Interplay's Fallout MMO

I don't think it'd be incredibly difficult to make a Fallout MMO in the same vein as the original. But to get the MMO to really feel like the original would require an uncompromising attitude against most of the sissy traditions of current-day MMO's.

For instance, completely open-PvP is a must. You need to be able to attack anyone, anywhere, for any reason, or no reason at all, without anyone's permission.

Death needs to be permanent, so that people really think before they pick a fight.

Fist-fights need to be non-life threatening, unless your unarmed skill is above 100% or so. So if you and another player just brawl, you shouldn't be able to kill each other, but you should be able to knock the other person unconscious, and maybe steal everything on his person.

Corpses need to be completely lootable, all pockets need to be pickable, the emphasis on gear needs to be both strong and weak at the same time. People need to give a shit about their equipment while at the same time understanding that they probably won't have it forever.

The game needs to be a survival game first. Above all else. If you put the emphasis on combat, the game's just going to be a grind-fest bullshitty bunch of crap. If you put it on loot, same problem. Keep things personal and internal. Food needs to be an issue, in order to have a good economy there needs to be consumables. These consumables should be very player-driven, as in scavenging, but looting really shouldn't come into play except in PvP.

PvE needs to be de-emphasized. There can be NPC's, but there shouldn't be any lairs of bandits you can go camp, or anything like that. If there's to be combat, there needs to be a reason for it, not just for XP or random loot. The emphasis should be on PvP if combat is to take place at all. Having the emphasis on PvP means players are going to join forces in order to stay alive. You'll find a great deal of cooperation in this kind of environment, even if you do have lots of asshats running around shooting everyone in sight because they don't take the game seriously.

You shouldn't start the game with weapons. This, combined with the lack of possible death-by-fists mentioned above, makes the concept of brand new characters rushing into battle to kill people useless. You won't see a player dying, coming back as a new character to seek vengeance. Or if you do, it won't be an instantaneous thing, as he'll need to spend time finding weapons and ammunition, and the like.

Vaults can be neutral-zones. All players can be from Vaults, and there can be tons of vaults all over the wasteland, which will enable you to pick and choose where to start from. This might seem a bit weird, to have all PC's be Vault Dwellers, but Vaults make great n00b zones, and Vaults can be the only place where PvP is turned off, enabling new players to get the ropes without needing to fear for their lives. There will be some vaults that aren't n00b zones where there is PvP, so it won't be all vaults that are like this.

XP should be gained probably in a system resembling EVE more than anything. Ultimately, MMO quests are boring and stupid as fuck, and just lame in general. So aside from a few n00b quests to get some coin in your pocket when you first start out, there really shouldn't be many of these. Keep the interaction emphasis on the players. Keep the players talking to each other, interacting and dependent on each other, and suddenly you're actually taking advantage of the MM in MMO, rather than fucking stupid games like WoW which are basically single-player games that require a monthly fee.

The flip side to this, is that XP should only accumulate when you're online, outside of the non-PvP Vault zones. So that you only gain XP when your life is on the line. XP should come very slowly. Going from level 1 to 2 should require say, 10 hours of in-game time. Level 2 should require 20 hours, level 3 30 hours, and so on. Or something like that. The idea here is that XP is going to come, you don't need to do anything for it. I realize this seems counter-intuitive, like you don't have your own life in your hands, but this eliminates power-gaming where you just grind away. It also removes the incentive to go off and attack other players or otherwise take a combat-focused play-style in order to advance. Because of this, people will play the game just to play the game, without advancement in mind, so they'll be able to actually have fun, rather than grind, which only idiots have convinced themselves is fun.

Turn-based combat might be possible, though, honestly, it should probably be avoided. You could have semi-turn-based combat, like what you see in NWN or Fallout Tactics when turn-based is turned off, where action points still matter, but combat is done rapidly. You could even slow this down a bit, so that maybe the rate at which your Action Points regenerate takes several seconds rather than being really quick. You don't want passer-byers getting caught in the combat-zone or whatever it would have to be to make this work. That'd just ruin the fun of players. One way you could make turn-based combat work is to simply have a period of like, 15 seconds where all players get to make their turns, but they're all doing it simultaneously. Then at the end of the 15 seconds, the computer makes the moves you specified. This means everybody's actually moving at the same time, but you wouldn't know what they're doing until they did it. This brings in a whole lot of complications with it, but ultimately, a real turn-based system would just outright suck, especially in major battles of more than 30 people. Can you imagine two villages going to war with each other? One turn could take hours. That's not fun, even remotely.

The game should probably be ISO in perspective. FPP could work, but admittedly, the ability to aim manually does sort of put emphasis on combat, especially in a game designed to be specifically player-to-player interaction stuff, rather than NPC's handing out nonsense quests.



Ultimately, by removing a lot of the NPC's and keeping the emphasis on the players, and having a truly player-driven world, people will actually be able to affect the world, rather than current-day MMO's where they literally have no effect on the world, but simply engage in mindless quest after mindless quest, where the whole point of the game is to get as much loot and gain as many levels as possible. Removing that emphasis is crucial to making this game really feel like Fallout. Anything less completely neuters the game.
 
If you mean that it wouldn't be profitable, I disagree. I think that people are hungry for a different kind of MMO experience, because as it is, the MMO "genre," if you can even call it that, is seriously a joke. MMO's share more in common with gambling casinos than they do videogames. And people who play MMO's, especially the more hard-core MMO players, share more in common with gambling addicts than they do with gamers.

On the other hand, I don't think my idea would be mass-marketable, because ultimately, people want easy, non-threatening MMO experiences. MMO gamers are, to put it bluntly, pussies. Even the PvPers.

EVE Online is one of the few exceptions, and it's not an exception in all ways. But at the very least, there's an integrity to their game design that you just can't find anywhere else, which is probably why EVE has been steadily increasing its population while all other games get big really fast and then begin to have their numbers dwindle, until the new expansion comes out which breaths new life into it.

But in anycase, I think that you could make the Fallout game I outlined 2D and save an enormous amount of money, and with that same amount of integrity you'd get players. Not hundreds of thousands, or even millions like World of Warcraft, but enough to be successful.
 
Tyshalle said:
If you mean that it wouldn't be profitable, I disagree. I think that people are hungry for a different kind of MMO experience, because as it is, the MMO "genre," if you can even call it that, is seriously a joke. MMO's share more in common with gambling casinos than they do videogames. And people who play MMO's, especially the more hard-core MMO players, share more in common with gambling addicts than they do with gamers.

On the other hand, I don't think my idea would be mass-marketable, because ultimately, people want easy, non-threatening MMO experiences. MMO gamers are, to put it bluntly, pussies. Even the PvPers.

EVE Online is one of the few exceptions, and it's not an exception in all ways. But at the very least, there's an integrity to their game design that you just can't find anywhere else, which is probably why EVE has been steadily increasing its population while all other games get big really fast and then begin to have their numbers dwindle, until the new expansion comes out which breaths new life into it.

But in anycase, I think that you could make the Fallout game I outlined 2D and save an enormous amount of money, and with that same amount of integrity you'd get players. Not hundreds of thousands, or even millions like World of Warcraft, but enough to be successful.


Well "friend", permanent death does not work, it just doesn't. Yes it does promote people to pick their fights better, but what the fuck am I supposed to do when a player killer comes around and kills me? Start over again? Hardly, there are just so many times that you can pay a monthly fee for a game and keep starting over again :P

For a MMO with free accounts, maybe, but not for a pay2play game.
 
The only thing I dream of is reaching lvl 50 with uber stuff and get killed because I had a lag or my computer broke down. And then what? Start all over again? Sometimes re-reaching 5 levels is annoying and situations like that happen all the time in MMO's world.
 
Which is why a Fallout Online is a silly idea. Player respawning in Fallout is just wrong.
 
Ravager69 said:
The only thing I dream of is reaching lvl 50 with uber stuff and get killed because I had a lag or my computer broke down. And then what? Start all over again? Sometimes re-reaching 5 levels is annoying and situations like that happen all the time in MMO's world.
Why the fuck you think that Fallout MMO should be about reaching level 50 and getting uber stuff?
If you haven't noticed we have been debating about how Fallout MMO shouldn't be about retarded farming and retarded creating uber-characters.
 
myzko said:
Well "friend", permanent death does not work, it just doesn't.

Please point me in the direction of your extensive experience with MMO's that do include Permadeath, and maybe I'll take your cynical viewpoint seriously. But saying something doesn't work when it's never been attempted because the fucking mainstream MMO's are a bunch of pussies who are more concerned with addicting people to their games using the same psychological addictive mechanics as a slot machine than they are worried about making a game that's actually fun and worthwhile.

No, an MMO designed like stupid ass current-day mainstream MMO's with permadeath tacked onto it wouldn't work. But a game where the entire design was built upon the foundation of open PvP with permadeath enables people to actually be creative, as opposed to going with the same tropes that causes there to be absolutely no substantial difference between WoW, EQ, UO, MxO, SWG, CoH/CoV, or any other big-time MMO out there.

Yes it does promote people to pick their fights better, but what the fuck am I supposed to do when a player killer comes around and kills me? Start over again? Hardly, there are just so many times that you can pay a monthly fee for a game and keep starting over again

In a game like I'm talking about, the emphasis wouldn't be on leveling or loot or gear or anything. The goal would be to create an environment where you're actually role playing, and actually creating a story with your character. And yes, all stories come to an end, and it's better that you go out with a bang than retire with a whimper. If your story ends, then hopefully it'll be a result of you putting your life on the line for a goal you feel is worth fighting for. If some jackass pulls a gun out on you while you're having a drink in a bar, well, that sucks too. Hopefully the murderer will get some justice, Wasteland Justice. And yeah, you'd go off and make a new character, to start a new story. And sure, it'd be painful, especially if you got attached to your character. But don't be such a fucking pussy, man. Pain is what makes shit worth doing. Not the experience of pain, necessarily, but the threat of pain, the excitement that trying to avoid pain causes, and the vengeance you can have when somebody causes you pain.

Don't give me the tired "I play games to have fun," speech, because it's fucking bullshit created by lazy Americans fat on fast food and TV, who want to believe in simple answers and are terrified of conflict (unless they can hide by the anonymity of the internet). I've had more fun in MMO's where I've actually risked something by playing than I ever had grinding away one zone at a time on EverQuest.

The concept that "permadeath just doesn't work" shows the lack of creativity on the part of the arguer.
 
Please point me in the direction of your extensive experience with MMO's that do include Permadeath

If I may?

Starwars Galaxies included it (at least for Jedi) in its early days.
However player support was overwhelmingly negative, the uproar on the boards so bad, that Sony caved in and ordered it cut from the game.

Of course Sony would go on to utterly wreak SWG, :x

I curse thee Sony with my very last breath...


I quite like perma-death myself, but I suspect I am in a very small minority of gamers.
 
I know Fallout ain't about reaching lvl 50 and getting uber stuff (that was an *example*, getting upset about it is a bit silly), but the thing is, what is the point of enjoying the situation when you loose the effects of 2 months work because of a lag in combat or a dumb-ass PK??

I know it would fit Fallout setting more, but it is a MMO after all, don't expect too much from it. It's not a true RPG game, it's mostly for kids between 12-16 years old.

What *could* be done, is making decent weapons and ammo very hard to get, thus forcing players to use melee weapons.

Or, when you are killed, you *temporary* loose all your stuff and levels and have to reaquaire it either through a quest or simply after some time.
 
Ravager69 said:
I know Fallout ain't about reaching lvl 50 and getting uber stuff (that was an *example*, getting upset about it is a bit silly), but the thing is, what is the point of enjoying the situation when you loose the effects of 2 months work because of a lag in combat or a dumb-ass PK??
Again, you are looking from the perspective of a standard grinding MMORPG. We are talking about taking taking MMORPGs to another level, where playing isn't about working, but about enjoying here and now and knowing that tomorrow you may be dead.
It's not about working and working, farming and grinding to get to lvl 50 but about world where a level 3 character is already powerful.
 
Sorrow, such a game would be easily creatable and would probably be based around much improved player co-operation, rather than just simple group's which exist within MMORPGS today.

To see such games in action, you should look at the LARP Fest community, where starting characters are "nearly" as tough as older characters. However the strength of the character lies not in his stats and skills, but in how well he plays with other people, who he knows, and which groups he is involved in.

I feel MMO's could learn a lot from such game play, rather than the massive Grind (tm)
 
Also, I think that games should be better at utilizing people who normally become PKs and griefers.
I feel that MMOs are too concentrated on quests involving monsters instead of allowing real players to be villains like raiders, bandits, murderers, etc.
i.e. there shouldn't be hostile NPC humans, but all "evil" humans should be PCs.
 
Agreed, also PK'ing evolves organically, UO used to have Anti-PK squads which would at least improve areas where players were being targetted by PKs

Other people worked within the PK mold, to play Orcs, which meant that more adventureous players could battle very dangerous foes indeed.

PK'ing works, and works well. The problem is that many games designers (and producers :evil: ) in my experience tend to be control freaks, and marketing tend to listen to players whining on the boards far too much.
 
Exactly :D .
Also, I always wanted to play MMO where I could play PK without all that grinding - be a level 1-2 raider and rob/kill other characters with a band of raiders :D .

Also, when it comes to PK and reputation, IMO every character should be a separate entity. I.e. I should be able to play a raider for a few hours/days and get killed and start playing a farmer or a heroic character without any burden :D .
 
what is the point of enjoying the situation when you loose the effects of 2 months work because of a lag in combat or a dumb-ass PK??

Theres your problem right there, the point of the game is the game, not to level, and every time someone says the word “work” in the context of “game” I want to slap them, hard. The problem with MMO’s though is once you look below the gloss, levelling and loot is really all there is to be had.

The main point of the game should be survival, not some fucking quest to save the world, stop the master, or find the holy grail, just survival. “save the world” quests are fine for single player games, but just a horrible mash for MMO’s and I think they should concentrate on making survival the point of the game. And how can survival have any meaning if you cant die, what would stop it becoming a WoW with guns. If you cant die, then becoming rich and powerful only becomes a matter of time, and that will = grind.


The big issue is the motivation to play.. I do agree that death should be permanent, this is fallout and anything else would seem cheap. However if your character is expendable, because death will be inevitable (and probably frequent) you have to create some other motivation to play. Sure creating a sandbox world for people to go round killing each other would be fun, but it would sure get boring quick, and no-one but the most hardcore is going to waste their time on any kind of traditional campaign under such rules. If you make death permanent, levels shouldn’t matter to much other than for your e-peen and some small advantage, otherwise its just going to get old quick.

What I am picturing is a kind of walking version of Elite, but ideally with a DM stirring things up to make it interesting, rather than set quests of the kill/fetch variety.

Insta death by another player should not be an option though, a single player should take several hits to kill another, and insta death only become viable by a few players all attacking at once (BUT NO FUCKING HEALERS PLS), I don’t want any of that tanking shit. Death should be a constant threat, but you should at least stand enough of a chance to either fight back or run, no one wants to keep getting insta gibbed by some loner, it may suit the wasteland setting but it wont be fun.

Im already picturing becoming a trader and hiring lots of players as body guards to stop people trying to take my shit, then getting stabbed in the back by one of them.
 
IMO, present Fallout weapon damages would fulfil those requirements. Killing people in vanilla Fallout is a chore.
 
Sorrow said:
Exactly :D .
Also, I always wanted to play MMO where I could play PK without all that grinding - be a level 1-2 raider and rob/kill other characters with a band of raiders :D .

Also, when it comes to PK and reputation, IMO every character should be a separate entity. I.e. I should be able to play a raider for a few hours/days and get killed and start playing a farmer or a heroic character without any burden :D .

I found EVE came close(ish) to getting that side of things working.
However EVE stumbles badly on the grind, and min/max'ing of equipment.

However I remember the days when Goonfleet was a horde of newbies going out and trashing established player groups.
 
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