Iraq anyone? or North Korea?

WMD's

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,105086,00.html

I found this very interesting. I am still sceptical about this new information, but let's see how it turns out. Perhaps, this may finally lay to rest those who keep nagging to the United States, Great Britian, and the rest of the coalition in Iraq about WMD's.

Edit: The only problem with this is that he doesn't tell us where they are, or what happened to them. But, I suppose since they could only use them with Saddam's permission, they didn't know the location.
 
Sorry, King, but I'm not biting.

First, it comes through Fox news. And only Fox news. Let someone else, preferably NPR pick it up, and we'll talk.

Second, there is no way to verify that this guy is the one who said the 45 minutes thing, beyond his own, dubious, word.

Third, saying that the order must only come form Saddam is wrong. Its not like the Iraqis had some sort of briefcase with all the launch codes like Bush has. They were controlled by the ground commanders, who passed the word to the troops. Direct order implies that Saddam personally directed the launch, not through another person.

Fourth, if the rockets and their chemical warheads were in the direct hands of the infantry, where are the warheads? Shouldn't they have been confiscated by now? Used on US troops by Saddam loyalists?

Show me the Weapons! to misquote Jerry Maguire.

Or in this case, show me more proof if you want anyone to believe you.
 
Murdoch said:
Show me the Weapons! to misquote Jerry Maguire.

Ugh. Please don't do that again. -_-

Its bad enough that people have to use the correct phrase every Goddamn time they get the opportunity to without you making it more unbearable.
 
Hey, I wouldn't use it if it wasn't annoying and obnoxious! That's the whole point! :lol:

I really enjoy doing that over burger and beers with my buddies, to this same debate. Especially since a couple of them are diehard conservatives, not unlike King here.
 
I doubt even Ralph Nader could contain himself from throwing a hot cup of coffee in your face after that. =P
 
Doomed, or still recoverable?

Dec 4th 2003 | BAGHDAD, NAJAF, SAMARRA AND SAMAWA
From The Economist print edition


OK, here's a news update. Care of the Economist.

http://www.economist.com/world/africa/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=2265973

Iraq is on the edge. It is unclear, for America and its Iraqi allies, whether success or failure beckons. But progress towards peace and prosperity is still feasible, just

Get article background

IT DEPENDS whom you listen to. One top American soldier says that the battle this week in Samarra, a town of 180,000 at the heart of Iraq's sullen and violent “Sunni Triangle” to the north and west of Baghdad, marks a turning point—on the road towards military success for the ruling American-led coalition. The Americans say that 54 insurgents, some wearing the uniforms of Saddam Hussein's fedayeen militia, were killed after an American convoy was caught in a series of ambushes.

The ferocity with which the Americans returned fire shows, it is said, a new determination to hit back hard, rather than wait tamely while their enemies melt away into the maze-like alleyways of Iraq's small towns. If the success of this American counter-attack is emulated elsewhere, the insurgents would start to lose ground—and more Iraqis might start to co-operate with the coalition forces. As the trend spread, Iraq would gradually be brought to peace. That, at least, is the theory.

But locals offer a different version of what happened in Samarra. The Americans' figure of insurgent casualties, they say, is wildly exaggerated. And they insist that the resentment caused by the attack far outweighs any military gain. From his hospital bed, an 80-year-old sheikh who was caught in the crossfire wobbles his fist in fury. “If there were 1,000 fedayeen before, now there will be 3,500,” he wheezes. Even the town's American-paid police chief says that the Americans “provoked” a popular—and violent—reaction. Black “martyr” flags inscribed with the name of a ten-year-old boy killed in the fighting are pinned to walls across town that are covered with graffiti calling Iraqis to arms.

A pharmacist says that the town's women now stay dressed before going to bed, lest unbelievers on their night raids find them naked. The arrest last month of the wife of one of Saddam Hussein's vice-presidents appears to have enraged locals, who accuse America of adopting the tribal practice of taking relatives hostage. Several Samarrans claim to refuse American salaries. “We would rather chew dirt,” said a teacher. “Saddam Hussein is not orchestrating or financing our resistance,” said a major who lost his job when the Iraqi army was disbanded in May. “But he represents our flag.” In short, if Samarra is any guide, the Americans' latest tactics may well alienate many more Iraqis, especially the already disaffected Sunnis who ran the show under Mr Hussein.


Mother of all months
For the coalition, November was the worst month in terms of casualties—111 dead, including 79 Americans—since Mr Hussein was toppled. That is more than twice the rate in the early summer. It certainly makes the job of the civilians trying to oversee the economic and political rebuilding of Iraq immeasurably harder, if not impossible. Very few of the 1,200-odd people in the ruling Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) dare walk around Baghdad, getting to know the people and offering reassurance. Instead, they are cocooned in an array of grandiose buildings behind a massive web of concrete blocks, barricades and barbed wire in a so-called Green Zone which they rarely leave unescorted.

Baghdad itself continues to splutter back to commercial life, though the mayhem of traffic—no one seems to bother, for instance, if roundabouts are negotiated the wrong way round—suggests that barely suppressed lawlessness lies beneath the surface. As soon as darkness falls, few people drive or walk about. The silence of the night is punctuated by random bursts of gunfire. The capital's top three hotels have been hit by rockets or mortars in the past few months. Those who want to see the Americans fail, including, apparently, many in the Arab world beyond Iraq, were much chuffed last month when two separate attacks were launched, one on a hotel, the other on the oil ministry, from rickety donkey carts that had ambled towards the Green Zone—a potent symbol of how the highest-tech power in the world is still vulnerable to the anger of the little man.

The insurgents have made sure that not just Americans are frightened. They have targeted America's allies—Spaniards, Italians, Japanese, South Koreans. Do-gooding organisations, too, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross and most notably the United Nations itself, have been victims of murderous bomb attacks. Few charities have dared to stay.

Above all, the insurgents increasingly gun for fellow Iraqis who co-operate with the Americans and their allies. They attack Iraqi police stations. They have assassinated a (female) member of the Governing Council, the top Iraqi body appointed by the Americans, along with the deputy mayor of Baghdad, several judges, a top oil official and several senior policemen. Two top Shia clerics have been murdered; it is unclear by whom, but insurgents have certainly benefited from the resulting tension.

Hoping for chaos
The most likely perpetrators of this violence are former members of Mr Hussein's Baath Party, most but not all of them Sunni Muslims at odds with the emerging new Shia-led order. They aim, quite simply, to make the country ungovernable, so that the Americans will lose their nerve and pull out, leaving Iraq to sink into a welter of anarchy from which remnants of the old regime may re-emerge on top.

General John Abizeid, who oversees the American forces, reckons that the insurgents' hard core is only 5,000 strong, but the number of those willing to help them must be many times higher. Mr Hussein's 400,000-plus army, dissolved by the CPA, provides ample recruiting fodder, as do those senior-to-middling Baathists who were summarily sacked from their jobs or disappeared underground: the number, disputed, ranges from 20,000 to 40,000, out of a party of 2m.

The CPA has yet to discern a clear structure underpinning the insurgency, but it is probably a rough network with roots going far back to the early 1960s, when Mr Hussein and his friends formed an underground movement. Possibly, Mr Hussein himself is its organiser. Before the regime fell in April, says a member of the Governing Council, he arranged for nearly $1 billion in cash to be collected from the Central Bank, presumably to fund a guerrilla war.

The degree to which foreigners have joined the anti-American fray is debated too, but the suicide bombs that killed 22 UN people in August and 19 Italian soldiers last month had all the hallmarks of Muslim fundamentalists from outside, perhaps connected to al-Qaeda. A fair guess is that at least several hundred such zealots have crossed Iraq's utterly porous borders in the past few months, that they are ready to blow up themselves, Americans and their allies, for the cause, and that Mr Hussein's “former regime loyalists” (FRLs, in coalition-speak) have forged a marriage of convenience with them. There have also been reports of growing Islamic fundamentalism in Mosul, in the north, with al-Qaeda sympathisers slipping in from abroad and Wahhabi preachers from the Gulf and Syria stirring things up.

Yet the portrayal of November as the “worst month ever” needs a caveat. The death rate among the allies was certainly the highest since the conventional part of the war ended. But coalition generals say that the rate of attacks by guerrillas since the start, in mid-November, of Operation Iron Hammer and Operation Ivy Cyclone, both of which heralded a more aggressive approach (albeit one that risks more unpopularity), has dropped by nearly half.

What is clearer, in any event, is that the attacks preponderate in the Sunni Triangle between Habbaniya in the west, Baquba to the east of Baghdad and Tikrit in the upper middle, capped by the mixed Sunni Arab and Kurdish city of Mosul in the north. The area immediately to the west and north of Baghdad suffered 35% of all attacks last month (up from 186 recorded incidents in August to 313 in November), while the tally in the capital alone (up from 123 to 216) made up a quarter.

But the area controlled by the Kurds north and east of Mosul and the even bigger chunk of Iraq running from just south of Baghdad to the border with Kuwait are comparatively tranquil. Attacks around Basra and Nasiriya dropped from 27 in August to 14 last month; in the Shias' holy heartland around Najaf, Kerbala and Hilla, the rate steadied from 24 attacks in August to 25 in November. The Kurdish-controlled area and the Shias' in the south and centre, embracing well over half Iraq's population, now witness less than 6% of the violence against the coalition. Indeed, except for the carnage of Italians in Nasariya, not one coalition soldier was killed by insurgents in those two areas last month.

As cash pours in
Moreover, despite the impediments of sabotage and fear and the persistence of massive unemployment, which afflicts at least half the workforce of 7m, the economy is slowly on the mend. So it should be, given the massive amounts of aid—$18.6 billion—that the Americans have promised to dole out, along with pledges of another $14 billion or so from other outside sources. For many Iraqis, living standards have shot up. Labourers get double their pre-war wages, many other public-sector workers between four and ten times more.

Huge amounts of cash are being poured into rebuilding the infrastructure—sewerage, electricity, telecoms, the health service, railways, the port at Umm Qasr, and so on—and are slowly improving it, despite incompetence, cronyism and waste. The electricity supply, though still erratic, is back roughly to its pre-war level, after briefly surpassing it. Most important, oil production is heading for its pre-war level of 2m barrels a day, and is supposed to reach 2.8m b/d in April.

The key to the future, as far as both the economy and security are concerned, is political as much as military. Here too the picture is patchy but, on balance, hopeful. The Kurdish north, where American and British air power has guaranteed autonomy for 12 years, is in good political shape, with its two leaders, Jalal Talabani and Massoud Barzani, co-operating with each other—and, just as important, with their Shia compatriots in the centre and south.

Tensions still exist, however, especially in Mosul, where Sunni Arabs are about two-thirds of the population and Kurds a quarter, and in Kirkuk, which Kurds claim for themselves. The degree of federalism, the restitution of land and property sequestered by Mr Hussein's regime, the reversal of his Arabisation policy, and the demarcation of Kurdistan's borders are all delicate issues yet to be resolved. But the weightiest Kurdish leaders apparently accept that Kurds should have an autonomous region within a decentralised, federal Iraq, rather than outright independence, which would break up the country and might reignite a civil war.

The fractious Shias
The Shia south and centre are harder to pin down. Internal Shia politics are complex and riven with rivalries. Moreover, Shias themselves vary widely over how much they want a religiously oriented state. Most of those who live in the holiest city, Najaf, for instance, look to the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq, better known as SCIRI, led by Abdel Aziz al-Hakim, or to Ibrahim Jafari's Islamic Dawa Party. Both favour an Islamic state, though not an Iranian-style theocracy, and usually defer to Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani. A firebrand cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr, has a following too. Other, more secular Shias, such as Ahmad Chalabi, the Pentagon's favourite, who leads the Iraqi National Congress, and Iyad Alawi, of the Iraqi National Accord, seek Shia support—especially among the more liberal middle class—by appealing for a more western way.

Shia prayers may be answered

But the main man among Iraq's main religious group, the Shias, who probably embrace around 60% of the country's people, is the shadowy Mr Sistani. Since he rarely talks to outsiders, and has refused to meet the coalition's proconsul, Paul (“Jerry”) Bremer, agreements with him are hard to nail down.

His bottom line, however, is clear. Iraq's long-oppressed Shias must become the greatest power in the land. Iraq may have a pluralistic kind of federal democracy, with all groups, especially Kurds and Sunnis, represented in a broad government. The constitution will probably have to acknowledge that the Iraqi state has some kind of Muslim “character” or “identity”, with recognised rights for non-Muslims as well as non-Shias. But the Shias must have the main say.

Last month Mr Bremer heeded calls by Mr Sistani that the Americans' hitherto ponderous road towards the writing of a new constitution, involving a new census and the eventual holding of elections before untrammelled power is handed over to the Iraqis, should be abandoned in favour of a much faster route towards the restoration of Iraqi sovereignty and an end to the formal occupation (see timetable). Mr Bremer, egged on by the British, has since embarked on a much speedier course towards Iraqi-isation in virtually all spheres, including the army and police. The provisional government to take office in July would be chosen by a transitional assembly indirectly elected by “caucuses” in each of Iraq's 18 provinces, which themselves would be overseen by groups of notables, some from local councils, others chosen by the present American-appointed Governing Council.

More recently, however, a new glitch has occurred. Mr Sistani is demanding direct elections even to the transitional assembly. Registration of voters, say his proxies, could be based on the ration-card lists that existed under Mr Hussein. No, say the Americans. A set-piece election would be too vulnerable to disruption by the insurgents; the ration-card system excluded many families punished by the regime; and the Kurds had no such system. Besides, some of the non-Shias in the Governing Council are beginning to resent the veto powers of Mr Sistani, who is not, they note, even a native Iraqi (he speaks with a heavy Persian accent). In the end, a compromise may emerge. But the likelihood is that the politician closest to Mr Sistani—perhaps SCIRI's Mr Hakim—will probably become the country's new leader.

All this assumes that the insurgency is containable, even beatable. At least Mr Bremer's CPA and some of his generals see that politics, as much as military force, is the key. “There is no purely military solution,” says one adviser. “If we lose the Shias' consent, we'll lose the campaign,” says a senior soldier. “But we need the consent of the Sunnis to win the campaign.”

This is the trickiest part of any plan to salvage Iraq. The Sunni Arabs account for only 15-20% of Iraqis, but the new Iraq needs a post-Saddam leader for them. The Governing Council has half a dozen of them, but none with much clout. A further trouble is that, so long as the Sunni-based insurgency can cock a snook at the fragile political authority in Baghdad's fenced-off Green Zone, few Sunnis will have the nerve or the chance to go out among their people to preach conciliation.

A perilous handover
Meanwhile, the Iraqi-isation of security is a high-risk policy that could be knocked askew by infiltration, intimidation and over-hasty training. Indeed, the break-neck handover posited in the latest timetable could, if the insurgents make headway, descend into civil war. Sectarian feelings have been kept in check, thanks largely to the Shia and Kurdish leaders. But they are there, and they could explode.

The next six months are crucial. The violence, more noticeably Iraqi-versus-Iraqi, may well grow. It is vital for the would-be rulers that their American friends, whether as allies or occupiers, show not the slightest sign of wanting to cut and run.

In a gloomy scenario, the anti-American violence, inevitably catching more and more Iraqis in its train, sparks sectarian violence. The Americans give up hope, and beg the United Nations to come in and pick up the bits.

In a happier hypothesis, an emerging Iraqi leadership, with Shias and Kurds finding a tougher anti-Saddamite Sunni leader at their side, gradually faces down the insurgency—and reaps the benefit of American economic largesse and military firepower. It could yet happen. Iraq is still, just, a better-than-evens bet.
 
We haven't given up hope, and we're not begging the UN to come and help. We just wish they would. Other than that, I find those reports and that site pretty interesting. I like the way they present both sides. But I will still watch Fox News for a bit of patriotic news every-now-and-then.
 
Paladin Solo said:
I like the way they present both sides.

:roll:

This one little admission says alot, King. That you don't appear to consider both sides when making an argument explains many things about your posts.

Captain Obvious Says: "When making decisions about topics, such as Iraq, Medicare, or anything else of substance, it is important to consider both, or all, sides to an argument before reaching a conclusion."
 
Looks good to me. But how can we fight the insurgents without making more people pissed off?
 
Must we continue to single me and only me out every time? I said yes, I like the way they present both sides. So? How does that say that I don't consider both sides in an argument? Agh...every time I try and compliment something, I get the finger. Hmm...perhaps I should just point out the flaws in everything now? Maybe then I can hop on the bandwagon (sp) and be part of the group :). I point out one mistake, then say everything else is good and interesting, I get a reply saying I am close minded. C'mon Murdoch. Ok I admit, in some topics, I can be close minded, but I actually try not to. I am sure that everyone in here is close minded in a few topics. If you want, I just won't have an opinion on anything anymore ok?
 
Bradylama said:
Looks good to me. But how can we fight the insurgents without making more people pissed off?

Hmm...good point. But ask yourself this. How can we "not" fight any insurgents without letting harm come those we try and defend? In Iraq, we are trying to defend those that love freedom, and now that they have had a first taste of it, want to keep it.
 
Brady, I guess it depends on who you are worried about pissing off. I wouldn't worry about the people who are already attacking us; they've made up their mind. We could worry about the people in Iraq that may decide to start attacking us; but that limits our operations and decreases our effectiveness by having to tip-toe around the people that are trying to kill us. I would say that the only people we have cause to worry about is the rest of the world; whether they are with us in this, or they dont agree, or they dont agree and want to get freaky.
 
Paladin Solo said:
Must we continue to single me and only me out every time? I said yes, I like the way they present both sides. So? How does that say that I don't consider both sides in an argument? Agh...every time I try and compliment something, I get the finger. Hmm...perhaps I should just point out the flaws in everything now? Maybe then I can hop on the bandwagon (sp) and be part of the group :). I point out one mistake, then say everything else is good and interesting, I get a reply saying I am close minded. C'mon Murdoch. Ok I admit, in some topics, I can be close minded, but I actually try not to. I am sure that everyone in here is close minded in a few topics. If you want, I just won't have an opinion on anything anymore ok?

King: It is not my intention to single you out. But you must understand that it was you who posted the Fox News story about WMD's. It is you who proposed turning the US into a theocracy if you were president (IMO). Therefore you opened Pandora's box on your head, and you don't appear to comprehend the consequences.

It is also telling that you mention preseting both sides of an argument as a good thing. King, myself and most others (I assume) on this forum with whom you debate feel that presenting both sides of an argument is something that is given, and mentioning it as a reason to listen is not necessary. In fact, it seems downright insulting to the writer to question whether they are presented both sides.

NOTE: I did not call you insulting King, I simply said that your insinuation was unnecessary.

King, I enjoy debating with you, and do not wish you to mistrust me like you mistrust others on NMA (with good reason I might add). I do not enjoy debating with you because you make good arguments though. Rather, I enjoy debating with you because of my wish that one day you will learn how to debate properly, and we can then have real, intellectual conversations that leave us both a little more informed and intelligent.

If I did not care, I would not even respond to you. There are plenty of peple who I do that to, and you are not one of them, since I think you have potential.

I will continue to poke holes in your theories and plans for the world as long as I think you are worth it. I do it to make you better, not to make myself feel superior.

If you feel like talking or telling me to fuck off, feel free to PM me.
 
Back to this topic-

What do you all think about the future of Iraq? How has Saddam's capture changed things?

Iraq after Saddam's capture

After the euphoria

Dec 18th 2003 | BAGHDAD
From The Economist print edition

The tyrant's arrest should make nation-building easier. But perhaps not much

AT A garage on the outskirts of Basra, peasants forgot the petrol queues and greeted the news of Saddam Hussein's capture with hugs and celebratory blasts of gunfire. In the city centre, greying communists threw candies through car windows. Students danced into the night. But hospitals reported fewer casualties than after the euphoric gun-pumping that followed the killing of Saddam's sons, Uday and Qusay, in July.

Why? Firstly, because Saddam Hussein is still alive. Iraq remains a vindictive place, and most would prefer him dead. “We are Muslims, we believe in the death penalty,” said Wael Abdel Latif, governor of Basra and a representative on the 25-member Governing Council. Others in his entourage wanted Mr Hussein hacked into tiny pieces, one for each of the Iraqis he had killed. “Saddam Hussein has left every family grieving for a relative who has disappeared or been crippled by torture,” said Said Hassanein, who runs the Basra mosque, from where the 1991 uprising against Mr Hussein began. “Death for the tyrant is the least of our demands.”

Secondly, since Iraq's media are freer these days, Iraqis can express themselves in other ways besides shooting bullets into the air. In Basra and Kurdistan, where there are now mobile-phone networks, many shot off text messages instead. With satellite television now widely available, many Iraqis chose to stay indoors and watch their bearded ex-despot being de-loused. Indeed, in a region rooted in the traditions of “occultation”—many believe that Jesus and the Shias' 12th imam have disappeared for a while, but will return—the rolling footage played a vital part in convincing doubters that Mr Hussein was actually in American hands.

Some Iraqis felt that the sight of Saddam looking so unkempt and submissive made those who had cowered in his shadow seem slightly pathetic, too. The tyrant who once had more palaces than some of his subjects owned chickens was found in a pit under a farmstead south-east of his hometown of Auja. American soldiers showed visiting reporters his underwear, the Bounty bars he snacked on, and the homemade sausages strung on the walls of his hut. “Were we really frightened of this?”, Iraqis asked.

After headlines dominated by rebel attacks, Saddam's capture has lifted coalition morale. Coalition leaders said they expected that the sight of the tyrant having his gums examined would reassure nervous Iraqis that he was not coming back, and so persuade them that it was safe to co-operate with the occupiers' nation-building plans.

The opposite is also possible, however. Many Iraqis threw in their lot with the coalition precisely because the Americans were carrying out the dangerous task of uprooting the remnants of the old regime. With Mr Hussein in custody, some may feel that the task is over, and that it is now time to throw out the Americans, too. Shias in the south, many of whom now look to ayatollahs for guidance, may feel emboldened to join the resistance.

Many Iraqi nationalists feel shamed that Mr Hussein was laid low, not by Iraqis, but by foreigners. “Had we done it [ourselves], we would have celebrated like Georgians, but instead it was all done by foreigners,” said Abu Haider, a Basra-based merchant whose land was confiscated by Mr Hussein.



It's not over yet
After hailing Mr Hussein's capture, George Bush said it would not necessarily lead to a reduction in attacks on American troops, nearly 200 of whom have died in combat since May. In the days that followed the capture, several bombs exploded in Baghdad, including one on December 17th that killed 17 people, say Iraqi police. This was not wholly unexpected—after Uday and Qusay were cornered and killed in Mosul, the violence in northern Iraq increased.

Coalition spokesmen in Baghdad continue to divide their violent opponents into two camps: former regime loyalists and itinerant jihadis. With Saddam Hussein behind bars and all but 14 of the 55 thugs featured on America's “deck of cards” killed or in custody, they say that the former are severely weakened. Officers of the unit that seized Mr Hussein said they had found documents in his briefcase containing the names of senior former Baathists who are apparently financing resistance cells in Baghdad. In the days that followed, American troops captured or killed dozens of suspected insurgents near the capital and in the town of Samarra.

Other officers speak of Mr Hussein as a symbol of the resistance, rather than its operational commander. He was captured, they note, with no communications equipment and only two guards. His sons apparently filched $1 billion from the central bank on the eve of Baghdad's fall. Mr Hussein was carrying only $750,000. No one knows where the rest is, or who controls it.

The Americans' top target in Iraq is now Mr Hussein's former vice-president, Ezzat Ibrahim, who they suspect of being the nexus between the Baath and the jihadis. Certainly, Mr Ibrahim has long-standing links with Sunni extremists, but he is stricken with cancer, and the manner of his master's capture may well have undermined any Baathist claim to resistance leadership. Jihadis are not impressed that the man who egged so many others to enter paradise surrendered without a shot.

All the same, Sunnis and Baathists who were once violent foes now have common cause. The areas where both predominate—the so-called Sunni triangle—are virtually unrepresented in Iraq's Interim Governing Council. Their hatred of American domination is matched by their fear that with Saddam gone, the Shia majority will grab all the power.

In and around the town of Tikrit, people remain fervently loyal to the man they still refer to as “the president, may God Preserve Him”. Some blame Jamal, the husband of Saddam Hussein's daughter, Hala, for betraying him to the Americans, and claim to have killed the traitor the following morning. Mr Hussein treated his home town rather better than the rest of the country: electricity was never cut, and Tikriti farms were always well irrigated.

Now the tables have turned in Tikrit. Houses are dark at night, petrol queues snake over the horizon, rations are short and most of the local breadwinners, who held senior positions in the security forces, intelligence and the Baath party, are jobless. At a gathering of notables after evening prayers, the faithful vow to fast from dawn to dusk until Mr Hussein is released. A local teacher says he refuses to use the new syllabus, from which the sayings of Mr Hussein have been cut, and encourages his pupils to wave placards showing Mr Hussein's face, and to stone American troops.

Mr Hussein has little chance of escaping justice (see article), but he may believe he can strike a bargain by revealing what he has done with his weapons of mass destruction, if he still has any. He may have had this in mind when he emerged from his hole with the words: “I'm the president of Iraq. And I'm willing to negotiate.” Then again, he may just have been anxious to avoid being shot.

Some officials of the American-led Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) have already begun playing down expectations of what Mr Hussein might reveal. His mental condition has suffered from his months underground, they say, and he may be incapable of remembering the last known whereabouts of the weapons. Others emphasize that American law does not allow for the forceful methods of extracting information that some governments in the region use.

Iraq's Governing Council is braying for a trial in weeks, not months, and seeking assurances that Iraqis will finally determine the fate of their rulers. Drawing up a charge-sheet for a lifetime of crimes could take longer than this, but when the trial eventually gets under way, it could cause consternation in several Arab states. Those who for years dealt closely with Mr Hussein's regime might be embarrassed by courtroom revelations. So might his western trading partners. Moreover, the spectacle of an Arab court putting an Arab leader on trial would send shivers down the necks of Mr Hussein's regional counterparts. What if their own citizens copied Iraq's example?

For Iraqis, putting Saddam on trial may prove cathartic, but it will not turn on the lights. Under Anglo-American rule, many aspects of everyday life are getting worse. For all the talk of reconstruction, such basics as petrol, electricity, security, medicines and food remain in short supply.

The economic situation could improve: Germany and France promised America this week that they would forgive some of Iraq's foreign debt, which should help. But after a generation of centralised tyranny and sanctions, Iraqis are deeply dependent on the state to deliver. Many, perhaps the majority, are still ready to give the coalition the benefit of the doubt. But a large number firmly believe they could do the job better. With luck, they will find out quite soon.
 
moral

Ok, so is there a moral to the story of Saddam Hussein? Is it too early to tell?
Also, what can this tell us about the future Saddam Husseins?

Iraq

The moral of Saddam Hussein

Dec 18th 2003
From The Economist print edition


Nobody emerges with much credit from the saga of Iraq. The future may be more hopeful

IT WAS a heartening way to end a bloody year. The sight of a murderous dictator being plucked like a rat from a hole in the ground offered a rare and pleasing spectacle of virtue armed and evil vanquished. But if the tyrant's capture is a cause for celebration, it should also prompt a moment's sober reflection. As will probably become clear when he is eventually put on trial (see article), few people or governments, in the West, the Arab world or beyond, emerge with credit from Saddam Hussein's long and sorry saga of misrule.

Saddam was no creature of the West. It was the Soviet Union that armed him to the hilt. But the bloody coup that brought the Baathists to power in 1963 may (the historians are still in the dark) have had some help from the CIA. When he invaded Iran, starting a war that lasted for most of the 1980s and may have consumed as many as a million lives, many outsiders found it convenient to use him. The West came to see him as a bulwark against the threat Ayatollah Khomeini posed to the Arab states and their oil. The French sold him aircraft and missiles, and the Americans fed him battlefield intelligence.

Arabs today castigate America for having aided the man it nowadays calls a monster. This proves American hypocrisy, they say. But Arab regimes bankrolled his war against Iran, and Arab masses cheered him on. In 1988, when the American State Department called his use of chemical weapons against the Kurds “abhorrent and unjustifiable”, the Arab League leapt to his defence. Before he invaded Kuwait in 1990, millions of Arabs—not just the regimes but the people too—were thrilled by his promise to destroy “half of Israel” with chemical fire. Some Arabs, including Yasser Arafat, continued to applaud even after he grabbed Kuwait. In 1991, Palestinians climbed on to their rooftops to cheer the Scud missiles falling on Tel Aviv.



One dynasty's defective victories
The Bush family became Saddam's nemesis. But the record of the Bushes, senior and junior, is mixed. In 1990, the first President Bush handled Iraq's invasion of Kuwait with exemplary skill. He spent five months assembling a grand alliance, then commanded a swift war with the authority of a united Security Council. It is fashionable now to criticise him for not going on to Baghdad to finish Saddam off, but this is the wisdom of hindsight. At the time, many voices (including The Economist's) urged Mr Bush not to exceed his UN mandate, which was only to rescue Kuwait. He (and we) reckoned there was a good chance that a humbled Saddam would fall anyway. Sending an American army to conquer a great Arab capital did not look like a splendid idea. But that honest mistake was tainted by what happened next. Mr Bush called on Iraqis to rise up, only to turn away when those who did were slaughtered in a bloodbath America could have halted.

History will record that Bush the younger, basking at present in the dictator's capture, has collected his own store of failure to set against the triumphs. He too conducted a swift war. But his pre-war diplomacy was less deft than his father's and his planning for the post-war occupation rudimentary. America went to war on what appears now to have been weak or false intelligence, which the Bush team exaggerated, about Saddam's forbidden weapons. In fact, the case for war did not have to be stretched this way. Saddam was a serial aggressor who had refused for more than a decade to prove beyond doubt that he had disarmed in accordance with the ceasefire that followed his expulsion from Kuwait.

Mr Bush has made matters worse by continuing to portray Iraq as part and parcel of the war against al-Qaeda. Although this simplification may play in Peoria (not to mention in the presidential election), it is wrong. Yes, Saddam terrorised his people and his neighbours. But to lump all America's enemies together as “terrorists” is to play with words and, worse, to risk making a muddle of policy. Osama bin Laden is a religious fanatic with an apocalyptic vision of permanent Islamic war against the infidel. Saddam is a secular Arab nationalist who had a rational if reckless dream of acquiring super-weapons and dominating the world's oil reserves. Saddam had to be stopped, but his defeat has not necessarily hastened the defeat of al-Qaeda, and might even make victory harder if it continues to stoke up Muslim rage against the West.



Another's utter defeat
Will America's occupation of Iraq continue to inflame Muslims? Perhaps it will, but it is needlessly despairing to say that it must. At the least, Saddam's capture, coming after the killing of his sons, Uday and Qusay, ought to convince Iraqis that the old regime will never return and that they must prepare for a different future. Mr Bush hopes that this will “change the equation” on the ground, and so it may. A spike of violence following the arrest shows that plenty of Iraqis remain willing, in the name of Islam, Arabism or something else, to fight the occupier. Even so, many more seem content in the absence of any plausible alternative to give a chance to the interim administration the Americans are putting into place.

What happens next will not be shaped by the Americans alone. Much also depends on what Iraq itself is capable of. Thanks to the long reign of Mr Hussein, nobody really knows what that may be. It is far from certain that it can even remain one country, let alone grow into the sort of liberal democracy the Americans hope to make of it.

Iraq is one of the awkwarder creations of colonialism. Its sense of nationhood, never strong, has been bent out of shape by the way Saddam fostered it. He tortured and killed in order to rule, giving privileges to the Sunni minority, gassing the Kurds and persecuting the Shia majority. At the same time, he stripped the country of political institutions. The ruling party existed in order to shore up the ruler's cult of personality. The parliament became a cipher; the army was divided against itself in order to ward off coups. It is no accident that no prominent Iraqi soldier or politician has been able since the war to mobilise the support of Iraqis as a whole: Saddam made a point of murdering anyone with the potential to do so. And this is the wreckage upon which America now proposes to erect a beacon of hope for the other Arabs. Why expect the first Arab democracy to arise in Iraq, of all places?

The answer is simple. Accident. Democracy has a chance in Iraq because the repeated miscalculations of its dictator resulted in his forcible removal by a superpower which, unlike the departing imperialists of the 20th century, dares not impose any other system. The Americans may not succeed, but now that they are there they are duty-bound to try.

The task is not hopeless. Throughout the Arab world, it has suited unelected leaders to blame the absence of democracy on the deep structure of their societies, or on the interference of outsiders, or on the complications of Islam. But it might be simpler than that. When given the chance, Arabs have had little difficulty working out what elections are about. What has held democracy at bay is the refusal of their rulers to risk losing power. Such rulers say now that democracy cannot work in Iraq because they do not want it in their own countries.

In Iraq itself, the foreign occupiers, being foreign occupiers, are not popular. And yet few voices, even among the Shia clerics, are raised against the idea of democracy. It will take time, no doubt, to create one. But after the horrors of Saddam, why should Iraq's people put up with anything less?
 
news from North Korea-

North Korea

Another bombshell?

Jan 8th 2004
From The Economist print edition


Diplomacy and threats

IF YOU can't beat them, blame them for the breakdown. That is the game being played out between America and North Korea in efforts to end the crisis over North Korea's nuclear ambitions. This week, amid reports that the six-way talks (also involving South Korea, Japan, China and Russia) were likely to be put off again to next month or beyond, North Korea announced a “bold” concession: as well as freezing its production and testing of nuclear weapons, it will shut down its nuclear reactors even for power generation (though that is something they are not actually equipped to do), in return for a non-aggression pact with America, and much else.

America's Colin Powell called the proposal “interesting”, but is unlikely to jump at it. America wants to talk to North Korea about how it might dismantle both its plutonium production and the uranium-enrichment programme whose belated discovery sparked the latest crisis over a year ago. Only then will America put in writing George Bush's repeated assurance that he has no intention of invading North Korea. Yet North Korea, for its part, now denies that it has a uranium-enrichment programme, even though equipment designed for one has been found on ships heading there.

The gap between the two sides may become clearer after an unsanctioned five-man delegation returns from North Korea this week. The group includes Sig Hecker, a former director of the Los Alamos National Laboratory, and Charles Pritchard, a former State Department pointman for North Korea who has been sharply critical of the Bush administration's Korean tactics since he left his diplomatic post last year.

Is the invitation to the group a sign that North Korea is in conciliatory mood, or the opposite? One theory, says Gary Samore, of the International Institute for Strategic Studies, is that North Korea may want to show that, contrary to previous bluster, it has not yet extracted bomb-useable plutonium from all the spent fuel-rods at its nuclear facility at Yongbyon—but would if pushed. Another theory that better fits its recent pattern of threats, says Mr Samore, is that North Korea may use the presence of Mr Hecker and others to show off the raw plutonium it has said it produced. If America buys into a freeze, the stuff can be monitored. But if America doesn't...
 
Can Iraq become a democracy?

Not likely any time soon.

As with Afghanistan, the large number of factions already causes conflict, while other Arab nations try to destabilize Iraq to damage America and maintain their own power. Many developing world people not only don't want democracy, they don't understand it even if they want it. They need to slowly develop a sense of freedom and equality in a stable political atmosphere so they can go toward first world status.

Just say we did have world peace, democracy everywhere and a sense of the right to have a good standard of living. The world’s resources would be stretched to breaking point and the Yanks would have to lose their wasteful lifestyle (as would the rest of the world boo hoo). No more cheap labour and true free trade would result in America going suicide bomber style and nuking everything to maintain power. However, this is based on the premise that American foreign policy never changes (hasn’t so far) and the world becomes a paradise (before it gets nuked in a few hours of course).

America never learns from its mistakes in foreign policy and always just tries to look after number 1 without taking the rest of the world into account. They install puppet dictatorships and try to create power balances that keep countries weak while looking after their own interests. They are only giving reconstruction contracts to nations that sent military support in Iraq (e.g. no good German engineers aloud) and just want to keep the oil safe. Even the Japanese have sent troops helped by this, the need for US support and because like many politicians, their leadership still thinks the old ‘invade someone when the polls are down’ trick will keep them in power (Thatcher in Falklands, Blair in war against terror and even John Howard in Australia who maintains power by kicking illegal immigrants and ‘saving’ East Timor, even though we let the Indonesians walk in their and West Papua in the first place. Yes of course it isn’t just the Yanks who are selfish bastards. We Aussies have grabbed East Timor’s natural gas supply for as long as possible and only helped East Papua for strategic and economic reasons such as exploiting their considerable natural resources. But if the US want to the policemen of the world (Bush called Howard deputy sheriff in the Asia Pacific region ha, ha), they have to remain impartial and help the third world, even though it will hurt them to do so. Because they wont, they will not try to help democracy emerge in Iraq. The large Kurdish population in Turkey also causes a great problem in that Turkey wont let Kurdistan have its independence fearing destabilisation (unless EU membership, which they will never get at this rate curbs their opposition). Look at what a great success Afghanistan has been in creating a new nation (although its dust a barren rock) and we can see how hard America wants to help the world.
 
quietfanatic said:
Can Iraq become a democracy?

Not likely any time soon.

As with Afghanistan, the large number of factions already causes conflict, while other Arab nations try to destabilize Iraq to damage America and maintain their own power. Many developing world people not only don't want democracy, they don't understand it even if they want it. They need to slowly develop a sense of freedom and equality in a stable political atmosphere so they can go toward first world status.


Actually, Afghanistan has their constitution now. So yes, it is likely, and perhaps soon, maybe within the next six months even.



quietfanatic said:
Just say we did have world peace, democracy everywhere and a sense of the right to have a good standard of living. The world’s resources would be stretched to breaking point and the Yanks would have to lose their wasteful lifestyle (as would the rest of the world boo hoo). No more cheap labour and true free trade would result in America going suicide bomber style and nuking everything to maintain power. However, this is based on the premise that American foreign policy never changes (hasn’t so far) and the world becomes a paradise (before it gets nuked in a few hours of course).


Are you saying you want a nuclear war?



quietfanatic said:
America never learns from its mistakes in foreign policy and always just tries to look after number 1 without taking the rest of the world into account.


Dude, study history more often. Ever hear of Somalia?


quietfanatic said:
They install puppet dictatorships and try to create power balances that keep countries weak while looking after their own interests.


We install dictatorships? Are you retarded?


quietfanatic said:
They are only giving reconstruction contracts to nations that sent military support in Iraq (e.g. no good German engineers aloud) and just want to keep the oil safe.


Riiight, like they wouldn't do the same. Let's let the people who actually supplied Saddam against us and bashed the coalition and hoped for our failure get a piece of the pie? I repeat my question...are you retarded?


quietfanatic said:
But if the US want to the policemen of the world (Bush called Howard deputy sheriff in the Asia Pacific region ha, ha), they have to remain impartial and help the third world, even though it will hurt them to do so.


Like I said, study up on history, read up on Somalia.
 
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