Jesse Heinig on ghouls and FEV

Brother None

This ghoul has seen it all
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Is ghoulification influenced by FEV or not? We'll never know, for reasons Fallout 1 programmer and designer Jesse Heinig explains here, giving his own perspective on the matter as well.<blockquote>Notably, Fallout (as a franchise) has a lot of post facto development. The whole notion of the Vaults-as-experiments was largely introduced in Fallout 2, after all. If Fallout says that ghouls were products of huge overexposure to radiation, Fallout 2 hints that maybe some FEV is involved, and Fallout 3 says that there is also a mysterious X-factor (which is how they get the Lesser Rad Orb power, I guess), it's quite possibly just another case of post facto design: "No, wait, you thought it was this, but it's actually this other thing!"

I have a strong suspicion that FEV was not central to the ghouls in FO1, and here's why: FEV is an important plot point; the dip that the Master uses to create Super Mutants is a type of FEV cocktail. If FEV is that central to the story, then having another group that's FEV-affected -- the ghouls -- would mean that this connection should be somehow important. Dramatically, you can't just drop in a group that has some sort of tie to the central "prime mover" of the story's villains and then fail to explore it. I don't recall ever seeing any cut documentation for design of ghouls that would talk about FEV or their connection to the whole evolutionary project -- even as a failure or unintended side-effect -- which means that when the ghouls were first conceptualized, they probably didn't have an FEV connection. Instead, the importance of the ghouls is partly symbolic (as a prior poster pointed out, they show the burned-out remnants of humanity living among the burned-out remnants of the world) and partly as a moral dilemma for players who are given the choice to steal the source of the ghouls' fresh water and thereby placed in the position of pitting the interests of the home (Vault 13) community versus the community of "subhumans and monsters." The ghouls can stand on their own in that regard -- and the fact that they have a society shows that they are a self-contained story element; in a sense, ghouls are like the ultimate victims in Fallout: They are always getting a raw deal, first from flesh-rotting ghoulification, but then from Super Mutants, "smoothskins," even the damn trees. If FEV were responsible for ghoulification, then, it would be important to explore this plot thread. Since it was never explored, even in any design doc that I remember reading . . . probably wasn't an initial impetus.

That doesn't make it any less valid now, of course, if you can find an interesting way to tell a story about it while retaining internal consistency (in the same way that Zelazny does in his Amber novels, where it seems that every few chapters he turns your expectations of the world upside down while still retaining his own consistency).</blockquote>
 
FEV was used as an explanation of all mutations as early as in this Vault 13: A GURPS Post-Nuclear Adventure timeline by Scott Campbell and Brian Freyermuth, which is the oldest design document to ever be released to the public.

The first effects of the virus are seen in the survivors. Widespread mutations occur with animals and humans alike. Those that survive the effects of the mutations, are permanently changed by the virus. New species are created almost overnight.

As a side note, it is mentioned that the virus had unpredictable effects under high radiation.

The timeline also says, though that:

Much to his dismay, the Master learns that these ghouls are the descendants of the Vault dwellers; the result of a defective radiation screening.

Even Chris Taylor and Tim Cain disagree on the origins of ghouls, anyway.
 
FEV-1
The subjects experience abnormal brain tissue growth that causes insanity in many patients. Unusual deformities slowly follow. Some subjects experience infertility or a severe form of leprosy; some even experience altering skeletal growth.
The latter part sounds pretty ghoulish and certainly super mutantish but the former part sounds more chimera-ish and master-ish (though Beth could have pointed to this as an explanation for Feral Ghouls...).

The first effects of the virus are seen in the survivors. Widespread mutations occur with animals and humans alike. Those that survive the effects of the mutations, are permanently changed by the virus. New species are created almost overnight.
I think of this as more like Centaurs and Floaters rather than Ghouls but it's definitely wide open. The specific mention of the master discovering that Ghouls were the result of a defective radiation screening and Harold not being considered a Ghoul, make me think that the former is more likely though.

As a side note, it is mentioned that the virus had unpredictable effects under high radiation.
Which may refer specifically to Harold.

I always thought that they were a created by radiation, mainly due to Necropolis and classic sci-fy, but I guess a small amount of FEV in the air would be reasonable as well.
 
FEV doesn't make sense. Based on all the conversations I remembered from FO1 & FO2 mutants came long after ghouls who were a product of the bomb-drop.
 
Super mutants are the result of *a lot* FEV. So I don't see a problem here.
 
If FEV caused the ghouls, I think it largely removes a lot of the post-nuclear stigma of radiation and the dangers of a nuclear holocaust. Radiation works for me largely to make the mood of the game more pronounced.
 
TheRatKing said:
If FEV caused the ghouls, I think it largely removes a lot of the post-nuclear stigma of radiation and the dangers of a nuclear holocaust. Radiation works for me largely to make the mood of the game more pronounced.

This, and more. Very important part of fallout world that Bethesda doesn't understand. I actually don't know what part at all they understand. Nukes are fun?! :roll:

I always imagined ghouls as a pure radiation inflicted state. Just that. I think it's unnecessary to complicate things with FEV. Specially treated humans which have become super mutants of all kinds – those are primarily FEV induced effects. That's all for me.

I knew it was inevitable, but it's still shocking – Beth's Fallout 3 has become the canon... Next fallout game: "Fallout: Aliens vs samurai vs vampires" *looking around to hang himself*
 
It wasn't Bethesda that made ghouls a product of FEV. It was the version of Chris Taylor, lead designer of Fallout 1. Tim Cain disagrees, though.
 
Radiation was never a big part in any early Fallout game. In Fallout 1 we got just the Glow and in Fallout 2 it was only some critters in encounters that could radiate you (if I remember correct. If I don't remember correct, Ausir will actually me anyway :>).

While I agree that Fallout 3 made this "lol, atombomz" stuff over the top stupid, I don't agree that radiation is some very important element in the games.
 
Lexx said:
Radiation was never a big part in any early Fallout game. In Fallout 1 we got just the Glow and in Fallout 2 it was only some critters in encounters that could radiate you (if I remember correct. If I don't remember correct, Ausir will actually me anyway :>).

While I agree that Fallout 3 made this "lol, atombomz" stuff over the top stupid, I don't agree that radiation is some very important element in the games.
For me, great deal of post-apocaliptic feel in fallout world is a sense of utter poisoness of the world with radiation. It's not explicit (that's the main point that Beth. don't understand about this part imo) – main point is that it's subtle feel that everything that you touch is contaminated and that "we" are guilty for that. A whole nihilistic, post-apoc feel is a result of our wrong doings and the radiation is a punishment. Radiation is the Evil - maybe not visible at first sight, but always present in the background and ultimately main moving force (reason) for whole post-apoc drama that we are roleplaying.
 
The Glow was a hell of a major area in terms of theme and setting.
Also if you take into account all the mutated animals in both original games, radiation is everywhere.
 
Unless you go with the version with FEV as the cause of all mutations, which was actually in the original design.
 
Jesse Heinig said:
Pff, I'm just another person like anyone else, and not even very high on the totem pole of Fallout designers.

There are ways to change that, have you ever considered blackmail?

People become very cooperative when you have the right incentive.
 
The Dutch Ghost said:
Jesse Heinig said:
Pff, I'm just another person like anyone else, and not even very high on the totem pole of Fallout designers.

There are ways to change that, have you ever considered blackmail?

People become very cooperative when you have the right incentive.

Naw, I like having a high karma rating, and I have too much respect for the other Fallout devs to actually stoop to something like petty infighting over reputation with them. :)
 
i always understood that ghouls were product of radiation, not fev, which is why they can tolerate and even thrive in high radiation areas.
 
Jesse Heinig said:
Slow news day? ;)

It's always a slow news day. But I like developer quotes, they're interesting. Mostly I wanted to get the viewpoint of post facto design in here because honestly this factor is ignored a bit too much...

I think in the end Fallout suffers under it, making shit up on the fly is the worst version of post facto design.

But I like the ghouls FEV-vs-radiation design. It's like our dorky Han Solo Shot First debate.
 
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