JE Sawyer on guns & gender

[Degas]

I thought the fast shot combined with Bonus rate of fire, and the gauss pistol was the deadliest combination? With 10+ AP and some critical boostage thats 4-5 dead anythings a turn.

Oh and this is sensible. Fallout 1 and 2 had way too many skills that were completely useless if you just wanted to play the game, not testing every single combination.

I wasnt able to do shit in the game before I read some guides extensively to learn that most skills were pointless. So this is a step in the right direction.

 

[flushfire]

No, a step in the right direction would be to make the skills that saw little use more useful by providing more opportunities to use them, NOT by removing them and adding their functionality to an already useful skill.

 

[Ausir]

Much of the functionality is added to a skill that isn't already useful - explosives. The only FO3 big gun added to guns is minigun.

 

[TheGM]

The argument is about the biased comment that Big Guns is a garbage skill. Then the same genius claimed the gauss is no doubt the best weapon and it is A LOT EASIER to get by with it than any other. It is true that before you get access to the guns in the Big Guns category it is rather useless. However that doesn't mean it's garbage. Using that as basis for judgement would mean that most other skills are garbage as well because you aren't able to use them all the time.

Blackened was just trying to prove that the Bozar isn't as inferior, thereby also proving that Big Guns has it's merits in FO2.

There won't be any argument anyway if the claim that gauss is the ultimate best weapon in the game and everything else is just garbage is true.

I am a genius. It is a garbage stat. And Small guns is just a more useful and practical skill to use, Big Guns is a combination of self gimping and what you feel like using. Small Guns is some what forced on you do to how useful it is. Now that there is no more Big Guns stat it gives me a reason to use those guns.

 

[Lexx]

Imo, the big weapons skill just needs at least one weapon, that has a single shoot modus, which will not accidentally harm other people around your target, while you hit your target. The only reason why you can't use minigun or rocket launcher all the time is, because the chance is high to damage your friends... or your friends damage you. So, a more or less "save"- non-spreading weapon should be a needed addon in this case.

Tho' this doesn't destroy Sawyers arguments about big weapons never showing up early in the game (what I still like anyway).

 

[mobucks]

man i could have sworn i read someone say in this thread science and repair were being combined... just skimmed, diddnt see it. Hmm i must be smoking crack. sorry for any confusion that caused.

IMO flamer as energy works as opposed to explosives bc the armor that defends against energy (heat of lazer, plazma, ect.) would perform well against a spray of burning ooze (flamer) as opposed to the shrapnel/concussion blast of explosives.

Meaning the type of damage the flamer does is closer to energy than explosives.

 

[aenemic]

Imo, the big weapons skill just needs at least one weapon, that has a single shoot modus, which will not accidentally harm other people around your target, while you hit your target. The only reason why you can't use minigun or rocket launcher all the time is, because the chance is high to damage your friends... or your friends damage you. So, a more or less "save"- non-spreading weapon should be a needed addon in this case.

Tho' this doesn't destroy Sawyers arguments about big weapons never showing up early in the game (what I still like anyway).

it would have been pretty nice if the Bozar had a single-shot mode or if they had added something like the M82 to the Big Guns category.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

IMO flamer as energy works as opposed to explosives bc the armor that defends against energy (heat of lazer, plazma, ect.) would perform well against a spray of burning ooze (flamer) as opposed to the shrapnel/concussion blast of explosives.

Except I'm sure that Molotov Cocktails and all incendiary explosives will still still be explosives. Explosives are really three damage types anyway: concussive, heat (least significant in non-incendiary weapons), and piercing (the shrapnel is what kills people at a distance).

it would have been pretty nice if the Bozar had a single-shot mode or if they had added something like the M82 to the Big Guns category.

I agree but it very well could have been a conscious decision not to in order to prevent big guns from being able to do pretty much anything.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Imo, the big weapons skill just needs at least one weapon, that has a single shoot modus, which will not accidentally harm other people around your target, while you hit your target. The only reason why you can't use minigun or rocket launcher all the time is, because the chance is high to damage your friends... or your friends damage you. So, a more or less "save"- non-spreading weapon should be a needed addon in this case.

Tho' this doesn't destroy Sawyers arguments about big weapons never showing up early in the game (what I still like anyway).

actualy quite many machineguns can be shoot with single shoots even those that dont have such an option. So it should be actualy a no brainer to give some heavy machinegun some option to fire a single bullet with descent accuracy. Most machineguns have anyway better accuracy then most assault rifles.

 

[flushfire]

I am a genius. It is a garbage stat. And Small guns is just a more useful and practical skill to use, Big Guns is a combination of self gimping and what you feel like using. Small Guns is some what forced on you do to how useful it is.

following your logic then everything else is garbage. melee builds are garbage. diplomacy builds are garbage. fast shot builds are garbage. they are all combinations of self-gimping and what you feel like using. you've been playing too many MMOs. the only problem with big guns is accessibility. the guns don't appear until mid-game. however by the time you get the guns the skill is just as effective (or better in certain situations) as small guns. hence the bozar vs gauss rifle argument. the skill can only be considered garbage if by the time you have access to big guns it is still inferior which isn't true.

Now that there is no more Big Guns stat it gives me a reason to use those guns.

Then combining all weapons under one skill won't be a big deal to you either, since you don't have any reason to go unarmed or use melee/energy weapons or explosives. genius.

 

[tekhedd]

Not so controversial

Again, it feeds my cautious optimism that this is as heated as the discussion has become over this "controversial" change. My personal reaction was "well, I dunno, that kinda makes sense".

I think that in concept big guns are very fun, which is really what makes the stat fun. It was never entirely logical, it's really more about RP coolness... Which also makes it kind of sad that they could be somewhat disappointing in F1-2.

In the context of the F3 engine, well, the changes described seem more or less logical. But that ammo had darn well better be heavy as sin!

 

[Mordegar]

As for the more Fallout 3 ish New Vegas, i can live with the idea of merging big guns with all other weapon types. I also hope that they will beef up unarmed and melee weapons too, cause choosing any of those 2 over a ranged weapon was a plain joke in F3.

 

[Ausir]

Again, it feeds my cautious optimism that this is as heated as the discussion has become over this "controversial" change. My personal reaction was "well, I dunno, that kinda makes sense".

It's actually much more heated among Fallout 3 fans, funny enough.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

following your logic then everything else is garbage. melee builds are garbage. diplomacy builds are garbage. fast shot builds are garbage. they are all combinations of self-gimping and what you feel like using. you've been playing too many MMOs.

Ah yes, the wonderful bs argument that because it's an RPG, balance doesn't matter. Skill balance is extremely important in RPGs because you want to make every skill equally useful in order to maximize the number of viable builds which the player can make/start with and minimize the number of shitty builds the player can make/start with (which hurts their experience). The idea is to allow players to play through the game in a variety of ways, each of which being notably different than the other.

And yes, melee builds are garbage when compared to any ranged build (arguably less so at the beginning compared to big guns and energy weapons). Diplomacy builds are not, they require more backtracking to make full use of them, but they offer a different experience. Fast shot builds are not garbage because they increase the number of shots per round (thus number of enemies killed) when built properly. There are crappy builds in Fallout and Fallout 2 as there are skills which are massively under utilized. The solutions are a combination of combining skills and increasing the number of uses of a skill. Every/the same outcome should not be available to every build, each should offer a different experience.

 

[TheGM]

following your logic then everything else is garbage. melee builds are garbage. diplomacy builds are garbage. fast shot builds are garbage. they are all combinations of self-gimping and what you feel like using. you've been playing too many MMOs.

Somebody is taking this very personal. heh heh. And MMOs? I have not and will not play any of those MMO games. So I don't have damn clue where that came from.

 

[.Pixote.]

I think the choice of skills were never the main problem – people can argue as to the merits of each skill, but ultimately I think many of the skills are let down by the story telling and their implementation in the game.

 

[flushfire]

Somebody is taking this very personal. heh heh. And MMOs? I have not and will not play any of those MMO games. So I don't have damn clue where that came from.

no, very personal would be attacking your english. MMO players usually advocate/follow a single "best" build, usually with the idea of being able to do everything or be at the top of a certain aspect with little care for creativity or role-play. the easier to play the better. that's where it came from.

Ah yes, the wonderful bs argument that because it's an RPG, balance doesn't matter.

never claimed.

Skill balance is extremely important in RPGs because you want to make every skill equally useful in order to maximize the number of viable builds which the player can make/start with and minimize the number of shitty builds the player can make/start with (which hurts their experience). The idea is to allow players to play through the game in a variety of ways, each of which being notably different than the other.

and that's why there is no real need to merge the functionality of a less used skill with one that is already useful. just makes the useful skill more imbalanced, if any. if the problem with big guns is accessibility, all that needs to be done is to make it more accessible. consider FO1-2, put big guns in small guns. would that solve the problem?

And yes, melee builds are garbage when compared to any ranged build (arguably less so at the beginning compared to big guns and energy weapons). Diplomacy builds are not, they require more backtracking to make full use of them, but they offer a different experience. Fast shot builds are not garbage because they increase the number of shots per round (thus number of enemies killed) when built properly. There are crappy builds in Fallout and Fallout 2 as there are skills which are massively under utilized. The solutions are a combination of combining skills and increasing the number of uses of a skill. Every/the same outcome should not be available to every build, each should offer a different experience.

melee offers a significantly different experience in combat, so why is it garbage? its easier to begin the game with it, the game can be finished with it. is it crappy when properly built? i don't think so. guns are just easier. anyway i don't think you disagree that big guns isn't garbage since you also said that fast shot builds are not. won't argue with that.

As for F:NV, unless they won't be adding any new weapons then sure, the merge is alright for balance. However if they are I don't see any reason why they don't just add low-end big guns & high-end small guns. its not like the distinction between weapons is clearer now with the flamer going to energy weapons.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

and that's why there is no real need to merge the functionality of a less used skill with one that is already useful. just makes the useful skill more imbalanced, if any. if the problem with big guns is accessibility, all that needs to be done is to make it more accessible. consider FO1-2, put big guns in small guns. would that solve the problem?

Only Miniguns are being merged with Small Guns, the rest are being merged with explosives with Flamers being merged with Energy Weapons. It makes the skills more balanced as it greatly improves Explosives. Having not played Fallout 3, I can't say whether or not Big Guns were trash in it but I see no reason for them to be inherently worse given the nature of the gameplay. That said, reducing the number of combat skills is probably for the best (assuming you can't max out every skill). Would you be against merging Unarmed and Melee Weapons? If so, why? What is so different about the weapons that they should be two seperate skills?

melee offers a significantly different experience in combat, so why is it garbage? its easier to begin the game with it, the game can be finished with it. is it crappy when properly built? i don't think so. guns are just easier. anyway i don't think you disagree that big guns isn't garbage since you also said that fast shot builds are not. won't argue with that.

Big Guns isn't garbage if you don't care about hitting things other than your target (ie allies and bystanders) but that isn't the case often enough that Big Guns is garbage when compared to the versatility of both Energy Weapons and Small Guns. It's the least useful of the gun skills, especially considering that miniguns (without crits) got absorbed by high armor enemies, if I remember right. Melee and Unarmed become decreasingly viable (they're pretty bad end game when compared to the alternatives) as the enemies you fight get more and better ranged weapons. They're damage outputs and range make them extremely dependent on criticals, even if you can get a large amount of attacks per round and pretty effectively sap an enemy's AP. The fact that you admit that guns are easily is admitting that guns are better than melee. Throwing is the worst combat skill.

 

[TheGM]

, very personal would be attacking your english. MMO players usually advocate/follow a single "best" build, usually with the idea of being able to do everything or be at the top of a certain aspect with little care for creativity or role-play. the easier to play the better. that's where it came from.

You could try to attack it. But it would prove futile as it is constructed out of truth and reason. Also comprehension of words of wisdom are not most people's thing.

Not my fault that Big guns is a garbage stat. But Small Guns and to some extent Energy weapons are just more viable when you take in account of all stats AND skills, availability, placement, etc.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

no, very personal would be attacking your english. MMO players usually advocate/follow a single "best" build, usually with the idea of being able to do everything or be at the top of a certain aspect with little care for creativity or role-play. the easier to play the better. that's where it came from.

Actually character optimization is done in most RPGs and tends to find balance problems. In PnP it's used to find loopholes with skills and ways to break the game that need to be fixed. I wanted Big Guns to be good the first time I played Fallout, I really wanted it but they just weren't good enough compared to the other options. They are much more viable in Tactics but I'd say that's largely due to the differences gameplay (combat oriented game, combat oriented maps, full control of allies, better big guns). That said, Tactics is a different genre of game.