Israel-Palestinians situation
- Thread starter sunny jim
- Start date
Suicide Candidate
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Ahh, who cares about the stupid ragheads blowing each other up.
Let's see when they get to using nuclear weapons on each other.
Let's see when they get to using nuclear weapons on each other.
Sander is not saying anything offensive, nor is he saying it in an offensive manner. Snake you need to stop being an Ass.
As for Sunny Jim, I don't think you are understanding what Sander is saying mostly because you arn't taking it all together.
In no way does he want Israel to suffer but he feels (and I think its a fair assumption, even if not based on front line experience) that more efforts should be put into increasing the quality of living for the Palestinians then in retaliating against Terrorists. Israel is the only place that can do this. I don't seem to recall him with any specific ideas on how to do this, but its not hard to begin thinking about.
However, you seem to take offense at this notion, as I would, no doubt. Your view of the bigger picture is tainted by the obvious and justifiabe attachment you have to your home and family and friends. I think its fair for you to recognize YOU will be the one suffering in this plan, not Sander.
However, I think on a conceptual level you should lighten up and be open to hearing ideas.
You can shake your head and call him a moron all you want on your end of the computer, but in these forums I think its best to keep an open mind, you DID start the discussion after all.
As for Sunny Jim, I don't think you are understanding what Sander is saying mostly because you arn't taking it all together.
In no way does he want Israel to suffer but he feels (and I think its a fair assumption, even if not based on front line experience) that more efforts should be put into increasing the quality of living for the Palestinians then in retaliating against Terrorists. Israel is the only place that can do this. I don't seem to recall him with any specific ideas on how to do this, but its not hard to begin thinking about.
However, you seem to take offense at this notion, as I would, no doubt. Your view of the bigger picture is tainted by the obvious and justifiabe attachment you have to your home and family and friends. I think its fair for you to recognize YOU will be the one suffering in this plan, not Sander.
However, I think on a conceptual level you should lighten up and be open to hearing ideas.
You can shake your head and call him a moron all you want on your end of the computer, but in these forums I think its best to keep an open mind, you DID start the discussion after all.
Snake is a perfect idiot on these forums ive noticed. Not like the kottbullar.
There, how's that for you, Snake? How about you keep out of threads where you've got nothing better to do but put me down, huh? Have you really got nothing better to do than wander around forums to comment on my behaviour? You're not even a moderator or administrator, so you have no right or business doing this.
Sunny Jim: I understand that you won't see my way, and that you think I don't understand your way (I do, I just don't agree with it). If you don't want to continue, that is fine by me. I should apologize for all the cussing, though, but these things get me wound up. Sorry.
There, how's that for you, Snake? How about you keep out of threads where you've got nothing better to do but put me down, huh? Have you really got nothing better to do than wander around forums to comment on my behaviour? You're not even a moderator or administrator, so you have no right or business doing this.
Sunny Jim: I understand that you won't see my way, and that you think I don't understand your way (I do, I just don't agree with it). If you don't want to continue, that is fine by me. I should apologize for all the cussing, though, but these things get me wound up. Sorry.
yeah, moron and idiot is not offensive at all... 
suicide candidate, will you stop with the bullshit please? get that nuclear weapons thing out of your head... why don't you look at the map, and check out the size of israel? if a nuke falls there, it'll hit the palestinians and the jordans too... and stop watching all those movies where it's so easy to your local terrorist to go to a store and buy a nuke...
suicide candidate, will you stop with the bullshit please? get that nuclear weapons thing out of your head... why don't you look at the map, and check out the size of israel? if a nuke falls there, it'll hit the palestinians and the jordans too... and stop watching all those movies where it's so easy to your local terrorist to go to a store and buy a nuke...
Köttbullar? okay so your saying meatballs are smarter than me, not bad a joke actually.
And Sander I will drop the attitude towards you when you stop being a bigotted prick whos always right and is acting like your blessing us with your visits and your *sigh* replies kippendrol.
And Sander I will drop the attitude towards you when you stop being a bigotted prick whos always right and is acting like your blessing us with your visits and your *sigh* replies kippendrol.
Commissar Lauren said:
emm... lauren, i'm sorry, but are you on drugs or something? you better check who called who a moron...
and i would really like you to find where i called him a moron... that would be great.that's what i was talking about all along! sander is taking in slogans! he doesn't give any ideas... he just says "try making their lives easier, and they will treat you better too"... he doesn't understand that we can't stop all the things i asked if he wanted to stop(and he said "no, i didn't say that you fool! you moron! you idiot!"), and make their lives easyer. we can't give them jobs and keep them off our borders... i don't get it why he thinks we don't help them at all... we supply them with electricity and water, and other things(like letting them work in israel before, but now we can't couse every one of them potentially can be a terrorist and explode in a restrount in tel aviv or something).
sander, give me examples of exacly, specifically, what we can do, and i'll tell you if we can do it or not. I AM OPEN MINDED! i just have nothing to be open minded to so far! i have arab friends! i don't hate all of them! this is HORSECRAP! but you didn't give me anything open minded to except "make their life easier and it'll be better"... it's a slogan, and it doesn't have any meaning behind it.
So basically, you're justifying being an asshole, by saying that my being an asshole is bad. Great reasoning there!
Sunny Jim: Here are some of the concrete examples of what I said you could do:
"supports the current Palestinian government"
"gives it financial aid "
"help build a better world for these Palestinian"
"Israelis stop acting discriminatingly and violently towards Palestinians"
"stop creating so much antipathy towards them"
See why I hate it when people don't read what I say? These examples were given two posts back, you should've already noticed them.
sunny jim said:emm... lauren, i'm sorry, but are you on drugs or something? you better check who called who a moron...
I didn't say you called him a Moron. And yes, apparently I AM on drugs. I went back and reread Sanders post, heh Sander, got a little excited did we? I didn't notice before mostly because... well, does anyone take insults from a Dutchie seriously?
Anyways, I noticed just now Sander posted while I was typing this up. Those are a good start Sander, but do you really think giving money to the Palestinain government is the greatest idea? I think its quite possible it would only go to fuel more terrorist bombings and give money to their families.
I may be mistaken however, with Arifat out of the picture things could be changing for the good with a little effort.
The last two are pretty weak though. "Stop Creating Antipathy"?
That should be on the Palestinian list of things to do as well.
As well as "stop making it so its impossible to trust anyone because anyone could have bombs strapped on under their clothes."
I'm not sure you can understand the feeling of knowing every day you may die just for riding the bus or going to the movies. "Creating Antipathy" is just a natural reaction the citizens have to this reality. I dont know specificly what you mean though. When Sunny Jim says he has Arab friends I believe him, just like I have friends in Chechnya. Sounds like a serious lack of antipathy going on there. Unless you are meaning the harrassment at the check points. Of course, even then, its hard to condemn. Literally anyone could be a bomber and if you let one through, well thats the blood of your people on your hands for failing your duty. Not a burden I want to carry.
But it is a good start, and please, expand on those ideas if you will. I'm wracking my brain for other ideas as we speak but I dont think I'm going to get much
lauren, i salute you 
november, yeah. exactly... all the "ideas" he gave are slogans too... except those who are rediculous... give them money... heh, besides the fact that the money they get(from arab nations and international support they have or don't) does fuel terrorists, and it was proven too many times before, we don't have money to give them! all the money we have-we need.
and sander, don't you think it's QUITE rediculous to ask money or else we'll murder your people? that's called robbing... you want us to be robbed that is? we never asked for money "or else"... why should they have this privilage?!
support the goverment? what do you mean? explain yourself...
"help build a better world"- it doesn't get more slogan than this... totally useless remark...
violently towards palestinians? you know, shit happens, but it's not like we do it on a regular basis... sure incidents happen, as angry soldiers unleash their wrath. this can't be avoided, because of all the reasons lauren said... i don't support it! but it's just because not everyone can hold back, and it's part of human nature. you can't demand a change, uneless you think humans are robots, or unless they stop reasons to hate them.
antipathy? what lauren said.
so don't you say i didn't notice them... it's just that there's not much to comment of, like i said before-slogans.
november, yeah. exactly... all the "ideas" he gave are slogans too... except those who are rediculous... give them money... heh, besides the fact that the money they get(from arab nations and international support they have or don't) does fuel terrorists, and it was proven too many times before, we don't have money to give them! all the money we have-we need.
and sander, don't you think it's QUITE rediculous to ask money or else we'll murder your people? that's called robbing... you want us to be robbed that is? we never asked for money "or else"... why should they have this privilage?!
support the goverment? what do you mean? explain yourself...
"help build a better world"- it doesn't get more slogan than this... totally useless remark...
violently towards palestinians? you know, shit happens, but it's not like we do it on a regular basis... sure incidents happen, as angry soldiers unleash their wrath. this can't be avoided, because of all the reasons lauren said... i don't support it! but it's just because not everyone can hold back, and it's part of human nature. you can't demand a change, uneless you think humans are robots, or unless they stop reasons to hate them.
antipathy? what lauren said.
so don't you say i didn't notice them... it's just that there's not much to comment of, like i said before-slogans.
welsh
Junkmaster
ANd here I was thinking I would have to cut and vat!
This post is half funny. Lauren, nice moderating by the way. Gosh if you are as sexy as you are smart, us guys are in trouble.
As for the Palestinian-Israeli thing.
One day people have to bury the past and get on with life. I know, that's a slogan too. But you guys suffer too much history that gets in your way.
The moralities of this thing, not sure how much they really matter. If the Israelis do an immoral thing the world community doesn't care. If the Palestinians do a naughty thing, it's in the news and the Israelis use it as justification for a little payback.
It's all very revenge drive, all very ethic and intense. You are with us or against us. And if you are Israeli or Palestinian, you decision is made for you at birth. Frankly it sucks.
I have to say I kind of like the wall. Yes, it blows that the Israelis are stealing Palestinian land, but really, what's a little more land?
Remember Robert Frost- good walls make for good neighbors. Maybe with the wall there will be less terrorist bombings, the Israelis can live in their sheltered walled in city, just like Crusaders in the middle ages surrounded by Arab hordes, and the Palestinains can throw rocks at the wall and nurse their historic revenge. So maybe nothing changes except there are fewer suicide bombins and less Israeli payback.
ANd maybe when they stop killing each other they can get on with making their own lives more meaningful.
If that's the moral cost of the wall, so be it. These folks can't live together, and they never will. Even if there were enough moderates on both sides to make peace, there are enough extremists on both sides to screw it up. And the moderates on either side can't trust each other, the extremists know they will win. IF things become too peaceful, just start blowing stuff up. Sprinkle a little blood on that dry land and terror and violence springs up like weeds.
I am rather pessimistic about this. Frankly, I don't give a shit about the Palestinians any more. They had a chance and blew it. I also don't give a shit about the Israelis- they voted for Sharon so they get what they pay for.
some years ago, the old George Bush (the older and smarter one) told the Israelis that if they didn't stop building settlements on the west bank, we'd cut the funding. I think that might have been an act of political sucide for the older Bush, but it was an act of character and I salute him for it.
The Israelis have this habit of leading the Americans by the nose. They know that, at the end of the day, we will back them up, and they take advantage of it. And it has done little for the US except cause us more trouble. If not for the Jewish Lobby, the same group that recently got caught spying on the US, the US policy on Israel would be different.
If the US didn't support Israel how might things change? Would the Israelis be more prone to negotiate and make peace? I doubt it. Most politics is local, and this little dispute is run by two religious wackos that think they have a God given right to a patch of earth.
Fuck them both. They have had a half century to figure their shit out. They have both blown it.
ANd why haven't they? Maybe because both of them believe they need this conflict to exist.
This post is half funny. Lauren, nice moderating by the way. Gosh if you are as sexy as you are smart, us guys are in trouble.
As for the Palestinian-Israeli thing.
One day people have to bury the past and get on with life. I know, that's a slogan too. But you guys suffer too much history that gets in your way.
The moralities of this thing, not sure how much they really matter. If the Israelis do an immoral thing the world community doesn't care. If the Palestinians do a naughty thing, it's in the news and the Israelis use it as justification for a little payback.
It's all very revenge drive, all very ethic and intense. You are with us or against us. And if you are Israeli or Palestinian, you decision is made for you at birth. Frankly it sucks.
I have to say I kind of like the wall. Yes, it blows that the Israelis are stealing Palestinian land, but really, what's a little more land?
Remember Robert Frost- good walls make for good neighbors. Maybe with the wall there will be less terrorist bombings, the Israelis can live in their sheltered walled in city, just like Crusaders in the middle ages surrounded by Arab hordes, and the Palestinains can throw rocks at the wall and nurse their historic revenge. So maybe nothing changes except there are fewer suicide bombins and less Israeli payback.
ANd maybe when they stop killing each other they can get on with making their own lives more meaningful.
If that's the moral cost of the wall, so be it. These folks can't live together, and they never will. Even if there were enough moderates on both sides to make peace, there are enough extremists on both sides to screw it up. And the moderates on either side can't trust each other, the extremists know they will win. IF things become too peaceful, just start blowing stuff up. Sprinkle a little blood on that dry land and terror and violence springs up like weeds.
I am rather pessimistic about this. Frankly, I don't give a shit about the Palestinians any more. They had a chance and blew it. I also don't give a shit about the Israelis- they voted for Sharon so they get what they pay for.
some years ago, the old George Bush (the older and smarter one) told the Israelis that if they didn't stop building settlements on the west bank, we'd cut the funding. I think that might have been an act of political sucide for the older Bush, but it was an act of character and I salute him for it.
The Israelis have this habit of leading the Americans by the nose. They know that, at the end of the day, we will back them up, and they take advantage of it. And it has done little for the US except cause us more trouble. If not for the Jewish Lobby, the same group that recently got caught spying on the US, the US policy on Israel would be different.
If the US didn't support Israel how might things change? Would the Israelis be more prone to negotiate and make peace? I doubt it. Most politics is local, and this little dispute is run by two religious wackos that think they have a God given right to a patch of earth.
Fuck them both. They have had a half century to figure their shit out. They have both blown it.
ANd why haven't they? Maybe because both of them believe they need this conflict to exist.
well... i agreed on parts of what you said...
as for the parts i don't agree on...
the wall- because of it, we actually give up on territory, and when it'll be finished, we will remove which are not inside the fence(it's not a wall, it's a high-tec fence). now, this fence is a nessecity, because without it it's much easier for suicide bombers to breach into our territory. we do make a border of our choosing because of it, but the size of the land spoken of, is so insignificant that it's pathetic even to discuss over it. now, i forgot to say to sander about how wrong it is for him to think that our actions don't prevent terrorist attack. so that you'll know, a lot more than 90 percent of the tries for terror are spotted, and ever since we moved forces into their territories(about a year ago i think), the suicide bombings attackes dropped from a few each week to less than once a month, and there were times of no incidents inside the borders for many months...
about us choosing sharon-what exactly do you mean we can blame ourselves? explain yourself please about your dissapointment of him.
you're kidding about the media supporting israel right? i'm not even gonna comment over this one...
extremists on both sides? oh really? commmon man... please be serious... a bit...
half a century to work this out... pretty hard when the other side doesn't cooperate. the terrorists deny our existense, and they will consider coexistence as an option. like i said millions of times. noone to make peace with, when the terrorists are still here. the terrorists don't want us to help them, they want us gone. sander, sadly you can't understand this... and you don't understand that even if we give them money, and be kind with them, and treat them like people, and "support the goverment"(what the hell does that mean?), the terrorists will still be here.
as for the parts i don't agree on...
the wall- because of it, we actually give up on territory, and when it'll be finished, we will remove which are not inside the fence(it's not a wall, it's a high-tec fence). now, this fence is a nessecity, because without it it's much easier for suicide bombers to breach into our territory. we do make a border of our choosing because of it, but the size of the land spoken of, is so insignificant that it's pathetic even to discuss over it. now, i forgot to say to sander about how wrong it is for him to think that our actions don't prevent terrorist attack. so that you'll know, a lot more than 90 percent of the tries for terror are spotted, and ever since we moved forces into their territories(about a year ago i think), the suicide bombings attackes dropped from a few each week to less than once a month, and there were times of no incidents inside the borders for many months...
about us choosing sharon-what exactly do you mean we can blame ourselves? explain yourself please about your dissapointment of him.
you're kidding about the media supporting israel right? i'm not even gonna comment over this one...
extremists on both sides? oh really? commmon man... please be serious... a bit...
half a century to work this out... pretty hard when the other side doesn't cooperate. the terrorists deny our existense, and they will consider coexistence as an option. like i said millions of times. noone to make peace with, when the terrorists are still here. the terrorists don't want us to help them, they want us gone. sander, sadly you can't understand this... and you don't understand that even if we give them money, and be kind with them, and treat them like people, and "support the goverment"(what the hell does that mean?), the terrorists will still be here.
sunny jim said:
That is a very important point that hadn't been mentioned yet. And not just the terrorists. Even after defeating them in several wars, the surrounding countries still tend to take the stance Israel isn't a real or valid nation. Thats just a load of bullshit that gets passed on down the line and helps breed hatred and resentment against Israel. Really, one of the largest road blocks to success is the lack of education of the younger generations. With nothing but violent rhetoric shoved down their throats, how is there any hope for peace?
my point exactly... you also touched another thing, about the education. unlike that ignorant jerk who said students in israel are brainwashed, i saw on tv, in the news, classrooms with small children in palestine, where the teachers chant together with them things like "kill all israelis" or "death to zionism"... spreading hatred from age 0.
too bad sander doesn't understand, that it's not like the terrorists are fighting for their rights, and for a nation of their own. they are fighting to annihilate us.
too bad sander doesn't understand, that it's not like the terrorists are fighting for their rights, and for a nation of their own. they are fighting to annihilate us.
Face it, you're both fighting to annihilate each other. Either you learn to coexist rationally, or you'll eventually end up slitting each others' throats.
I must say that you seem to have got the wrong end of the stick with Sander. His arguments may not always be good, but he's not a bad guy and you seem intent on turning his arguments into anti-zionist or even anti-semitic statements. I won't go into it though, because, quite simply, I am too lazy to find examples. Yes, this does mean that you can entirely discount this post.
Regarding the brainwashing, those who have been brainwashed well are seldom aware that they have been.
Please note that I am not saying that you have been brainwashed, by the state or otherwise. I don't know enough about the school system over there to comment.
Regarding the brainwashing, those who have been brainwashed well are seldom aware that they have been.
Please note that I am not saying that you have been brainwashed, by the state or otherwise. I don't know enough about the school system over there to comment.
Okay. That does it. I'm out. Have fun being killed by and killing all those palestinians without actually learning to read what I say. I am so fucking TIRED of people not fucking READING what i say.