Israel-Palestinians situation
- Thread starter sunny jim
- Start date
Its the second time I'm beginning to write something in response to some of the things this guy wrote. Unfortunately a mixture of laziness and a great deal of not caring prevents me from finishing it.
one small notice, Ahmed Yassin was never a Hisbollah leader, he was an activist against the israeli occupation and was the spiritual leader of the Hamas organization.
he was released from the israeli prison in 1998 after he was kept there without a trial for 12 years.
It takes a great deal of skill to kill a 75 year handicaped person with a hellfire missile.
one small notice, Ahmed Yassin was never a Hisbollah leader, he was an activist against the israeli occupation and was the spiritual leader of the Hamas organization.
he was released from the israeli prison in 1998 after he was kept there without a trial for 12 years.
It takes a great deal of skill to kill a 75 year handicaped person with a hellfire missile.
Omg Snake shut the hell up already, you're a moron.Snake said:
Don't make dumb statements like that, Snake.
Youuuu guuuys haaaaaave nooooo sense of humour. None whatsoever.
I hate being talked to as if I'm a moron.
Really, I'm no moron, and I know what I'm talking about. I know all this, you fucking arrogant Israeli, no need to stomp it down my throat.
But you completely miss my point, and worse than that, you use a bunch of empty rhetoric to defend you rown.
With the palestinians.
"Fight fire with fire" a tried and stupid method.
Violence only breeds more violence, hate only breeds more breed, that's been my point in this thread, and you fail to see it.
Now I never said you should do anything like that, so don't try to pin such idiotic statements on me.
And I didn't say anything WAS wrong with that, now did I? What I AM saying is that there is something wrong with preventing others from living in the same place.
Bullshit. By not trying to co-operate and co-exist normally and peacefully with the peaceful Palestinians, you're only breeding more hatred and more violence and are actually CAUSING more of these attacks instead of stopping them.
Ugh. The terror is NOT in the core of their population, the terror is in a bunch of idiotic Islamo-fundamentalists and a huge load of pissed of mothers, fathers, brothers family etc. who lost their family members and friends due to Israeli attack.
Does this make these terrorist acts excusable, though? No.
You'd have to be schizofrenic to not think you're right in what you're saying. This doesn't make you rational or right, though.
n-o-t the opposite? What do you mean by that? If you mean that there isn't the opposite of terrorists, what the hell do you intend to prove by that? This makes no sense.
*sigh* You miss my point yet again.
I'll explain my point again:
The Israelis are isolating themselves from the rest of the world, including the Palestinians, with their actions. They are building a huge wall to protect themselves, which is their good right, but which also creates a lot of antipathy among the Palestinian population who want to work there and, basically, the rest of the world. The Israeli also kill civilians in their raids, purposefully or not, and they don't show regret or anything of that kind.
All these things only serve to create more hatred and more violence. You retaliate after a terrorist attack, which means you probably kill more civilians in the process, and create more potential terrorists.
What I would want to see is an Israel which helps the normal Palestinian people to build a decent existence for themseves, one that supports the current Palestinian government and gives it financial aid to help build a better world for these Palestinians. I'd like to see Israelis stop acting discriminatingly and violently towards Palestinians, and I'd like them to stop creating so much antipathy towards them. Because it's impossible for the Israelis to wipe out the terrorists and vice versa, they'll just continue to live in a perpetual state of war until one day a terrorist gets their hands on some chemical, biological or nuclear weapon, killing thousands of Israelis and thereby creating, undoubtedly, a wave of violence towards the Palestinians from the Israeli. The state you are in now can only bring more violent deaths instead of peace, but if the Israeli were to do everything possible to diminish the antipathy felt around the world against them, and especially amongst the Palestinians, then there is a chance that those terrorists will stop, and then there is a chance that peace will come around.
I don't see this happening ever, though, because both sides are, as you sadly demonstrate, bent on the total destruction of the other side, and will take along the rest of the world with them.
Member of Khans
Vault Dweller
The problem concerning this is that people (and media also) see things black & white...
There is no black'n'white in the world at all, there're only grey in different brightness...
*hmmppf* getting philosophic...
There is no black'n'white in the world at all, there're only grey in different brightness...
*hmmppf* getting philosophic...
Member of Khans said:The problem concerning this is that people (and media also) see things black & white...
There is no black'n'white in the world at all, there're only grey in different brightness...
*hmmppf* getting philosophic...
Maybe you should nail a wooden board to your forehead, that will prevent you from doing so
I've just tried twice to type up a response to this, but I can't. There is no use debating with somebody who will not open their mind at all.
Nobody in this thread is in full support of the Palestinean terrorist groups (at least I would judge they are not from their posts). Everyone acknowledges that they do some really shitty things, but you are not able to see that the way your government responds to them is just as bad. Sending a helicopter gunship to rocket attack a house because there is (or you suspect there is) a terrorist/criminal inside is not acceptable. Nor is that an acceptable way to remove a terrorist leader who is returning home from the mosque through a crowded street (or was he on the way there? I can't quite remember).
Take this story for example. Unless I am mistaken, this particular group had not made any attacks for "a year and a day" (well, that's what was reported when I saw the story on BBC news on television, oddly the website does not mention it). Why kill him now? Isn't that just going to stir up more trouble, likely resulting in more suicide bombings?
The actions of Hamas and the like are disgusting, the Israeli retaliations are frequently just as bad, or worse. That is the reason why Israel has lost support for it's cause from, for instance, European countries.
Is it really that hard to envision living side-by-side with them? Living at peace with your neighbors?
*Sigh*
Nobody in this thread is in full support of the Palestinean terrorist groups (at least I would judge they are not from their posts). Everyone acknowledges that they do some really shitty things, but you are not able to see that the way your government responds to them is just as bad. Sending a helicopter gunship to rocket attack a house because there is (or you suspect there is) a terrorist/criminal inside is not acceptable. Nor is that an acceptable way to remove a terrorist leader who is returning home from the mosque through a crowded street (or was he on the way there? I can't quite remember).
Take this story for example. Unless I am mistaken, this particular group had not made any attacks for "a year and a day" (well, that's what was reported when I saw the story on BBC news on television, oddly the website does not mention it). Why kill him now? Isn't that just going to stir up more trouble, likely resulting in more suicide bombings?
The actions of Hamas and the like are disgusting, the Israeli retaliations are frequently just as bad, or worse. That is the reason why Israel has lost support for it's cause from, for instance, European countries.
This is why the "Roadmap to Peace" and all the other peace talks have not worked.Sunny Jim said:
Is it really that hard to envision living side-by-side with them? Living at peace with your neighbors?
*Sigh*
In essence, I believe Sander wishes, not unlike me with my beloved Motherland, that one side, the clearly stronger more stable side, will step up and do the right thing even though its hard and even though its painful. Not getting revenge sucks, especially when its your children and brothers and sisters who are being killed. But its hard to remember (for some people at least) That revenge works both ways.
Now, having lived in an area of a country with the constant threat of daily terrorist attacks (I'm not sure Sander has, but it doesn't really matter) I feel I've been in a similar if not exactly the same boat. My sympathies have always been with israel since within hours of their founding all the neighboring countries began an invasion and they had to defend themselves with homemade weapons and WWII surplus. Hell, before that Jewish farmers were terrorized just for turning an arid wasteland into something you could live on. But thats not the point.
Now Isael is the stronger one. Now Israel is stable. Now Israel is a place worth living in with a population that has hope and opportunity. Whether its Israel's fault or not, the palestinians have been denied this, and so long as it is denied them there will be bombings. They have no Hope, they have nothing to lose, and they have Revenge to die for.
No matter how painful it is to admit it, Sander is right. Israel HAS to make the effort (And it WILL be an effort, it wont be easy by any means) to try and begin making the lives of average palestinians (yes, they are there) worth living. There will be setbacks, Israelis will be the ones making the sacrifices for peace and it will seem pointless at first. I shudder to think at the horror that could be unleashed at relaxed checkpoints and work places. In all honesty I dont know if I could accept that as part of the peace process.
Integration and peace is a dream right now. Someone has to make the first steps, which Israel has done before (Although with no results). Israel can try again.
Is it fair Israel should have to make sacrifices for the peace when the other side doesn't seem to want or make efforts for it? No.
But thats how its going to be.
That or we keep killing each other.
I for one, have seen enough of that.
Now, having lived in an area of a country with the constant threat of daily terrorist attacks (I'm not sure Sander has, but it doesn't really matter) I feel I've been in a similar if not exactly the same boat. My sympathies have always been with israel since within hours of their founding all the neighboring countries began an invasion and they had to defend themselves with homemade weapons and WWII surplus. Hell, before that Jewish farmers were terrorized just for turning an arid wasteland into something you could live on. But thats not the point.
Now Isael is the stronger one. Now Israel is stable. Now Israel is a place worth living in with a population that has hope and opportunity. Whether its Israel's fault or not, the palestinians have been denied this, and so long as it is denied them there will be bombings. They have no Hope, they have nothing to lose, and they have Revenge to die for.
No matter how painful it is to admit it, Sander is right. Israel HAS to make the effort (And it WILL be an effort, it wont be easy by any means) to try and begin making the lives of average palestinians (yes, they are there) worth living. There will be setbacks, Israelis will be the ones making the sacrifices for peace and it will seem pointless at first. I shudder to think at the horror that could be unleashed at relaxed checkpoints and work places. In all honesty I dont know if I could accept that as part of the peace process.
Integration and peace is a dream right now. Someone has to make the first steps, which Israel has done before (Although with no results). Israel can try again.
Is it fair Israel should have to make sacrifices for the peace when the other side doesn't seem to want or make efforts for it? No.
But thats how its going to be.
That or we keep killing each other.
I for one, have seen enough of that.
Big_T_UK said:
You have no idea how right you are, when I was preparing some Israeli refugee claimants for their interview, I’ve followed them trough on what they should say in order to get accepted, the funny thing was that they kept arguing with me, it was unbelievable.
Even when its for their own good they still cant let it go. Talk about brainwashing.
Its not brain washing Sovz, its the daily reality of Terror. Its hard not to form a hardcore opinion when its your family and friends lying in a pool of blood with smoking ruins and broken glass all around them when all they wanted to do was eat dinner or go to school.
Works on both sides.
Works on both sides.
Sorry Lauren, but it starts way before that.
its starts in the education about how pure and innocent the israelis are and how ugly and evil the arabs.
You can’t have another point of view, if you do, you are a traitor, and an outcast.
oh and btw, lets not forget that the jewish resistance implemented the same terrorist tactics against the british.
its starts in the education about how pure and innocent the israelis are and how ugly and evil the arabs.
You can’t have another point of view, if you do, you are a traitor, and an outcast.
oh and btw, lets not forget that the jewish resistance implemented the same terrorist tactics against the british.
Yes, the British were being attacked by everyone before they eventually pulled out. They were trying to police the situation and just didn't have the resources to handle it.
As far as the education system, I know several veterans of the 6 days war, they don't strike me as brainwashed or unintelligent. Most of them have their own theories for resolving the current situation and none of them involve a big wall or genocide.
Of course, I've never gone to an Israeli school so I can't really say what they teach. Most Israelis I know are intelligent and well adjusted (Snake doesn't count) even if they have lost loved ones to terrorist attacks.
The paranoid feeling no one is listening to them is pretty common though, I see that all the time.
Of course, strong Nationalism can cloud anyones judgement. I know I get annoyed when people who have never set foot in Russia, let alone near the Chechen border start telling me how to resolve the situation or what "its really like".
Its hard to take a step back and realize other people can see the big picture where maybe you can't.
As far as the education system, I know several veterans of the 6 days war, they don't strike me as brainwashed or unintelligent. Most of them have their own theories for resolving the current situation and none of them involve a big wall or genocide.
Of course, I've never gone to an Israeli school so I can't really say what they teach. Most Israelis I know are intelligent and well adjusted (Snake doesn't count) even if they have lost loved ones to terrorist attacks.
The paranoid feeling no one is listening to them is pretty common though, I see that all the time.
Of course, strong Nationalism can cloud anyones judgement. I know I get annoyed when people who have never set foot in Russia, let alone near the Chechen border start telling me how to resolve the situation or what "its really like".
Its hard to take a step back and realize other people can see the big picture where maybe you can't.
Dixie_Rebel
Still Mildly Glowing
I do not know if this has been mentioned yet but I do not have the time right now. If you look at U.N. records, Israel is actually slowly stealing land from the Palestinians. If I am not mistaken, the land of Israel was given to the Jews to set up a Jewish state after World War 2. The U.N. has told Israel many times to back off but they do not. I might post on this more later but I think I would also say that the Palestinians are less wrong than Israel. If I am mistaken about any of this please tell me. [sense of humor mixed with truth]Let's not get into world banks and world domination.[/sense of humor mixed with truth]
BTW.... I really like this forum. Most you guys actually put time and effort into stating facts as well as deep opinions on things. I have actually learned quite a bit while reading these forums. I just want to say thanks.
BTW.... I really like this forum. Most you guys actually put time and effort into stating facts as well as deep opinions on things. I have actually learned quite a bit while reading these forums. I just want to say thanks.
Dixie_Rebel said:
If I remember correctly Israel was given about half the landmass they have today. About 2 years after Israel became founded once again, Israel got attacked by about four countries who thought Israel got alot more land then they had coming.
Israel did not only beat back all the attacking countries whom coordinated the attack on Israel togheter they took some land from all of the attacking countries.
I think that sounds about fair dont you?
As for stealing land from palestina I dont agree there at all, they chose to build the Israeli wall over palestinian territory and not their own probably to do some terrorism of their own.
you know, it's so amusing how people love speaking in slogans, but the words themselves don't mean nothing... especially you sander... i'm sorry if you again think i'm "talking to you like talking to a moron", but that's not like that, i never did... it's exactly like someone before me said- you just can't understand the situation couse you don't live in it.
what i understood from you, is that because you believe there is a chance for the terrorists to stop the madness, if we start treating them like people, we should make a sacrifice in lives of israeli civilians. in your opinion, the sacrifice of hundreds, or maybe thousands(given on a daily basis of terror attacks from suicide bombers and such+the long proccess of rebuilding of palestinian economy and giving them work and free access to isreal, when we don't even have work for ourselves...) is worth the chance of peace in the future. you see, for you it's "reasonable casualties". for me, someone who those "reasonable casualties" could be my friends, my family or even me, it's not. you don't understand, that if you were in my shoes, you would think the same. because you don't really give a rat's ass what goes on in other places, and it's just natural, as it bothers me much less when there's a terrorist bombing or something, when it's not in my country.
and that's when we're assuming that this sarcifice will result in peace and co-existence! the thing is, we tried to do this... not once. what was the result? buses exploding almost daily killing about 20 people and wounding about 50-100 more. the burden for the people is too much to carry! they start protesting the goverment... this was the cause of assassinating itzhak rabin, our former prime minister, and the one who believed in your way, by an israeli. one of our own. it is a fact, rabin's way simply wouldn't have worked. as we know it now. as soon as talks begin, the terrorist fear an agreement which will force coexistence and known borders, and then we can defend ourselves by simply going at war with a palestine nation if they attack... that's why they will never want co-existence.
it's like you simply don't want to get it to your head that peace requires both sides to participate. there's no such thing as peace from one side... in conlusion, you think that if there will be peace from one side, the other will become peaceful too eventually. it's idiotic, and the funny thing is, it was tried! oslo agreement, camp david... they FAILED, and one of them got arafat a nobel price for peace. one of the funniest jokes ever...
now, to the guy who said israelis get "brainwashed" in schools, it's very sad to know that there are people like you. you really do pollute the gene pool of the human race, and an insult to the human intelligence. you're just like those middle-age mobs who claimed jews kidnapped christian kids, and baked matzot for pesah with their blood(well maybe that's true, i wasn't in the middle age LOL)
but i DID graduate an israeli highschool, and studied at a religious elementary school(logistic reasons only, i proudly eat pork
) and not only of course there's no brainwashing of any kind, it's against the law for teachers to speak of politics, and many times when students asked them for their opinions, there wasn't a time when they spoke their minds.
what i DO get "brainwashed" of, is 6 students of my school in a graveyard, and 2 girls from my former class, one of them was badly wounded, and the other got a hole in her leg+her hearing got damaged. all they did was go to a disco...
to the guy who said we slowly expand our borders, we do just the opposite.... we're preparing to make a serious retreat, and we're removing many settlements.
what i understood from you, is that because you believe there is a chance for the terrorists to stop the madness, if we start treating them like people, we should make a sacrifice in lives of israeli civilians. in your opinion, the sacrifice of hundreds, or maybe thousands(given on a daily basis of terror attacks from suicide bombers and such+the long proccess of rebuilding of palestinian economy and giving them work and free access to isreal, when we don't even have work for ourselves...) is worth the chance of peace in the future. you see, for you it's "reasonable casualties". for me, someone who those "reasonable casualties" could be my friends, my family or even me, it's not. you don't understand, that if you were in my shoes, you would think the same. because you don't really give a rat's ass what goes on in other places, and it's just natural, as it bothers me much less when there's a terrorist bombing or something, when it's not in my country.
and that's when we're assuming that this sarcifice will result in peace and co-existence! the thing is, we tried to do this... not once. what was the result? buses exploding almost daily killing about 20 people and wounding about 50-100 more. the burden for the people is too much to carry! they start protesting the goverment... this was the cause of assassinating itzhak rabin, our former prime minister, and the one who believed in your way, by an israeli. one of our own. it is a fact, rabin's way simply wouldn't have worked. as we know it now. as soon as talks begin, the terrorist fear an agreement which will force coexistence and known borders, and then we can defend ourselves by simply going at war with a palestine nation if they attack... that's why they will never want co-existence.
it's like you simply don't want to get it to your head that peace requires both sides to participate. there's no such thing as peace from one side... in conlusion, you think that if there will be peace from one side, the other will become peaceful too eventually. it's idiotic, and the funny thing is, it was tried! oslo agreement, camp david... they FAILED, and one of them got arafat a nobel price for peace. one of the funniest jokes ever...
now, to the guy who said israelis get "brainwashed" in schools, it's very sad to know that there are people like you. you really do pollute the gene pool of the human race, and an insult to the human intelligence. you're just like those middle-age mobs who claimed jews kidnapped christian kids, and baked matzot for pesah with their blood(well maybe that's true, i wasn't in the middle age LOL)
but i DID graduate an israeli highschool, and studied at a religious elementary school(logistic reasons only, i proudly eat pork
) and not only of course there's no brainwashing of any kind, it's against the law for teachers to speak of politics, and many times when students asked them for their opinions, there wasn't a time when they spoke their minds. what i DO get "brainwashed" of, is 6 students of my school in a graveyard, and 2 girls from my former class, one of them was badly wounded, and the other got a hole in her leg+her hearing got damaged. all they did was go to a disco...
to the guy who said we slowly expand our borders, we do just the opposite.... we're preparing to make a serious retreat, and we're removing many settlements.
That does it. I give up. If people don't want to learn, they can go kill eachother all they want, see what comes of that.
You're a complete and utter moron who can't read a thing I say, you know that?
I've been making one point, and one point only, that the only way of EVER stopping this violence will be PEACE, not MORE WAR. You're an idiot for not seeing that, and an even greater idiot for accusing me of wanting to sacrifice lives or not caring for anyone else's lives, and an even GREATER idiot for NOT FUCKING READINF WHAT I SAID! Did I ever say you should stop defending yourselves? No. But that's what you make of it. Did I ever say the boarder checks should completely stop? No. But that's what you make of it. Did I ever say anything about allowing your people to get killed? No. But that's what you make of it. Fuck this, if you can't read what I say, can't think properly about what I say and can only twist my words to show that you are right, you can go kill yourself in your idiotic quest to stop the palestinian terrorists by wiping them out. If you can't see that's impossible that's your problem.
And how would you know this is a "fact"? That's no fact, that's your opinion. You believe that it wouldn't have worked. And why don't you? Because you've seen a lot of deaths, including Rabin's. Guess what, Rabin's way never was comletely pulled through, and the way you're following now isn't stopping ANY terrorists either. The death toll just keeps rising. I shudder for the day some terrorist decides to detonate a nuclear weapon in the middle of Israel.
Have a nice time living in a nuclear wasteland.
No, I can see that, but I can also see that this is one war that can NEVER be won. The fact is that you refuse to see that simply because your hatred towards the Palestinians who have killed so many has grown to such proportions you can't think rationally about this subject any more.
No I don't. How hard is this to understand:
You kill people-=more people want to kill you.
You help people=more people will be friendly towards you.
Get that through to your hate-filled cluttered up brain and THEN come back.
bah... i started writing a long reply but it really is pointless... just like you claim i don't see what you mean, you CLEARLY don't see what i mean, and you don't understand me... we start repeating ourselves, so i'll leave this for now... maybe i'll try again some time