Iraq is now a Soverign Nation

[Ratty Sr.]

Arrrgh Baltic countries poor, organized crime living on economical misery.

GDP per capita in Estonia - $10,900 and rising fast. Hardly strikes me as a mafia-run state living on the brink of poverty. For your information, that's greater GDP than Ireland, Spain and Greece had in 1991, and twice as much as Portugal had in that year (and all four countries were already members of EU at that time). Ireland, for example, is nowadays the eighth richest country in the world, and by far the richest member of the European Union (Well, except for Luxembourg - but seriously, is that even a country? ). Do these numbers give you some idea about how stupid your remark on poverty of Baltic countries is?

 

[Brother None]

GDP per capita in Estonia - $10,900 and rising fast.

12,300 per capita with a healthy real growth rate of 4.8%, according to the CIA world factbook.

That's not super-duper high, tho'

Hardly strikes me as a mafia-run state living on the brink of poverty.

The GDP says little of its status as either poverty-stricken state or a maffia-run state

For your information, that's greater GDP than Ireland, Spain and Greece had in 1991, and twice as much as Portugal had in that year (and all four countries were already members of EU at that time). Ireland, for example, is nowadays the eighth richest country in the world, and by far the richest member of the European Union (Well, except for Luxembourg - but seriously, is that even a country? ). Do these numbers give you some idea about how stupid your remark on poverty of Baltic countries is?

All above-named countries have a greater GDP per capita than Estonia now, yes.

Ireland is below Luxembourg, Denmark and Austria in GDP per capita, tho'

Oh, and how can you call Estonia a country and Luxembourg not a country. They're all silly small farts

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Seems your information is more up-to-date than mine. Oh, well. Another thing worth noting is that Estonia is the country with best WLAN coverage in the world. Almost every square inch of Estonia has WLAN signal. Fuck mafia, I want to go live there!

 

[Hellion]

In regards to Turkey joining the EU (a thing that I pray to all gods NEVER happens, for my own personal reasons), analyzers have presented another problem that nobody actually mentions. It is estimated that by 2020 Turkey's population will be over 80,000,000 people. Now, assuming Turkey DOES join up, it is 99% probable that more than 60,000,000 Turks will immigrate to other EU countries (especially Germany, which already houses quite a large number of Turks) to find better life conditions than the awful ones they have in Turkey, making Europe virtually "Turkish-occupied" and causing several other social problems that you can imagine.

French and German leaders have stated that negotiations for Turkey's admisssion into the EU MIGHT begin in 2018. That says it all, I think...Not all European leaders are keen on letting into the EU what French leaders accurately refered to as "the USA's bi@tch" (excuse the l33t) during an EU meeting in 2002

Europe was created by the joining of 3 civilizations: Greek, Roman and Christian. Does Turkey identify with at least one of these civilizations (other than the fact that they happen to have conquered areas where Greeks flourished during their history)?

 

[victor]

Exactly Big T. Also, I'm not trying to tell you that you should unite with Canada, eh?

And maybe Turkey used to be Europe, but no longer. Not since the Byzantine empire collapsed.

I'm not definitely against Europe in the Union, just not right now. They have an infinitely long way to go first. And they had the death penalty until what, last year? A bit too early to love them, maybe.

It's bigger than Bulgaria, and probably has more economic potential, and Croatia has had ceaseless war for the past century. Maybe YOU don't realize that economic growth isn't equal to a wealthy population? Just look at Saudi Arabia. Population growth isn't necessarily a good thing.

Bush wouldn't outsmart a cricket. Bat. Don't flame me in the topic, Paladin Homo. Keep it to PMs if you need to tell me something.

 

[John Uskglass]

And maybe Turkey used to be Europe, but no longer. Not since the Byzantine empire collapsed.

Until 1920 it had enough "Europeans" to be considerd a part of Europe. Then it refomed itself in such an extent as to make it unrecognizable as a Muslim/MidEastern nation.

In regards to Turkey joining the EU (a thing that I pray to all gods NEVER happens, for my own personal reasons), analyzers have presented another problem that nobody actually mentions. It is estimated that by 2020 Turkey's population will be over 80,000,000 people. Now, assuming Turkey DOES join up, it is 99% probable that more than 60,000,000 Turks will immigrate to other EU countries (especially Germany, which already houses quite a large number of Turks) to find better life conditions than the awful ones they have in Turkey, making Europe virtually "Turkish-occupied" and causing several other social problems that you can imagine.

That's against every imagineable statistic. It sounds more like MHP proporganda then you would belive.

And the best way to curb Turkish immigration is to help Turkey develop as a nation, and it joining the EU would be a big help.

Europe was created by the joining of 3 civilizations: Greek, Roman and Christian. Does Turkey identify with at least one of these civilizations (other than the fact that they happen to have conquered areas where Greeks flourished during their history)?

So the Hungarains should'nt be in, cause thier Magyar?

It's culture is very influenced by Greek and Roman influene. These people are not Seljuks, they are Ottomans, they're the unique bleand of Arabic, Persian, Turkish, Slavonic and Byzantine elements that made that empire what it was.

Not to mention that they are now as European politically as any place on earth.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

And maybe Turkey used to be Europe, but no longer. Not since the Byzantine empire collapsed.

As CCR pointed out, Turkey is no less a European country than Hungary or Finland. When it comes to international integrations, ethnic and cultural origins are of little relevance. Economic and democratic achievements are what counts, and in these areas Turkey has made tremendous progress.

I'm not definitely against Europe in the Union, just not right now. They have an infinitely long way to go first. And they had the death penalty until what, last year? A bit too early to love them, maybe.

So what? USA still has death penalty. Does that automatically make it a totalitarian dictatorship? UK (you know, the country you live in) is one of few states in the world that doesn't have a constitution, but it's still a parliamentary democracy. My point is, just because a country has some ancient legal relicts doesn't necessarily say anything about the state of democracy and human rights in that country. As long as you don't get sentenced to death for jaywalking, I don't see what's the big deal.

Also, I don't know why you keep bringing up the state of Turkish prisons as some kind of a key argument. Big deal, UK has shitty schools and orphanages and from some stories I heard, I discerned they aren't much better than worst of Turkish correctional facilities.

It's bigger than Bulgaria, and probably has more economic potential, and Croatia has had ceaseless war for the past century.

Congratulations on showing that you are completely clueless. Croatian war lasted from 1991 to 1994, with a truce that (with occassional violations) lasted from 1992 to 1994.
A friendly piece of advice - next time you want to discuss a topic, do some research first. Pulling arguments and blatant lies out of your ass doesn't help your point, it only makes you look stupid.

Maybe YOU don't realize that economic growth isn't equal to a wealthy population? Just look at Saudi Arabia. Population growth isn't necessarily a good thing.

First you start off with stating that economic growth doesn't equal wealthy population (which is true in some cases, but not in those we are presently discussing - people of Estonia, Poland, Czech Republic and Hungary are quite well off, at least as wealthy as an average German and probably wealthier than most English in Tatcher era), then you pull Saudi Arabia out of your ass (beats me why, since that country is politically, ethnically, culturally and geographically as far from Europe as it gets), and then finally you state that population growth isn't always a good thing?! Just what have you been smoking?

You know that facetious statement in your avatar? Consider applying it to yourself.

Bush wouldn't outsmart a cricket. Bat.

Bush scored 1206 on his SAT, which is well above average and more than enough to get into any university in USA, got into Yale and graduated from there successfully, entered politics, became governor of Texas and later president of the richest, most powerful country in the world. Yeah, a real retarded dumbass. It's a wonder that he manages to breathe, let alone feed or speak.

I really don't understand by what merit you act high and mighty in regard to Bush. Judging by the intellectual level of your posts, I doubt you could graduate from a community college, let alone Yale.

 

[victor]

I don't see how my posts are less intellectual than your posts. You just don't get it, do you? I never said Saudi Arabia was Europe, and didn't even think of it like that, you simply missed my point. Saudi Arabia is a prime example of where the country in itself is rich, but the largest part of the population isn't. You can't blurt out the BNP of a country just like that. It has nothing to do with the wealth of the people. Just look at Brunei, for fucking out loud.

Excuse my previous comment. I meant to say the region around Croatia has been at war for a long time, until recently. Don't tell me that didn't have any influence.

Turkey has a LONG way to go. The only reason they changed is because they want to join the EU, it smells like fanboy-ism to me. Just give them a couple of decades, and they will be welcome. Thing is, Bush wants them to join NOW.

If you were "intellectual" as you seem to say you are, you would realize that grades don't mean that much. I've known dumbasses, yes, dumbasses, who got excellent grades. You can go far, very far, by memorizing lots of stuff without realizing what it's all about. Especially in tests where you basically just have to tick the right answer. Also, you think the son of one of the the richest and most successful inhabitants of Texas is going to get bad grades? A little naive to think that, mebbe. Wake up and smell the corruption.


And if you want to go by grades and such, then I have to be one of the smartest people on the planet. I got the MAXIMUM score on my high school finals for fuck's sake.

And no, I don't live in the UK. And Thatcher was a long time ago, even though that bitch left her marks.

*edit* I'm growing tired of this discussion, so don't bother replying to this post. See it as final. Continue with the topic instead.

 

[welsh]

Bush's SAT scores of 1206 don't make him a genius either. I had a friend who took the SATs on acid and got a 1500. That's a freaking genius (and in fact was one of the smarter kids of my graduating class - when he wasn't totally stoned).

That said, there's a lot of prep that can be done for an SAT score.

Looking at http://www.colleges.com

Top two private Universities-

Harvard's SAT scores at the 50th percentile ranking
50th percentile for the SAT - Math scores: 690 - 790
50th percentile for the SAT - Verbal scores: 700 - 790

Yale- (Where Bush got in)
50th percentile for the SAT - Math scores: 680 - 760
50th percentile for the SAT - Verbal scores: 680 - 780
(Note based on these scores, it was more than SAT scores that got Bush into Yale)

Top two public universities-
University of Virginia-
50th percentile for the SAT scores: 1220 - 1400
50th percentile for the SAT - Math scores: 610 - 710
50th percentile for the SAT - Verbal scores: 600 - 700
(Bush might have squeaked in)

University of California Berkeley
SAT scores
50th percentile for the SAT - Math scores: 630 - 740
50th percentile for the SAT - Verbal scores: 600 - 710

But Bush could have made it to the University of Texas, Austin- except he was born, raised and went to school in New Haven, Conn.

University of Texas- Austin-
50th percentile for the SAT scores: 1090 - 1310
50th percentile for the SAT - Math scores: 560 - 670
50th percentile for the SAT - Verbal scores: 530 - 640

 

[John Uskglass]

I don't see how my posts are less intellectual than your posts. You just don't get it, do you? I never said Saudi Arabia was Europe,

I personally would. I think people have been setting the limits to what is "European" and what is not to suit thier own rascist agenda for a millinea, and I would argue that Europe, from an ethnological perspective, from a linguisitic perspective, from a religious perspective and from a cultural perspective can goes all the way from Ethiopia to Norway to the borders with Burma. The Semetic, Altaic and Indo-European peoples are, IMHO, so mixed up as to be considerd one big continent, like Asia.

Saudi Arabia is a prime example of where the country in itself is rich, but the largest part of the population isn't.

Turkey is'nt anything like that. It's not an oil country, nor does it have a monarchy, there are no real wealth descrepencies like in SA.

Bush's SAT scores of 1206 don't make him a genius either. I had a friend who took the SATs on acid and got a 1500. That's a freaking genius (and in fact was one of the smarter kids of my graduating class - when he wasn't totally stoned).

That said, there's a lot of prep that can be done for an SAT score.

Looking at http://www.colleges.com

Top two private Universities-

Harvard's SAT scores at the 50th percentile ranking
50th percentile for the SAT - Math scores: 690 - 790
50th percentile for the SAT - Verbal scores: 700 - 790

Yale- (Where Bush got in)
50th percentile for the SAT - Math scores: 680 - 760
50th percentile for the SAT - Verbal scores: 680 - 780
(Note based on these scores, it was more than SAT scores that got Bush into Yale)

Top two public universities-
University of Virginia-
50th percentile for the SAT scores: 1220 - 1400
50th percentile for the SAT - Math scores: 610 - 710
50th percentile for the SAT - Verbal scores: 600 - 700
(Bush might have squeaked in)

University of California Berkeley
SAT scores
50th percentile for the SAT - Math scores: 630 - 740
50th percentile for the SAT - Verbal scores: 600 - 710

But Bush could have made it to the University of Texas, Austin- except he was born, raised and went to school in New Haven, Conn.

University of Texas- Austin-
50th percentile for the SAT scores: 1090 - 1310
50th percentile for the SAT - Math scores: 560 - 670
50th percentile for the SAT - Verbal scores: 530 - 640

Grades, IMHO, are totally meaningless. Kubrick took night classes at NYU, Eienstien barley made it in, I don't get good grades.......

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Grades, IMHO, are totally meaningless. Kubrick took night classes at NYU, Eienstien barley made it in, I don't get good grades.......

So you place yourself in the league with Kubrick and Einstein? How humble of you.

 

[Brother None]

Grades, IMHO, are totally meaningless. Kubrick took night classes at NYU, Eienstien barley made it in, I don't get good grades.......

That last bit doesn't really support your argument

Your argument would be that as grades make mistakes, they are inherently useless? Wrong. Yes, the grade-system is flawed, yes it is a good indication of people's skill, intelligence and perseverence in areas. Not always right, but generally...yeh

 

[John Uskglass]

Grades, IMHO, are totally meaningless. Kubrick took night classes at NYU, Eienstien barley made it in, I don't get good grades.......

So you place yourself in the league with Kubrick and Einstein? How humble of you.

Actually, I meant it to be somewhat self-depricating, but generally I don't think anything in school before University can be considerd any kind of standard on weather a person is intellegent or not.

Your argument would be that as grades make mistakes, they are inherently useless? Wrong. Yes, the grade-system is flawed, yes it is a good indication of people's skill, intelligence and perseverence in areas. Not always right, but generally...yeh

Depends on the definition of "generally". More then half the time, yes. A signifigant amount of the time, not at all.

 

[Big T]

More then half the time, yes. A signifigant amount of the time, not at all.

I would say that half the time was significant.
The problem with grades is that students learn how to pass their exams, not how to be knowledgable in a subject. Their teachers know what is needed to pass an exam, and teach accordingly. At least, that's what happens here.
Grades are the only way to judge somebody's skill/knowledge with a subject (if not their general intelligence), the problem is how grades are given. The right balance needs to be found between exams, course work, practical work (if applicable) and the teacher's view on the student's competence. I don't, however, know how the American SAT system works.

Isn't this thread about Iraq? Not education.
I doubt that Bush is a dumb as his detractors allege, but the same would probably go for his supporters' claims.

 

[Paladin Solo]

Baboon, why do you argue inteligence, when you're calling me Paladin Homo? Yeah, not only are you so original, but inteligent too.

Again, you say Bush couldn't outsmart a cricket...how is that an inteligent remark as well? And where did I flame you?

Well...I wonder how many Euros are seeing this Iraq Soveriegnty thing in their news? I checked out Fox, and they said most Arab, and some Euro news orgs are censoring that bit of info. Well...let's see if they're correct on this.

 

[Big T]

Well...I wonder how many Euros are seeing this Iraq Soveriegnty thing in their news? I checked out Fox, and they said most Arab, and some Euro news orgs are censoring that bit of info. Well...let's see if they're correct on this.

It's not censored in the British news.
Judging from what I see online, there's no real censorship of our news. Unless "they" are censoring my net connection.

 

[John Uskglass]

Chirac attempts to grow genitals, stomp all over German prerogative to rule EU.

Chirac Attacks Bush's Support for Turkish EU Bid

Mon Jun 28,12:58 PM ET Add World - Reuters to My Yahoo!

ISTANBUL (Reuters) - French President Jacques Chirac told President Bush (news - web sites) to mind his own business Monday after Bush called on the European Union (news - web sites) to fix a date for Turkey to start EU entry talks.

The strongly worded attack came at a NATO (news - web sites) summit in Istanbul that was intended to bury discord within the alliance over the U.S.-led war in Iraq (news - web sites), which France vehemently opposed.

"If President Bush really said that the way I read it, well, not only did he go too far but he went into a domain which is not his own," Chirac told reporters at the summit.

"It is like me trying to tell the United States how it should manage its relations with Mexico," he added. (emphasis added)

Meeting Turkish leaders ahead of the NATO summit, Bush hailed Turkey as the alliance's only Muslim member and said it should be rewarded with a firm start date for talks to join the European Union, a bloc it has been courting for decades.

The White House refused to back down after Chirac's remarks, pointing out that U.S. policy on Turkey's possible accession to the EU was "well known and long standing."

"We've made our views well known in public concerning the EU and Turkey," said a White House official.

EU leaders are not due to decide on whether to open accession talks with Ankara until the end of the year after assessing its progress in human rights and other fields.

Even if the 25-member bloc decides to start talks, France and other EU states have warned that negotiations are likely to be complicated and go on for years.

Chirac reaffirmed his recent remarks that he backed the principle of Turkey joining the EU when it fulfilled entry criteria, adding that Turkey had a "historic European vocation."

French and U.S. officials have been at pains to heal ties that were badly strained over the Iraq war, but major points of difference remain, with Paris notably reluctant to accept any significant role for NATO in Iraq.

 

[Brother None]

Well...I wonder how many Euros are seeing this Iraq Soveriegnty thing in their news? I checked out Fox, and they said most Arab, and some Euro news orgs are censoring that bit of info. Well...let's see if they're correct on this.

Dutch national news had it, as did the papers

Y'know, a news station in a nation with a very low score for pressfreedom accusing its betters of censorship is very droll.

Meeting Turkish leaders ahead of the NATO summit, Bush hailed Turkey as the alliance's only Muslim member and said it should be rewarded with a firm start date for talks to join the European Union, a bloc it has been courting for decades.

You don't see how Bush promising Turkey it can join an organisation on which Bush has no influence and over which Bush has no power is more of a problem than Europeans criticising your relations with Mexico?

You don't see us sayin "Mexico should be rewarded by being allowed to join the US"

Tchyeah.

 

[Jebus]

French President Jacques Chirac told President Bush to mind his own business Monday after Bush called on the European Union to fix a date for Turkey to start EU entry talks.

Heh... I actually yelled that at my TV screen.

Scared my dog, too.

 

[Sander]

Dutch national news had it, as did the papers

Y'know, a news station in a nation with a very low score for pressfreedom accusing its betters of censorship is very droll.

As did the BBC, and the Belgian news. Wow. Might Fox be bullshitting here? Nah....that'd be so untypical.