good time fighting them.

Just aim for their heads. They are not hard! The only thing i've found challenging is to take out sloan at low level with medicore equipment or take out the deathclaw sanctuary "?" without explosives.

Did that. Armor was still too high.

 

[woo1108]

and thier weapon is strong enough to kill me at very hard difficulty.
using VATS doesn't help much since VATS is not invincible unlike fo3.

 

[Josan]

If Fallout: New Vegas is exactly the same as it is now except it was developed by Bethesda Game Studios, would you hate it?
That's a rhetorical question, of course you would.

If Fallout: New Vegas had been developed by Bethesda it would NOT be exactly the same as it is now.

 

[2house2fly]

I have yet to see any criticisms of Fallout 3 that are worth a response, all I ever read is "New Vegas has better characters, better gameplay, better story, more interactive game world, and it was made by Obsidian" and it rarely goes deeper than that.

"All people do is say they like New Vegas better than Fallout 3 and then give several reasons why. It's infuriating!"

 

[Oppen]

Beth took the FPS/Gameplay for a test and then modders fixed most of what was missing and Obsidian added the "best" parts to their game.
And i never said it was "F3 fans" but if you check these forums most of the old farts put the game on the shelf quite fast and the game attracted a lot of new players wich i guess are the big part of the modders. Especially since they could have come from modding Oblivion etc.

OK, I understand now what you meant. However, I checked, and you did say "F3 fans". Literally, it was "fans of F3".

 

[Wumbology]

But the ammo is not something i really care about since you will probably only use 1 kind of ammo in NV anyways unless you got a crappy weapon and need some AP rounds.

Uh.
No, actually. Try using that ammo sometimes- increases combat effectiveness hundredfold. I've taken on character it would have taken another couple levels to kill easily by taking advantage of hollow-point rounds, or other special ammo.

My only complaint is most armor-piercing rounds have to be crafted, and can't be bought. Which is stupid, especially if you're not repair-centric.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

But the ammo is not something i really care about since you will probably only use 1 kind of ammo in NV anyways unless you got a crappy weapon and need some AP rounds.

Uh.
No, actually. Try using that ammo sometimes- increases combat effectiveness hundredfold. I've taken on character it would have taken another couple levels to kill easily by taking advantage of hollow-point rounds, or other special ammo.

My only complaint is most armor-piercing rounds have to be crafted, and can't be bought. Which is stupid, especially if you're not repair-centric.

^^^ This.

AP rounds are very, very useful against armored enemies like Deathclaws and NCR vets. A LMG with AP rounds will absolutely murder them. A LMG with normal rounds though is terrible against them.

I do agree that it's disappointing that you can't craft AP and HP rounds, but I suppose it's for balance.

 

[sigma1932]

I was disappointed by most of NV as it is due to ridiculous amounts of unrealized potential and (Despite NV being a notable improvement in many areas) the amount of derp that was carried over from FO3. So, no, changing the name in the "Developed By" field of the credits and nothing else wouldn't change my opinion of the game.

How is this different from any other Fallouts? Take Fallout 1, what world changing consequences did quests have?

Off the top of my head:
1. If you pay the water merchants to take water to Vault 13, you get an extra 100 days to complete the water chip quest, but (at least in the original release) the Mutants find the vault 100 days sooner.
2. If you screw around in other places too long before completing the tasks at Necropolis, Super Mutants will have completely overrun the place.
3. There are distinctive endings for nearly every location in the game, all based on how you handle each areas' issues.

Quests are certainly tied to each other in Fallout 3, for example when you've already accepted Mr Burke's proposal have you tried seeing what happens if you help the ghouls take over Tenpenny Tower (by murdering all the inhabitants) before you Nuke Megaton?

The exact same thing happens as otherwise, just with slightly different fluff dialogue and Roy replaces Tenpenny as who's talking to Burke. You end up with the exact same shops as you would otherwise (just run by ghouls instead), the same personal suite in the tower (which is identical in functionality to the Megaton house you get if you save the town instead), and Three Dog makes fluff comments about your involvement in the whole matter. Overall, the rest of the wasteland doesn't give a crap... it doesn't empower ghouls to take over other settlements, it doesn't change how the ghouls at Underworld react to you, nothing.

No nuking a town doesn't fail the Moira quest, but she does turn into a ghoul and you get a hilarious dialogue exchange with her after fast travelling to Megaton;

Which is pure fluff... not meaningful consequence. Meaningful consequence would be if Rivet City or Underworld wouldn't let you in any more or would attack you on sight after hearing Three-Dog blab about you blowing up Megaton for fear that you might do the same sort of heinous act to them for a measly few hundred caps.

but if you find her errands and experiments annoying, there are multiple ways to end the wasteland survival guide quest besides killing her, and they depend on what stats or karma you have, as does everything else in the game.

And they all end up with the same final result-- you get the Dream Crusher Perk, whatever leftover XP you hadn't gotten yet for the WSG quests, and a 30% discount at her store if she's still alive and has the store (meaningless either way due to bad design of the whole in-game economy)... in other words, how you get to the "not writing the book" result is all fluff that doesn't matter.

And isn't Karma easy to gain in Fallout New Vegas? I'm not that much into the game, but I found this: "You can go to free-side in the mormon fort and donate medical supplies you will gain good karma."

You can manipulate karma at will in either game. It's one of the stupid things that carried over from FO3 into NV that basically serves to remove RPG-value from the game.

And it was Obsidian who decided to bring these things into the game, along with a lot of other minor and major changes that made the game a lot better. But the one and most important part was the writing. In the end, that's what makes NV a great game for me. And that's all Obsidian, no matter how you twist and turn it.

To add a point here, it's impossible to argue with certainty that Obsidian wouldn't have added the same or similar mechanics even if there was no FO3 modding community to speak of, so saying that "All Obsidian did was add stuff that the modding community added to FO3" is an extremely flawed argument.

Any time you're comparing two games (especially when specifically critiquing their developers as part of the comparison), the only fair and accurate way to do so is "out of the box" (i.e. no mods on either game), because that's what the developers expect you to spend your money on, and that's ultimately what drives the industry.

If, in order to be satisfied with a game, I have use third-party patches/mods/etc. to change it so much that the only thing that still resembles what I originally bought is the packaging, then that means the developer doesn't actually deserve my money because they made a crap-tastic product.

 

[aenemic]

And it was Obsidian who decided to bring these things into the game, along with a lot of other minor and major changes that made the game a lot better. But the one and most important part was the writing. In the end, that's what makes NV a great game for me. And that's all Obsidian, no matter how you twist and turn it.

To add a point here, it's impossible to argue with certainty that Obsidian wouldn't have added the same or similar mechanics even if there was no FO3 modding community to speak of, so saying that "All Obsidian did was add stuff that the modding community added to FO3" is an extremely flawed argument.

I wholeheartedly agree. The fact is that these were mostly things that were actually IN the Fallout games from the beginning, that Bethesda chose to TAKE OUT. So even if you want to thank the modders for thinking of them, it's highly likely that the sole reason for their existance is because they're arguably supposed to be in a Fallout game.

And just for the fun of it, this is what I believe F:NV would have looked like if Bethesda had made it:

- The main goal of the game would have been to help NCR take over New Vegas and destory that evil madman Mr House.

- Mr House would have deployed an army of Super Mutants. Potentially, these would have been his own upgraded version, the Super Duper Mutants.

- The Legion would not have existed, and in their stead there'd be "raiders".

- The only involvement the Brotherhood would have had would be a quest where you get them to join forces with NCR to destroy Dr Evi- I mean, Mr. House.

- There's be no AMR, no different ammo types, 2-3 different high-end weapons in each category.

- Jacobstown would not exist. Marcus could make a cameo however, but it's likely that he had turned against humankind and is now leading a raiding band of Nightkin.

- The final battle for New Vegas would present you with two options: annex it into the NCR (good) or nuke it, killing everyone inside (evil). Either way, the NCR wouldn't really care, you'd still be a hero.

 

[Makta]

^^^ This.

AP rounds are very, very useful against armored enemies like Deathclaws and NCR vets. A LMG with AP rounds will absolutely murder them. A LMG with normal rounds though is terrible against them.

I do agree that it's disappointing that you can't craft AP and HP rounds, but I suppose it's for balance.

The problem is that the weapon that would make a difference is weak anyways even with AP rounds so by the time you get ap rounds you would probably have found/bought a better weapon that doesn't really need ap rounds already.

Maybe it is more of NV being to easy so the ammo doesn't matter much. Hopefully they changethat in the next game.

 

[woo1108]

Does it? I use AP ammo useful with service rifle.
you can get both of them(plus some money and caravan lunch) at Mojave outpost and at that time it is really useful.
with "That gun" and AP ammo, it would be better to fight with nightkins.

 

[Makta]

Does it? I use AP ammo useful with service rifle.
you can get both of them(plus some money and caravan lunch) at Mojave outpost and at that time it is really useful.
with "That gun" and AP ammo, it would be better to fight with nightkins.

The service rifle is an early gun.. What anemies are you facing that you would use it on with AP rounds?
And there are not really any nightkins except in the ghoul place "early on" unless you are going out for a hunt.

On a side note i never used that gun since i get lucky early on and then i swap it out for rifles.. Can't remember it being better or at least much better than lucky.

I should really check it out.


Edit: Slighty faster ROF vs better spread.. And you get lucky much earlier

 

[woo1108]

Rad scorpions and nighkins.
or super mutant master at jack rabbit spring.
I can't kill the mutant master but I can shoot thier hand and let them drop their weapon. and I get thier weapon then avenge will start.

 

[aenemic]

Does it? I use AP ammo useful with service rifle.
you can get both of them(plus some money and caravan lunch) at Mojave outpost and at that time it is really useful.
with "That gun" and AP ammo, it would be better to fight with nightkins.

The service rifle is an early gun.. What anemies are you facing that you would use it on with AP rounds?
And there are not really any nightkins except in the ghoul place "early on" unless you are going out for a hunt.

On a side note i never used that gun since i get lucky early on and then i swap it out for rifles.. Can't remember it being better or at least much better than lucky.

I should really check it out.


Edit: Slighty faster ROF vs better spread.. And you get lucky much earlier

What difficulty do you usually play at?

I found the Service Rifle with AP ammo very helpful against the Legion assassins. Granted, they will only come after you if you get your rep way down that early in the game, by killing the Legionnaires in Nipton for example. This is on Very Hard.

But at that point of the game, you get better and improve your equipment rather rapidly. I didn't use the Service Rifle for long before I picked up That Gun, which I also mainly had as a side arm with AP ammo for assassins.

The point is that it's pretty dependant on how you play, where you go and what you do at which level. You can definitely circumvent the use of different ammo types, at least on other difficulties than Very Hard, but there's no denying that they can also be very useful for different situations.