Interplay's Fallout MMO

Sorrow said:
IMO, present Fallout weapon damages would fulfil those requirements. Killing people in vanilla Fallout is a chore.

I found it quite amusingly quick with the plasma cannon, plus the melting critical animation was one of my favourites...

I'd love to see that melting occuring in FO3, but give the nature of the beast, I don't expect to see it. ( I'm 100% certain that using a bone based animation system it would be possible to code, as long as they can scale their bones. )


Edit:
Turn-based combat might be possible, though, honestly, it should probably be avoided. You could have semi-turn-based combat, like what you see in NWN or Fallout Tactics when turn-based is turned off, where action points still matter, but combat is done rapidly. You could even slow this down a bit, so that maybe the rate at which your Action Points regenerate takes several seconds rather than being really quick.

Nice... This is a really interesting idea, I need to think about this a bit to see how practical it would be...
 
I think that using PKs as Raiders, Bandits, Enclave Patrollers and other threats of the wasteland woudl be very fun, indeed. Instead of being "annyoing playerkillers" they would become hard challenges. I think that they should have some kind of dependence of the outside, so they don't kill everyone who comes to talk with them (maybe you got something they want to trade for?) and such. But it would be nice to suddently find yourself in a village atacked by raiders. Maybe some law groups or even anti-raider groups would be formed with the common objective of fighting raiders. That would be cool.
 
.... Son of a bitch. The fucking forums ate my goddamn post.

Why doesn't NMA keep me logged in when I click on the box asking it to?
 
Turn-based combat might be possible, though, honestly, it should probably be avoided. You could have semi-turn-based combat, like what you see in NWN or Fallout Tactics when turn-based is turned off, where action points still matter, but combat is done rapidly. You could even slow this down a bit, so that maybe the rate at which your Action Points regenerate takes several seconds rather than being really quick.

Replace action points with mana, and your basically describing Guild wars PVP (to an extent).

It could work as long as you get the pace right.
 
Okay, this is the streamlined version of my last post. The forums ate it when I hit submit and it asked me to RE-LOGIN. I don't love spending an hour writing a post and having it get eaten, so I guess I'll be typing in notepad for a while and C&Ping it to these forums. Anyway, the streamlined version:

CodeZombie said:
If I may?

Starwars Galaxies included it (at least for Jedi) in its early days.

SWG was built from the ground up to be a stupid ass grinding game. You had to master 3 whole professions to even unlock the Jedi slot, and then you had to spend years of your life grinding away at that. So yeah, that's a shitty example and doesn't apply. That's a great example of how stupid and lazy game design doesn't pay off. It's not a very good example of why permadeath doesn't work.

Ravager69 said:
I know Fallout ain't about reaching lvl 50 and getting uber stuff (that was an *example*, getting upset about it is a bit silly), but the thing is, what is the point of enjoying the situation when you loose the effects of 2 months work because of a lag in combat or a dumb-ass PK??

You don't seem capable of getting out of the mindset that MMO's can be more than they are. MMO's currently are no more than mindless internet casino's for people who like videogames. They're enormous timesinks set up specifically to psychologically ADDICT you to their games, in the EXACT same way casino's hook you on slot machines and shit like that. There's tons of science on this. MMO's have the potential to be a lot more.

The game I'm describing puts the emphasis on RP, not G. When the whole point of the game is to actually have fun *now* rather than grind grind grind hoping to be able to have fun *later* (and later never comes), the pain of death matters less. Plus, ultimately the point is, if you're not so wrapped up in your stats and gear, and are actually role playing in the environment I'm talking about, the game's going to be much more exciting than every other MMO you've ever heard of, COMBINED, so that's why you'll keep playing. It'll be unexpected and fresh and every day will be a potential adventure where there are real stakes on the line.

Sorrow said:
Also, I think that games should be better at utilizing people who normally become PKs and griefers.
I feel that MMOs are too concentrated on quests involving monsters instead of allowing real players to be villains like raiders, bandits, murderers, etc.
i.e. there shouldn't be hostile NPC humans, but all "evil" humans should be PCs.

I completely agree. MMO's today do everything they can to separate PK'ers from the rest of the players, when really they could be taking advantage of them. Currently we have PvP servers and bullshit like that, so all the vaginas can have their fun grinding away mindlessly without fear of actually losing anything or being challenged. And I can't blame them, PvP in most MMO's is set up to be basically worthless. There's no real penalty to dying, and there's nothing worth fighting for, so it's purely an annoyance.




And ah christ, I typed so much more than this. But I just don't have the will to type it all out again.
 
OK, let's focus on the most probable way of developing FOOL, how exactly will it look like.

1.Story
As we know absolutely nothing about it, I won't bother to speculate. Assuming Interplay will hire good writers that know enough about Fallout or at least post apocalyptic world, this shouldn't be a problem.

2.Character Creation
In my opinion, this could be the strongest part of the game, providing Interplay will use the SPECIAL system. If so, folks will have at last some true freedom in character creation, most MMORPG allow you to choose only the class of your character and what weapons\magic school does it specialize in. In this case, skills, perks and traits would have a major impact on the gameplay, giving the player a variety of options on how to play the game.
I bet the player will be allowed to choose the race of your character - Vault Human, Wasteland Human, Supermutant and Ghoul.

3.Gameplay
The idea of splitting players into raiders, traders and guards (if done properly, an example of this is in the Silkroad game) is a sure bet. I don't think anyone can imagine a Fallout without Brahmin Drives. I'd like to see more ways to use skills like Barter (players could make their own stalls and give prices depending on their barter skill), Science (I would very like to have the ability to build a town and fortifications for it) or Repair (in the quests, where someone would have to repair the generator to power up the elevatior). Ammunition should be hard to get, so the Melee skills could be of use at last.
I don't think FOOL will keep the same style of gameplay as the original Fallout, where level 3 character was powerful (even though it would be interesting), so I suppose grinding is inevitable.

4.PvP and Permament Death
If there'd be brahmin drives and raidable cities, this could be fun indeed. I'm not into permament death, though. This should be about having fun, not watching your back all the time, plus you can't make a savegame here, so arguments like "there was no respawning in Fallout, so it shouldn't be in FOOL" is not 100% correct. Imagine if Fallout didn't have savegames. Few critical hit at the end of the game and bam - you have to start all over again. And there are many situation when you die at least couple of times before going further.
Besides, most people would get scared away and thus less people would play it, a situation not good for any MMO developer.
I think that this could be resolved with playing 3 characters instead of one. If one dies, it's replaced with a 1 lvl one, but other two remain at the same level. But if all 3 dies....then you're fucked. It's an idea from Grande Espanda (or something like that), I admit, but an interesting one nevertheless.
 
Well, honestly I'm just speculating on the type of Fallout game I'd personally like to play.

In actuality, I expect that, given Interplay's financial situation, they're not going to be looking to make a meaningful game that builds its own foundation, rather than stealing from the EQ/WoW clones out there. I expect that this game will probably be in 3rd person perspective, with a 3D game world, not an isometric viewpoint but instead more like what you see in traditional MMO's, with a third person shooter sort of thing. If they're on a tight budget they might go 2D ISO, but I doubt it.

And it'll probably just be one big ass grindfest, where PvP is consentual only, and everybody goes off to fight mobs of radiers and supermutants and camps out the Deathclaw Lairs and conducts massive raids on the supermutant base. There'll probably be 60+ levels and constant grinding, and it won't feel post apocalyptic at all.

To be honest, it'll probably suck, a lot.

But a man can dream.
 
I play Fallout in Iron Man mode only. It's an RPG after all, not a tactical simulation.

Amusingly, it isn't frustrating at all, in opposition to reloading an engagement again and again.
That's because the focus shifts from "winning" to Roleplaing.
 
Ravager69 said:
1.Story
As we know absolutely nothing about it, I won't bother to speculate. Assuming Interplay will hire good writers that know enough about Fallout or at least post apocalyptic world, this shouldn't be a problem.

They already hired Jason Anderson, one of the main creators of Fallout, so they have the benefit of doubt here.
 
I don't like The idea of permadeath because as mentioned above I don't like to watch my back all the time. If the game is free I wouldn't mind, but if I pay a monthly subscription fee and get killed all the time, redoing the same starting fucking quest over & over again would drive me mad and I could easily harm or rape someone in real life out of frustration :twisted: . A permadeath world would also force you from the start to join a guild or else you would be pretty much fuck, one would never survive alone.
 
Which is why lone heroes are rare in Fallout.

Also, what starting quest? There shouldn't be a starting quest in FOOL.
 
The Wikipedia article was wrong, Interplay is currently working only on one game. I corrected it. All the facts tell that it's FOOL, it's just that Interplay won't admit it openly before it officially announces it.
 
It still links to Gamasutra, where the misunderstanding came from. Better add a link to GameBanshee too, where he clarifies there's only one MMO
 
Isn't progress one of the main rpg aspects? I mean, when you first saw those enclave soldiers with their power armors and plasma rifles you certainly was expecting and waiting for the moment when you get your hands on that stuff. It is not really so much about that levelling and getting better stuff, it is about the experience in between being newbie and getting into enclave, for example.

But it imho all falls apart when you add stuff like pvp everywhere and permanent death. It would be just a paradise for griefers, people killing newbies for really easy money making it all just a pure chaos. And to make a MMORPG that isn't based on grinding even on some level is quite utopistic thought :). How do you make people work for something without the work part being work?

It needs to be remembered that there should be more than just the Fallout type of characters/choises (fight, talk). Professions! Merchants, weapon inventors, slavers, drug sellers, pimps, raiders, guards, more specialized combat characters, scientists etc.. Not all of these are able to defend themselves. And at the same time some profession from original fallouts aren't really working in against other humans. Pocket thieves is just one such thing. Imagine running around Den with dozen super agile pocket thieves running after you looting all your stuff from your pockets and backbags... Unlike Tyshalle I see hell of a lot possible problems that are hard to solve in a MMORPG version of fallout. Even the world and Fallout universe and the whole setting makes it extremely hard: On one hand you have this no-rules survival of the fittest ultimate-darwin-world and on other the hand is the diverse and multi-level environment where some people are just trying to get along while others pursue their own goals, some more ruthlessly than others while the world around is going backwards and forwards at the same time. If everyone wants to start "pursuing their own goals" it would translate into pure chaos. Fallout isn't chaos or chaotic :).

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be pvp, I say that pvp should be one essential part of it. But it needs to be controlled or limited in some natural way so that it doesn't get to be too centric part. Pvp should be possible everywhere and all the time but at cost.

Levelling is obviously one the biggest problems and death is the another one. If we look at fallout universe we see a lot of ufo tech stuff, character attribute enhancing equipments, highpower weapons etc.. Looking all that stuff I wouldn't be surprized if some crazy scientist had invented some sort of cloning. That opens few interesting doors. Like you could clone your character and once the original dies the clone wakes up in some lab or something. Add some tweaks, like dying would make your learning slower or cost some skill points etc.. Some kind of system like this is needed because pretty much no one would risk the life your 1 year character in a fight if it was all or nothing. And after all, it is very easy to make a believable background story for almost anything in Fallout simply because it has already so much everything (from ufo tech to sir Lancelots :p).

But in the end, Fallout is primarily about exploration and (easy) problem solving while progressing with the story (and creating your own story). I see it very very hard to make it work in MMORPG environment. I am having really hard time seeing how it could work in the end without being yet another Wow with pastell colors, living world and plasma rifles. I see huge potential in the Fallout universe but it would make a better game in some kind of cooperate system where you would start playing Fallout with a group of people instead of with other people who are total strangers.
 
Actually working on putting together a multitude of design documents for this, though if Interplay is in actuality putting together FOOL, it would stymie my efforts somewhat.

I'm a professional writer with an extensive personal background in video games, particularly CRPGs. But this sort of thing is my first foray into the realm of designing and planning them, as opposed to playing them.

With the admitted folly of attempting to do something like this, I'm predicating my efforts on one undeniable fact: Interplay, in its zombie-like state of financial uncertainty, will most likely end up trashing FOOL, if it even is producing it.

With the increasing availability of MMO technology (some iterations are available for amateur programmers, after all) and acceptance into mainstream culture (blame WoW here, hate it or love it, it did kind of revolutionize the genre), FOOL is, I believe, possible. Improbable, though.

So here's the deal, fellow gems. We can either bitch and moan about future Fallout games, or we can attempt to develop one ourselves. I'm opting for the latter, personally. Might be a pipe dream. But hell, I've got some free time.

Currently in preliminary stages of character creation / setting design, though I am leaning towards this particular environment:

I'd like to use the expanded Fallout map, incorporating areas from Fallouts 1 & 2, as well as Van Buren. Yes, I'd love for the Reservation to exist in-game. As it seems that the Van Buren design documents have not been snapped up by Bethesda and have been made available to the public, they exist in enough of a legal grey area to use in planning. When in doubt, why not? It's hardly a damned commercial venture at this point, and if it ever DID become economically viable, well, that's what intellectual property lawyers are for.

Before I outline a few preliminary ideas, recognize that Fallout will NOT translate perfectly into an MMO format, as you obviously all know. Take a few saline grains if you have to.

The focus of Fallout Online, in my mind, would not be the endless acquisition of levels and gear, though I'm sure everyone and their dogmeat would be gunning for power armor. This should be damned difficult to acquire, and even more difficult to maintain. But I digress.

Politics, politics, politics. Fallout 2, questionable in canon though it may be, did set up a volatile environment ripe for exploitation. Central to this, I believe, should be the burgeoning conflict between the major powers - the territorial clusterfuck, as I like to call it. NCR, VC, the New Reno families, and BoS should be the main players in this wasteland opera. This is post-Enclave mushroom cloud - though they may be higher-level enemies within the game, they'd be scattered remnants as opposed to a viable force to be reckoned with.

Players will be given the choice of playing humans, ghouls, or super mutants (no damned talking deathclaws!), and as such, I believe the natural starting point should be Broken Hills. Let's assume the "good" outcome of F2 as canon, and the mining town is flourishing, at least for now. This would give players a common starting point, free of associations with the other major players.

Player backgrounds would be a nice touch and give a touch of diversity to each character. As a human, you could potentially start as an Ex-Raider, Vault Dweller, Tribal, etc., and each background would provide a bonus to one or two skills and a penalty to others, much like in PnP.

I would like to preserve as much of the SPECIAL system as possible, though I'm going to go on record here right now as recommending the removal of the "Gifted" trait. When practically every player ever takes a trait, I would consider it broken for the purposes of game balance.

The challenge in preserving the system is making certain skills viable in an environment that discourages RPG elements. Speech, for example, would be particularly useless in grinding (I'd like to avoid that trope if possible) and interacting with other players. Charisma experiences the same problem as an attribute.

My solution? Give speech an active use in combat, such as inspiring teammates to have a higher hit percentage or making a "tank" more effective at taunting. After all, an enemy might focus a little more on the guy who just let loose a string of obscenities about his mother and his genital overcompensating than a simple "Me smash!" Higher level quests should only be available to a character with high charisma, encouraging groups to find a Diplomacy Boy to tackle major challenges.

Player-driven economy should be a focus, as well. Don't make special items available through killing bosses. Make players develop high science and repair to create upper-level weapons and armor, as well as to upkeep them. I would like to see a character be able to tag traps, repair, and science and still be a viable, balanced character. If that player wishes to become the richest wanderer in the wastes by creating a successful merchant consortium, that should be possible and even encouraged. Unoccupied buildings should exist and could be bought and developed into stores, medical outlets, etc.

A gunsmith would require high science, repair, and small guns, for example, while a drug lord would need high science, first aid, and doctor. This would stunt their combat skills, though, and require them to seek out other players to act as guards. Caravans would require a significant population in other cities, however, which would be difficult to build if Broken Hills acts as a central hub.

Those are some basics, not fully fleshed out yet.

I'm looking for some suggestions on how to implement a few skills in particular, mainly barter, gambling, steal, and outdoorsman. Outdoorsman could involve skinning hides and creating armor, but that's the only real practical use I can think of without adding a food and water requirement to the game, which I feel is a poor idea. A high barter skill might be necessary to purchase real estate and set up a market stall, for example. If people aren't too opposed to the idea of swapping out skill sets, I'm open to ideas there as well. Personally I'm in favor of adding a bit more depth to the science skill, splitting it into at least a couple of separate disciplines.

As to permadeath, I'm going to strike that down simply out of necessity - it most definitely will not work in an MMORPG. The possibility of one powergaming bastard destroying a lot of players' hard work is too real and too damaging. So far the best idea I've heard is the above poster's cloning theory, but even that is stretching the nature of the pulp science genre a bit much.

Whew. So that's the beginning of the idea. For those of you who have slogged through this entire thing, I thank for your endurance.
 
Interesting reading :)

As I said, I think a Fallout mmorpg is very hard to make happen because the mmorpg environment adds a lot of features which make it hard to keep it fallout. It is hard, not impossible though.

I'd say that few things would need to be thought out before proceeding into the other ideas. In short, combat, game goals and character development are the key stuff that need to be decided before anything else can be thought of.

My athletic mind if a bit jammed atm. so I don't want to say anything more about it, for now :p...
 
As for splitting science skills, I propose some engineering skills - construcion, so players could build their own town and fortifications. Weapon and armor crafting is a must-have, perhaps some upgrades also? Like a scope or c-magazine. Getting good equipment should be a matter of finding proper materials and finding people that would craft it, not grinding. That means no Armor\Weapons NPC shops. Also, there should be scavange skills for this - people that could gather metal and other important materials from car wreckeges and such. Of course players could find an armor or a weapon during quests or get it from NPCs for doing one. Alcohol and drug production, which could be sold for cash\resources to NPC's in various towns (players would have no use from them anyway). Repair skill would be required in various situations, from maintaining equipment to bringing back to life some old generators and technology. For example, a typical fighter player finds an old Laser Rifle, but it's broke, so he needs another player with high repair skill to fix it.

Barter skill should dictate the prices players could set in their shops for their goods and prices they'd get from NPC merchants.

Steal skill shouldn't be implemented in my opinion, it'd spoil the game.

Outdoorsman could grant the player some bonuses, like a guy with high outdoorsman could find water and food in the wasteland and thus regenerate his health, or gain it from hunted animals, which he could also skin. He'd move faster in the wilderness and perhaps gain some some bonuses to attack against animal opponents.

As for charisma....perhaps a player with high charisma would grant allied player some attack bonus? And speech skill would allow the player to negotiate a higher reward for quest or grant access to some guarded facility.
 
I've decided, at least tentatively, that scavenging supplies and materials from ruins and fallen foes should fall under the category of Outdoorsman, because what else would we do with it?

This way, even the most dedicated Craft Boy (a new archetype!) will have to specialize. You could either make low-level guns, armor, drugs, etc., all on one person, or you could make the best armor but virtually no firearms. Splitting the crafting system across multiple skills like that makes for replay value and encourages diversification amongst the player base. I feel that there should be some sort of experience award, albeit a small one, for successful crafting, so that killing enemies is not the only way to gain levels. Repair might be generalized to "Mechanical" (to some extent in canon, it already is) and be used in the production of goods as well as their upkeep.

Let me give you an example of how this player-crafted economy would work.

Player A made a ghoul with tags on sneak, outdoorsman, and melee. The advantage of the ghoul is the ability to explore irradiated places that no other race can, and sneaking around avoiding hideous mutated beasts lets Player A scavenge a whole bunch of raw materials (outdoorsman affected the quality and quantity of ingredients). Unfortunately, Player A can't exactly do anything with them, as his science, repair, etc., skills are low. He might be able to fashion some crude leather armor or a combat knife, but that'd be about it.

But if Player A takes his materials to Player B, who is playing a Science Boy with tags on science (obviously), repair, and melee weapons (need to have a high skill with the weapon to create good ones, due to knowing the style, function, etc, of the particular group), player B might be able to build him a nice brutal Ripper.

If Player A takes his materials to Player C, who specialized in outdoorsman instead of melee, Player C might be able to build a nice suit of armor, even combat armor. Power armor should eventually be able to be constructed by players, but it should take a GREAT ordeal and plenty of time and effort to do so, and they should be so limited by materials as to be relatively rare. If you're the only guy on the server able to make power armor, you should be able to essentially name your price for it.

In this fashion, the most self-sufficient character might be one with tags on small guns, outdoorsman, and sneak. He could wander the wastes taking on prey he could handle and avoiding those he couldn't.

I can't help but think slightly in an MMORPG mindset when imagining skill combinations, so I'll jot down a few character archetypes for you, mostly drawn from other examples of the genre:

The "tank" - tags on outdoorsman (this may affect how protective your armor is, haven't quite decided), melee or unarmed, and speech (as I've mentioned before, speech affects your ability to draw the enemy's attention), high EN, ST, and CH

The "rogue" - tags on sneak, melee, and outdoorsman, wandering the wastes scavenging pre-war tech, very effective in close combat but relatively fragile.

The "doc" - tags on doctor and first aid, obviously, possibly speech as well, with high IN and CH. Could be your primary buffer/healer, though could be a bit of a combat hybrid if given an appropriate skill.

The "glass cannon" or "mage" - A science-type character with that tagged and energy weapons, with high IN and AG - energy weapons can be heavily damaging, but require high science skill in order to use properly. It's more than point and shoot, people. He can kill things quickly, but heaven forbid something turns its attention to him. Alternatively, this could be a supermutant with big guns, being less of a glass cannon, but the character would be rather one-dimensional and would not be able to accomplish much on its own. My feeling is that the supermutant with a minigun archetype would be popular amongst traditionalist MMO players, as it would be focused solely on combat effectiveness, but mutants will have restricted armor choices and not be allowed in certain areas of the game without high speech or sneak skills, which few would have.

The "grenadier" - well, typically there's at least one character class that employs area of effect attacks and/or crowd control, and the use of grenades could do that - tags on throwing, traps, sneak for more effective planting of mines and the like.

The "merchant" - tags on barter and repair will allow him to set up shop and charge for the upkeep of equipment. Having higher barter automatically set prices higher when trading is a bit arbitrary and goes against the freedom of the players to engage in economic activity on their own terms, but perhaps high barter would be a requirement to put something up for auction or to obtain a merchant's license. I think it should be perfectly viable for a player, if they choose, to never engage in combat at all, instead building a financial empire or becoming a scientific genius cooped up in a lab. It just so happens that combat might be a little quicker, a little easier.

Ideally, every character should have some combat skill at least partially developed, unless they're extremely dedicated to pacifism. I want to see great specialization, though. I want a town flourishing with ghoulish scientists and supermutant enforcers, human doctors and the inevitable outpouring of warriors of all color, creed, and level of irradiation. Most of all, I would want people to have fun playing it in whatever way they'd have the most fun. The twitch gamers and MMO addicts could go out and grind the wasteland should they so choose (most likely running out of ammunition or having their gun jam, ensuring a dependence on other players), and the more RP oriented players can hang out in town, build factions and guilds, perhaps start caravans and merchant consortiums.

And, of course, if a group of players wants to form a camp of raiders, why not? The more law-abiding citizens may put together a posse to wipe them out now and then, but that just forms what I like to call "motivated PvP" which is far superior to generic, arbitrary "I'm going to gank you because I can" PvP.

Still at a loss as to what to do with steal and gambling, but at least outdoorsman and barter have more use now.

ADDENDUM:

A quick rundown of how stats would matter in game:

Strength: melee damage, carry weight. Relatively unchanged.

Perception: range modifiers, increased chance to detect sneakers, notice traps. Might affect ranged damage as well. Mainly unchanged.

Endurance: HP, resistances.

Charisma: The main changed element. Charisma requirements for certain quests, requiring parties to recruit "leaders" to tackle bigger challenges, makes warriors more intimidating, better prices from NPC stores (also a function of barter), better reactions from NPC factions (think of WoW's reputation grind, but more akin to Tactics' rank system - higher CH players will be able to put in less work to access higher level equipment and supplies from merchants)

Intelligence: Skill points - a character with high IN could be an effective jack-of-all-trades or an extremely effective Craft Boy.

Agility: In real-time, this should control the regeneration rate of AP as well as the maximum amount. With 1 AG, you might get AP at a rate of one every two seconds, allowing you to fire every ten seconds, with 10 AG, you would get perhaps 3 or 4 AP in the same span. Let's say about a half-second reduction in attack cooldown for each point, for the sake of argument. Starting at, oh eight. At 10 AG you're attacking every what, five seconds with a pistol, at 1, twice as slow. This would require extensive tweaking to balance correctly. Ten seconds would probably be too long between shots, unless you're using a sniper rifle and retraining your target. Two seconds for a rapid fire pistol might be too fast, I don't know.

Luck: Critical chance, but should incorporate other elements to avoid being a dump stat. Could affect the chance to find and scavenge materials (higher luck characters might find better items in trash piles and lockers), maybe a dodge bonus as well or a chance to reduce a critical to a normal hit. Penalties for lower luck should be dropped in favor of advantages for higher luck - I wouldn't want to overly penalize min-maxers, because they WILL. EXIST.
 
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