It Began and it Ended. For now.

Kharn said:
If you're suggesting that Europe as a whole should pause about how it fucked up you're having the same perspective-problems as CC is. France's problem is France's problem. It is interesting as a warning shot, but only in the same way that the riots in the US were the same and in the same way that terrorism in the US forewarned terrorism in the EU. To imply collective responsibility is ludicrous at best.


Kharn, I am curious as to whether that is the opinion of the non-EU average Dutch person? I mean, I seem to recall the big concern regarding Theo van Gogh's death almost exactly one year ago. I am interested if the concern about it being a 'European' problem or not stems from the fact that the Netherlands is not, of course, much a part of the EU. I would be interested to see if others in your society might view this otherwise?
 
Fireblade said:
Kharn, I am curious as to whether that is the opinion of the non-EU average Dutch person? I mean, I seem to recall the big concern regarding Theo van Gogh's death almost exactly one year ago. I am interested if the concern about it being a 'European' problem or not stems from the fact that the Netherlands is not, of course, much a part of the EU. I would be interested to see if others in your society might view this otherwise?

The "concern" gathered around Van Gogh's death one year ago, which I thankfully missed, was really little more than an instance of mass-hysteria. I'm being dead-serious, do not take stock on reactions there.

The Netherlands is VERY MUCH a part of the EU. I'm not sure why you'd indicate that it's not. It is a founder-member with a disproportionate amount of influence in the councils, as well as the biggest contributer per capita by our own ridiculously bad calculations. The Netherlands is very EU, to argue that it's not based on it's no-vote to the constitution would not only be patently ridiculous but would also be severely misunderstanding the difference between being a EU yes-man and "being EU".

Is the Netherlands panicking now, though? 'course not. Because France is still, essentially, another country and their problems aren't directly ours. Does that answer your question?
 
You forget, this is John Uskglass we're talking about. To him, the relative lack of females in China spells out population doom, or the fact that some US debts are to China means the US debt is irrelevant...
I've changed a lot of my opinions fairly recently.



And the fact that Debt and Americans have been fucking eachother on a regular basis for 80 years and not gone Rise and Fall of Great Powers is proof that Debt is not the most important part of an economy.

Our GDP is expanding because our leader, whilst being an idiot, has some good solid backstabbing economic policies such as the devaluating of the dollar, our military is so powerful that with our huge debts we won't be able to upkeep it much longer and our population is not near collapse, which also goes for many other populations in the world despite CC's unproven claims to the contrary.

It's a motherfucking recession Kharn, we are at war and we have a monkey on the throne. I'd have to say that our economy is doing pretty well inspite of all of this, considering that our 3% growth has been maintained, and IIRC the EU has not had a period of 3% growth over a prolonged period in a long, long time.

Explain to me exactly why I should worship the grand stability of the US, a country with enormous debts, a bloated unsustainable military asnd ridiculous reliance on other people's gasses?
1) Our military is not unsustainable on any level, that's a somewhat bizzare comment I'd have to say.
2) Debts. Yes. Those are all important. Debts where the reason the US economy was never able to recover from our 5 trillion dollar debt in the mid ninties. Oh wait, that's bullshit.

The American economy is in debt because we buy things while China, Japan and India make things. That's how the global economy works.


And still with a GDP real growth rate of 7%.
That happens when one child inherits two.

Honestly, a depopulated Russia's future is basically having Siberia annexed by China. I mean, it's waging a 200 year old Iraq in Chechnya, it has a major AIDS problem, a massive drug problem and it's about as corrupt as a New Orleans Meth addict at the DMV.


Country in transition, kid, get used to it.
Country in transiton from existance to not existing you mean? I really think you do not appreciate the importance of demographics, even if I over emphasize it.
 
I thought Most of Europe was tolerant of other races and religious groups until someone pointed out these articles on a sports forum. (thats why they are about soccer)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59919-2004Dec12.html

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/print?id=317756&type=feature&cc=%

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,799673,00.html

http://anthonybradley.worldmagblog.com/anthonybradley/archives/012256.html

HOLY SHIT. I know that there is Racism in the USA today but nothing near this bad. I can't imagine something like that happening at a Baseball or football game here.

What the heck is the problem?
 
brandons1313 said:
HOLY SHIT. I know that there is Racism in the USA today but nothing near this bad. I can't imagine something like that happening at a Baseball or football game here.

What the heck is the problem?

I think it's just that since the US is almost completely made up of immigrants and a really large population of africans were over here from pretty much the beginning of our country (in slavery which made the color issue a hundred times worse than it would be under normal circumstances, of course) we were forced to deal with all of these things much earlier and much more "all at once" than Europe, so at this point racism in our country is much closer to being a resolved issue then it is over there (though it still has a long way to go here too). The kind of things in the articles you linked all happened here as well to pretty much every nationality that moved here except to the English and probably the Germans, Dutch and French as well. The only thing that really surprises me about racism in Europe is the fact that anti-semitism is still kind of prevalent - you'd think that WWII would have killed that for good. Though I guess it could be blamed on Israel not being much of a goodwill ambassador for jewish people.
 
Ah. A new thread about CCR's wishful thinking of a complete collapse of Europe due to invading Arab hordes. Amusing. I wonder if fat and rich German kids post somewhere on the web "OMG USA IS COLLAPSING BECAUSE OF PORTORICAN IMMIGRANTS!"

Kharn pretty much summed the banlieue problems up, I don't have much else to add in ways of constructive criticism to this debate.

Oh yes, except one thing.

HOLY SHIT. I know that there is Racism in the USA today but nothing near this bad.

Watts, 1965
Baltimore, 1968.
 
What the heck is the problem?
For me it's more of amusement to see what kind of taunts the fans are able to make up to try to brake the opponent teams spirit(that's called the home team advantage), and the taunts are racist cause it's more easier in europe to brake the spirit by excluding the black people than try to attack the whole team. So this is just an example of creationism in the fans part, and if you are a good player, you should be able to handle the abuse, as long as it's not physical.
 
Jarno Mikkola said:
For me it's more of amusement to see what kind of taunts the fans are able to make up to try to brake the opponent teams spirit(that's called the home team advantage), and the taunts are racist cause it's more easier in europe to brake the spirit by excluding the black people than try to attack the whole team. So this is just an example of creationism in the fans part, and if you are a good player, you should be able to handle the abuse, as long as it's not physical.
Making monkey sounds, however, is simply not cool. Booing when the other side has the ball is one thing, monkeying is another.

That said, that's quite an extreme reaction to a very minor problem, a bunch of idiotic hooligans are racist and immediately someone thinks it's a structural thing in Europe. Heh.
 
brandons1313 said:
I thought Most of Europe was tolerant of other races and religious groups until someone pointed out these articles on a sports forum. (thats why they are about soccer)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59919-2004Dec12.html

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/print?id=317756&type=feature&cc=%

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,799673,00.html

http://anthonybradley.worldmagblog.com/anthonybradley/archives/012256.html

HOLY SHIT. I know that there is Racism in the USA today but nothing near this bad. I can't imagine something like that happening at a Baseball or football game here.

What the heck is the problem?
Welcome to competitive sports. Like George Orwell remarked, competitive sports don't promote tolerance and friendship - quite the contrary, sports arenas are a breeding ground for intolerance, aggression and animosity, a natural habitat for various forms of primitivism and hate, places where people are sure give in to their most violent and destructive urges. The ultimate goal of a sports match is to defeat the opponent, to beat him into submission, to wreck his hopes and crush his spirit, to make him feel miserable and impotent in every imaginable way, both on and off the field. This primal behaviour may manifest itself as racist or chauvinist chanting or as a physical clash. It is irrelevant really - when the referee blows his whistle, signalling the beginning of the match, when the competitive spirit flares up and temperature reaches boiling point, crowds of sports fans will take the competition as far as the authorities will permit it and their cruelty will know no boundaries, and all the while their passionate hearts will beat righteously in their patriotic chests, creating a dire, vicious cacophony, and they will tear off the nearest chair and, screaming various obscenities, use it to sunder heads of their opponents, for they are The Enemy, The Ones who have come to hate, to threaten, to kill, and it is brave, righteous and necessary to smite them like bugs, in the name of thy Nation, thy God, thy Country, thy Race and thy Counter Strike clan.
 
John Uskglass said:
And the fact that Debt and Americans have been fucking eachother on a regular basis for 80 years and not gone Rise and Fall of Great Powers is proof that Debt is not the most important part of an economy.

The fact that the Fall didn't happen at the exact moment he said doesn't mean it will never happen, John, I wish you would stop using that retarded argumentum ad nauseam.

Debt is a relevant part of an economy, especially when combined to the increasnig threat of people shifting their dollars back towards the US en masse and changing for Euros, OPEC, Russia and China ahead of the rest in this. You're not facing a stable economy, you're not.

John Uskglass said:
It's a motherfucking recession Kharn, we are at war and we have a monkey on the throne. I'd have to say that our economy is doing pretty well inspite of all of this, considering that our 3% growth has been maintained, and IIRC the EU has not had a period of 3% growth over a prolonged period in a long, long time.

1. The EU is not a single, integrated economy. If you unify it you contain very diverse economies, I have no doubt that in any given year one of them didn't have a 3% GDP real growth rate.
2. It's not a recession. Really, it's not.
3. I thought the war was over?
4. Throne is a very adequate word to refer to the US concept of democracy.
5. A bit more relevant, it's nice how you waved over your two first statements without seeing the connection. Dubyah pumped up the American economy artificially by investing huge amounts of money in such ways that they'd lift the economy back up, either through Reagenomics (already proven flawed by experience) or through the military complex, which has an exorbitant amount of civilian contracts and with the amount of money going around there IS a relevant mover of economies. The moment the well dries out, you dry out.

John Uskglass said:
1) Our military is not unsustainable on any level, that's a somewhat bizzare comment I'd have to say.

Really? Right now you're growing a debt at an enormous rate despite a "healthy economy" to sustain a bloated military. Tell me exactly how you should be able to sustain it in, say, the next 10 years without collapsing your economy?

John Uskglass said:
2) Debts. Yes. Those are all important. Debts where the reason the US economy was never able to recover from our 5 trillion dollar debt in the mid ninties. Oh wait, that's bullshit.

Your current debt is 8 trillion and you're not facing an internet bubble to help you recover speedily. Your argument is a non-argument.

I suggest you pick up a book on geopolitics and consider the fact that 44% of your federal public debt is held by foreignors, 64% by banks including large chunks to Japan and China. If you don't understand the risk of this, like I said, pick up a book.

John Uskglass said:
The American economy is in debt because we buy things while China, Japan and India make things. That's how the global economy works.

Putting you on the negative end of the stick, I hope you realise that. Producer/exporter countries have an inherent edge of consumer/importers, like yourself.

But you're right, that's how the global economy works, and it's the only thing that could save your sorry butts once the inevitable collapse comes, as nobody stands to profit from the US collapsing, anymore than anybody stands to profit from the EU collapsing.

John Uskglass said:
That happens when one child inherits two.

Honestly, a depopulated Russia's future is basically having Siberia annexed by China. I mean, it's waging a 200 year old Iraq in Chechnya, it has a major AIDS problem, a massive drug problem and it's about as corrupt as a New Orleans Meth addict at the DMV.

(...)

Country in transiton from existance to not existing you mean? I really think you do not appreciate the importance of demographics, even if I over emphasize it.

I really think you need to learn more on a country's situation before blabbing your mouth about it. The reclaiming of Siberia are the kind of fears old wives living on the China-Russia border blab about and anyone with a hint of knowledge of the political situation knows that it's not only unlikely but practically impossible for a generation or two.

Chechnya is 300 years old.

AIDs, drugs (to a lesser extent) and corruption (to a greater extent) are some of the only real problems you named. They're real problems, especially with the birt rate deficiencies, but they're not set to make the country collapse.

What you fail to realise is that Russia's current state is a result for a large part not so much of its Soviet heritage but of the heritage of Jeltsin's incompetent rule. Poetin showed pretty effectively in his first term, though less so in his second, that these *are* transitional, if real, problems.

The difference being that Russia has an enormous levy in terms of military, economics and natural resources. How effectively this will be used to battle the problems coming for the next two generations remains to be seen, but anybody who knows Russia fears for the short term, not the long term.
 
Graz'zt said:
brandons1313 said:
I thought Most of Europe was tolerant of other races and religious groups until someone pointed out these articles on a sports forum. (thats why they are about soccer)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59919-2004Dec12.html

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/print?id=317756&type=feature&cc=%

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,799673,00.html

http://anthonybradley.worldmagblog.com/anthonybradley/archives/012256.html

HOLY SHIT. I know that there is Racism in the USA today but nothing near this bad. I can't imagine something like that happening at a Baseball or football game here.

What the heck is the problem?
Welcome to competitive sports. Like George Orwell remarked, competitive sports don't promote tolerance and friendship - quite the contrary, sports arenas are a breeding ground for intolerance, aggression and animosity, a natural habitat for various forms of primitivism and hate, places where people are sure give in to their most violent and destructive urges. The ultimate goal of a sports match is to defeat the opponent, to beat him into submission, to wreck his hopes and crush his spirit, to make him feel miserable and impotent in every imaginable way, both on and off the field. This primal behaviour may manifest itself as racist or chauvinist chanting or as a physical clash. It is irrelevant really - when the referee blows his whistle, signalling the beginning of the match, when the competitive spirit flares up and temperature reaches boiling point, crowds of sports fans will take the competition as far as the authorities will permit it and their cruelty will know no boundaries, and all the while their passionate hearts will beat righteously in their patriotic chests, creating a dire, vicious cacophony, and they will tear off the nearest chair and, screaming various obscenities, use it to sunder heads of their opponents, for they are The Enemy, The Ones who have come to hate, to threaten, to kill, and it is brave, righteous and necessary to smite them like bugs, in the name of thy Nation, thy God, thy Country, thy Race and thy Counter Strike clan.

Sorry Graz, It seems like a poor excuse to me.

From what I understand is that it the racism problem is getting worse. I guess in England, where White supremacy groups have formed with the intention of ridding the game of soccer of anyone that is not caucasian. Fascist parties almost winning presidential elections. Anti-black/arab demonstrations, etc.

I'm sure some European countries have a bigger problem than others.
 
I guess in England, where White supremacy groups have formed with the intention of ridding the game of soccer of anyone that is not caucasian. Fascist parties almost winning presidential elections. Anti-black/arab demonstrations, etc.

Football hooligans are yob twats. They hardly represent the views of the country, let alone Europe as a whole.
What Fascist Parties have nearly won a "presidential" elections in England?
We have anti-black demonstrations here? Nah, we just get hippies marching for rights for foxes.
 
The fact that the Fall didn't happen at the exact moment he said doesn't mean it will never happen, John, I wish you would stop using that retarded argumentum ad nauseam.
Falls take hundreds of years. We have not even had our Napoleonic Wars, our Thirty Years War or our World War to try to maintain power against everyone else. And even after that we still have a respectable period as a great power.

I think you, and Kennedy, tend to assume far reaching, dramatic economic shifts happen in a decade or more. America won't always be #1, but we have quite a way to go before we are obviously #2. I'm not the poster I was 2 years ago Kharn, I fully understand that America won't be king forever.

Debt is a relevant part of an economy, especially when combined to the increasnig threat of people shifting their dollars back towards the US en masse and changing for Euros, OPEC, Russia and China ahead of the rest in this. You're not facing a stable economy, you're not.
People changing money to the Yuan, the Dinar and the Rouble? Huh?
I have to say, I think for the time being the dollar is somewhat stable, considering the decline of the Euro after the failure of the Constitution. And that it has been #1 for 70 years.



1. The EU is not a single, integrated economy. If you unify it you contain very diverse economies, I have no doubt that in any given year one of them didn't have a 3% GDP real growth rate.
By that argument I could say that you should compare, say, Nevada to Lithuania instead of the US to Lithuania or France.

The EU and the US are of comparitive size economically, and we are much more powerful militarily and we are larger in terms of geography (though much smaller in terms of population).


2. It's not a recession. Really, it's not.
o rly?

When did this happen?

Honest?

You argued that the totally pathetic growth of the Western Euroipean economies over the last few years has been due to a recession, but now suddenly we're out of it inspite the fact that the German, French and the rest are still not growing?


3. I thought the war was over?
Don't joke plz.

4. Throne is a very adequate word to refer to the US concept of democracy.
I'd rather have the Imperial German model then the modern Rhineland model of government right now. Honestly, I don't think you have a fucking leg to stand on after the last German election. What a fucking mess.

Dubyah pumped up the American economy artificially by investing huge amounts of money in such ways that they'd lift the economy back up, either through Reagenomics (already proven flawed by experience) or through the military complex, which has an exorbitant amount of civilian contracts and with the amount of money going around there IS a relevant mover of economies. The moment the well dries out, you dry out.
Military contracts are not going to dry out any time soon. PACOM is going to undergo one of the biggest changes in American naval history sense the USS Monitor.

Really? Right now you're growing a debt at an enormous rate despite a "healthy economy" to sustain a bloated military. Tell me exactly how you should be able to sustain it in, say, the next 10 years without collapsing your economy?
We'll have to. The military is not going to get smaller any time soon Kharn, and I hope you realize that. The Mid-East could and probably WILL get more violent in the short term, and we could be entering a Dreadnought-esque buildup to war with China pretty soon.

Your current debt is 8 trillion and you're not facing an internet bubble to help you recover speedily. Your argument is a non-argument.
I wish I had a crystal ball like you. That would be cool.

That argument has fucked up before, and it well might here. I'm very, very hesitant to proclaim the US economy dying after reading both Kennedy's book and the equally hilariously wrong
Hocus Pocus.

I suggest you pick up a book on geopolitics and consider the fact that 44% of your federal public debt is held by foreignors, 64% by banks including large chunks to Japan and China. If you don't understand the risk of this, like I said, pick up a book.

I understand the risks of it. It just so happen that I seriously doubt that in either of the above cases we will suffer any manner of debt crisis.

Putting you on the negative end of the stick, I hope you realise that. Producer/exporter countries have an inherent edge of consumer/importers, like yourself.
I don't agree with that for the most part. The Luddites made that argument about jobs going to India, only the Industrial Revolution happened. A lot of equally stupid people started predicting the end of American Economic hegemony during the 60's with the most destructive fad of history (Socialism) and the 80's with the decline in manufacturing jobs.

But you're right, that's how the global economy works, and it's the only thing that could save your sorry butts once the inevitable collapse comes, as nobody stands to profit from the US collapsing, anymore than anybody stands to profit from the EU collapsing.

Now who is the Determinist, Kharn? Euros are not destined to kill Euros but the USA is somehow *destined* to collapse economically?

I really think you need to learn more on a country's situation before blabbing your mouth about it. The reclaiming of Siberia are the kind of fears old wives living on the China-Russia border blab about and anyone with a hint of knowledge of the political situation knows that it's not only unlikely but practically impossible for a generation or two.

You think 50 Russian soldiers can still hold their ground against 2,000 Chinese soldiers?

Chechnya is 300 years old.
And it's been a strain on the Russian GDP for that long. As long as the Russian economy is not as big as the American and the Russian population not even close and shrinking, it will be more of a drain then Iraq-Afghanistan.

AIDs, drugs (to a lesser extent) and corruption (to a greater extent) are some of the only real problems you named. They're real problems, especially with the birt rate deficiencies, but they're not set to make the country collapse.

Collapse and not skyrocketing to Great Power status are two diffirent things, and I am arguing the second.

What you fail to realise is that Russia's current state is a result for a large part not so much of its Soviet heritage but of the heritage of Jeltsin's incompetent rule. Poetin showed pretty effectively in his first term, though less so in his second, that these *are* transitional, if real, problems.

Did not know that. Intersting.

The difference being that Russia has an enormous levy in terms of military, economics and natural resources. How effectively this will be used to battle the problems coming for the next two generations remains to be seen, but anybody who knows Russia fears for the short term, not the long term.
I'd be damned shocked if anyone ever doubted Russia's potential after Peter the Great. But Russia's potential and what has actually happened have proved to not be on speaking terms more often then not.
 
Graz'zt said:
Welcome to competitive sports. Like George Orwell remarked, competitive sports don't promote tolerance and friendship - quite the contrary, sports arenas are a breeding ground for intolerance, aggression and animosity, a natural habitat for various forms of primitivism and hate, places where people are sure give in to their most violent and destructive urges. The ultimate goal of a sports match is to defeat the opponent, to beat him into submission, to wreck his hopes and crush his spirit, to make him feel miserable and impotent in every imaginable way, both on and off the field. This primal behaviour may manifest itself as racist or chauvinist chanting or as a physical clash. It is irrelevant really - when the referee blows his whistle, signalling the beginning of the match, when the competitive spirit flares up and temperature reaches boiling point, crowds of sports fans will take the competition as far as the authorities will permit it and their cruelty will know no boundaries, and all the while their passionate hearts will beat righteously in their patriotic chests, creating a dire, vicious cacophony, and they will tear off the nearest chair and, screaming various obscenities, use it to sunder heads of their opponents, for they are The Enemy, The Ones who have come to hate, to threaten, to kill, and it is brave, righteous and necessary to smite them like bugs, in the name of thy Nation, thy God, thy Country, thy Race and thy Counter Strike clan.

its a very nice description of what happens in the madman's mind, yes. that's why you got conciouse and not primal instincts to dominate everything you can get a hold on.

i really would like to see you as a black person facing those calls, and see if you would justify this behaviour.
if it was dignified sport and not the violent negative stupid soccer, the judge would stop the whole game to educate those bastards, but this game is so fucking ruled by money that it'll never happen.
 
brandons said:
Sorry Graz, It seems like a poor excuse to me.

aegis said:
i really would like to see you as a black person facing those calls, and see if you would justify this behaviour.
How exactly am I "excusing" or "justifying" racism in sports? I merely explained that a stadium is an environment which encourages racism and violence. If anything, I am making a case against such behavioural patterns by pointing out that stadiums are the most notorious breeding ground of primitivism in the modern world.
 
Meanwhile they are still rioting in Paris and the problem is spreading.

Yes, we have our occassional race riots in the US, but they usually don't last two weeks!

And let's be fair- if immigrant muslims were all living in America's ghettos they would probably riot too, but instead they are sending their kids to school to be doctors, lawyers and engineers. Our ghettos are being reserved for poor blacks and hispanics.

November 7, 2005
First Death Is Reported in Paris Riots as Arson Increases
By CRAIG S. SMITH
PARIS, Monday, Nov. 8 - France's urban unrest claimed its first victim today when a 61-year-old man beaten by a hooded youth in the Parisian suburb of Stains last week died of his injuries.

The man, Jean-Jacques Le Chenadec, had been in a coma since being attacked while talking with a neighbor about their cars near a working-class housing development.

Word of his death came after escalating violence Sunday, when rioters fired shotguns at the police in a working-class suburb of Paris, wounding 10 officers. The police arrested 395 people across the country overnight, Michel Gaudin, chief of the French national police, told a news conference in Paris today.

On Sunday night alone, authorities said, more than 1,400 vehicles were burned in 274 towns across the country; the destruction stretched into the heart of Paris, where 35 vehicles were destroyed, and touched almost every major city in France The situation was so urgent that President Jacques Chirac called an emergency meeting of top security officials Sunday evening and promised increased police pressure to confront the violence.

An apparent copycat attack took place outside France for the first time, with Belgian police reporting today that five cars had been burned outside the main train station in Brussels.

Several countries, including Australia, Austria, Britain and Germany, advised their citizens to exercise care in France, joining the United States and Russia in warning tourists to stay away from violence-hit areas, news agencies reported.

The violence, which has become one of the most serious challenges to governmental authority here in nearly 40 years, showed no sign of abating. Sunday, the 11th night of violence, was the first that police officers had been wounded by gunfire in the unrest. Two of the officers were hospitalized, but their lives were not in danger, the police said. While there had been earlier reports of rioters firing weapons, the shootings Sunday marked the first time that police officers had been wounded by weapons since the riots began.

There have been 77 members of the police and 31 firemen injured since the unrest started.

Nearly 5,000 vehicles have been destroyed, along with dozens of public buildings and private businesses, since the violence began.

"This is just the beginning," said Moussa Diallo, 22, a tall, unemployed French-African man in Clichy-sous-Bois, the working-class Parisian suburb where the violence started Oct. 27. "It's not going to end until there are two policemen dead."

He was referring to the two teenage boys, one of Mauritanian origin and the other of Tunisian origin, whose accidental deaths while hiding from the police touched off the unrest, reflecting longstanding anger among many immigrant families here over joblessness and discrimination. Mr. Diallo did not say whether he had taken part in the vandalism.

Fires were burning in several places on Sunday night and hundreds of youths were reported to have clashed with the police in Grigny, a southern suburb of Paris where the shooting took place. On Saturday night, a car was rammed into the front of a McDonald's restaurant in the town.

"We have 10 policemen that were hit by gunfire in Grigny, and two of them are in the hospital," Patrick Hamon, a national police spokesman, said Monday morning.

He said one of the officers hospitalized had been hit in the neck, the other in the leg, but added that neither wound was considered life-threatening.

Rampaging youths have attacked the police and property in cities as far away as Toulouse and Marseille and in the resort towns of Cannes and Nice in the south, the industrial city of Lille in the north and Strasbourg to the east.

In Évreux, 60 miles west of Paris, shops, businesses, a post office and two schools were destroyed, along with at least 50 vehicles, in Saturday night's most concentrated attacks. Five police officers and three firefighters were injured in clashes with young rioters, a national police spokesman said.

Despite help from thousands of reinforcements, the police appeared powerless to stop the mayhem. As they apply pressure in one area, the attacks slip away to another.

On Sunday, a gaping hole exposed a charred wooden staircase of a smoke-blackened building in the historic Marais district of Paris, where a car was set ablaze the previous night. Florent Besnard, 24, said he and a friend had just turned into the quiet Rue Dupuis when they were passed by two running youths. Within seconds, a car farther up the street was engulfed in flames, its windows popping and tires exploding as the fire spread to the building and surrounding vehicles.

"I think it's going to continue," said Mr. Besnard, who is unemployed.

The attack angered people in the neighborhood, which includes the old Jewish quarter and is still a center of Jewish life in the city. "We escaped from Romania with nothing and came here and worked our fingers to the bone and never asked for anything, never complained," said Liliane Zump, a woman in her 70's, shaking with fury on the street outside the scarred building.

While the arson is more common than in the past, it has become a feature of life in the working-class suburbs, peopled primarily by North African and West African immigrants and their French-born children. Unemployment in the neighborhoods is double and sometimes triple the 10 percent national average, while incomes are about 40 percent lower.

While everyone seems to agree that the latest violence was touched off by the deaths of the teenagers last week, the unrest no longer has much to do with the incident.

"It was a good excuse, but it's fun to set cars on fire," said Mohamed Hammouti, a 15-year-old boy in Clichy-sous-Bois, sitting Sunday outside the gutted remnants of a gymnasium near his home. Like many people interviewed, he denied having participated in the violence.

Most people said they sensed that the escalation of the past few days had changed the rules of the game: besides the number of attacks, the level of destruction has grown sharply, with substantial businesses and public buildings going down in flames. Besides the gunfire on Sunday, residents of some high-rise apartment blocks have been throwing steel boccie balls and improvised explosives at national riot police officers patrolling below.

The police discovered what they described as a firebomb factory in a building in Évry, south of Paris, in which about 150 bombs were being constructed, a third of them ready to use. Six minors were arrested.

Many politicians have warned that the unrest may be coalescing into an organized movement, citing Internet chatter that is urging other poor neighborhoods across France to join in. The Justice Ministry announced today that it had arrested three youths who had called for rioting and attacks on police on their Web sites, though it stressed that the three did not know each other. No one has emerged to take the lead like Daniel Cohn-Bendit, known as Danny the Red, did during the violent student protests that rocked the French capital in 1968.

Though a majority of the youths committing the acts are Muslim, and of African or North African origin, the mayhem has yet to take on any ideological or religious overtones. Youths in the neighborhoods say second-generation Portuguese immigrants and even some children of native French have taken part.

In an effort to stop the attacks and distance them from Islam, France's most influential Islamic group issued a religious edict, or fatwa, condemning the violence. "It is formally forbidden for any Muslim seeking divine grace and satisfaction to participate in any action that blindly hits private or public property or could constitute an attack on someone's life," the fatwa said, citing the Koran and the teachings of Muhammad.

Young people in the poor neighborhoods incubating the violence have consistently complained that police harassment is mainly to blame. "If you're treated like a dog, you react like a dog," said Mr. Diallo of Clichy-sous-Bois, whose parents came to France from Mali decades ago.

The youths have singled out the French interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, complaining about his zero-tolerance anticrime drive and dismissive talk. (He famously called troublemakers in the poor neighborhoods dregs, using a French slur that offended many people.)

But Mr. Sarkozy has not wavered, and after suffering initial isolation within the government, with at least one minister openly criticizing him, the government has closed ranks around him. Mr. Chirac, who is under political and popular pressure to stop the violence, said Sunday that those responsible would face arrest and trial, echoing earlier vows by Mr. Sarkozy. More than 500 people have been arrested, some as young as 13.

"The republic is completely determined to be stronger than those who want to sow violence or fear," Mr. Chirac said at a news conference in the courtyard of Élysée Palace after meeting with his internal security council. "The last word must be from the law."

The government response is as much a test between Mr. Sarkozy and Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, both of whom want to succeed Mr. Chirac as president, as it is a test between the government and disaffected youths.

Mr. Villepin, a former foreign minister, has focused on a more diplomatic approach, consulting widely with community leaders and young second-generation immigrants to come up with a promised "action plan" that he said would address frustrations in the underprivileged neighborhoods. He has released no details of the plan.

If the damage escalates and sympathy for the rioters begins to fray, Mr. Sarkozy could well emerge the politically stronger of the two.

Thomas Crampton and Ariane Bernard contributed reporting for this article.




 
Double Post!
(Bah!)

More on this-

Unrest spreads from Paris to the provinces

Nov 7th 2005
From The Economist Global Agenda

Rioting that began almost two weeks ago in run-down suburbs of Paris intensified and spread to other French cities at the weekend. The unrest, led by the disaffected children of immigrants, could be the biggest challenge to the government's authority since the student riots of the 1960s.

You do realize it was a large bunch of these folks who went back to Algeria that probably got the Algerian War of Independence going.

It's hard to be proud of a system that treats you like a second class citizen.

(This rule applies equally to other countries with disenfranchised minority populations).

WHEN riots erupt in one of the biggest countries of the supposedly super-stable European Union (EU), it can be embarrassing for the government concerned. When those riots go on night after night for the best part of two weeks, only to continue getting worse, it starts to become truly alarming. On Sunday November 6th, the eleventh night in a row of unrest in France, the violence intensified and spread to new areas, despite promises from the country’s president and prime minister to stamp it out. What started with a few disaffected, mostly Muslim youths throwing rocks and burning cars on the outskirts of Paris is fast turning into a national crisis.

Hey it was a bunch of pissed off hookers taunting the masculinity of their clients that got the whole Bastille thing started a couple of hundred years ago.

The trouble began on October 27th, when two North African teenagers were electrocuted in the shabby Parisian suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois, apparently while fleeing the police. There followed a week of night-time riots in areas with large African and Arab communities in and around the capital. At the weekend, the government’s worst fears came true when the violence spread to other towns and cities. Of the 1,408 vehicles burnt on Sunday night, 982 were attacked outside the Paris region as the “shock wave” reached the rest of the country, in the words of Michel Gaudin, head of the national police.

Doesn't this all seem a bit too.... organized?

Some 395 people were arrested on Sunday, bringing the total number to over 800. The most serious incident took place in Grigny, south of Paris, where a mob on a housing estate ambushed police with stones, petrol bombs and even guns. Ten officers were injured, two seriously. Trouble was also reported in the provincial cities of Marseille, Lens, Saint-Etienne, Toulouse, Metz, Nice, Cannes, Strasbourg and Lille. In Strasbourg, home of the European Parliament, rioters threw petrol bombs into a primary school. In Toulouse, a blazing car was pushed into the entrance of a metro station and police had to use tear gas to disperse a mob wielding clubs.

I used to go out with a girl from Toulouse. Her name was Claire and I think she's either married or an attorney in Paris. Anyway, she really hated Muslims. Her folks had been settlers in Algeria and had gotten kicked out, and man she really hated them with a passion.

She must be loving this.

The French government has seemed at times to be at a loss over how to react to the violence, which is arguably the most serious challenge to its authority since the student riots that rocked Paris in 1968.

Bah! What a bunch of pussies. In the US we have riot police trained for this kind of thing. Tear gas cannisters, rubber bullets, stormtroopers with shields and batons. See the molotov cocktails fly through the sky....

Ministers held emergency talks last week to discuss “sensitive urban zones”, but these did little to reassure the public or stop the trouble. Meanwhile, President Jacques Chirac was widely criticised for remaining silent. On Sunday, he finally called a meeting of top security officials and addressed the public. “The republic is completely determined to be stronger than those who want to sow violence or fear,” he said. “The last word must be from the law.” But while Mr Chirac promised arrest and punishment for rioters, he added that “respect for all, justice and equal opportunity” were needed to end the violence. Jean-Marc Ayrault, leader of the opposition Socialist Party in parliament, wrote in Le Figaro, a daily, that “the least we can say is that the government’s response has been confused and weak.”

Someone might call this France's Katrina!
But let's face it, this isn't the 19th Century France when they seemed to have a revolution every 30 years! Where the streets ran red with blood as protestors fought over the ideals of the Republican against the power of the Aristocratic conservatives. Those were the days!

Modern France hasn't had enough turmoil over the last 50 or so years. This is long over due.

Many of those involved in the rioting blame the interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, for exacerbating tensions. Mr Sarkozy favours a zero-tolerance approach to urban violence, and in the days before the unrest began he angered many by calling troublemakers in poor districts “dregs”.

Actually didn't he call them "scum"? Or was that someone else?

But he has stood firm, and he remains popular: an opinion poll published in Le Parisien at the weekend gave him a nationwide approval rating of 57%. The current crisis has done nothing, so far, to dent his ambitions to succeed Mr Chirac as president.

The prime minister, Dominique de Villepin, who also has his eye on the presidency, has taken a more diplomatic approach, consulting with the leaders of immigrant communities and promising an “action plan” to address the anger of those in rundown neighbourhoods. He may release details of the plan on Monday evening, when he is expected to address the nation on television. A police organisation has called on the government to impose a curfew in riot-hit areas and send in the army to help restore order. Some 2,300 extra police officers have already been deployed.

What France really needs is the NRA coming in and preaching that this wouldn't happen if everyone had a gun. After more guns in the public lead to more deterrence (and dead husbands).

France is home to Europe’s biggest Muslim population—some 5m strong—and most of the youths confronting the police are French-born Muslims of Arab or African origin (though the children of Portuguese immigrants and native French are also reported to have taken part). In an effort to stop the violence and show it to be un-Islamic, one of France’s largest Muslim organisations has issued a fatwa, or religious order, forbidding “any action that blindly hits private or public property or could constitute an attack on someone’s life.”

ANd thinking of this as a religious thing misses the point, it seems. This sounds like its mostly a youth protest coming from a very unhappy community that has been left out of the good life.

High levels of disenchantment and relative deprivation.

With national unemployment of 10% and a poor Muslim population largely confined to grim suburban housing estates, where joblessness can be twice the national average or more, the ingredients for social explosion have long been brewing. Many feel trapped on the estates, which were built in the 1960s and 1970s to house waves of immigrant workers. The government, they say, has promised equality but failed to deliver. The hard-line policing methods espoused by Mr Sarkozy have added to their sense of grievance.

Unemployment leads to more time with which to riot. It's no wonder that you often find civil conflicts in places where there are lots of unemployed young men.

Equality? Fraternity? Property? Yeah... what else might these fools want?

French policies on religion may also play a part. The government has roundly rejected multiculturalism—the idea that different cultural communities should be allowed to follow their own way of life. As a result, there are no programmes to promote ethnic minorities out of their ghettos. The state keeps officialdom and religion firmly apart, and Mr Chirac has banned Muslim headscarves (as well as “conspicuous” crucifixes) in state schools. Many Muslims have come to feel stigmatised since the terrorist attacks of September 11th 2001, as France, along with other European countries, has cracked down on suspected Islamic extremists. Their sense of self-worth has hardly been boosted by growing French unease over allowing Muslim countries like Turkey into the EU.
 
Someone finally died from all of this.

I'm honestly sorry I laughed when I heard this. Can't say this is not France's fault, but a lot of innocent people are being hurt, and damn, not even I thought (hoped?) it would last for 13 days and keep getting worse.
 
ok sorry graz'zt it sounded from your words..

you know the similarity of these actions really reminds me of the intifada in israel when it started 15 years ago, however may people here would like to ignore this.
well its not "all hell broke loose" i think in england there were much worse situations there with the irish guyz...

demographics....question to all here who think they are modern thinking: do you think that countries should start making laws that would appear racist in order to preserve the country's original nature?
 
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