Ok but will they have a fort made of corrugated metal walls and canvas tents? Yeah, that’s what I thought.
Lanius's bad reputation is undeserved
- Thread starter Apollyon
- Start date
Ugly Kid
Still Mildly Glowing
I will chime in, nearly a year after the conversation has subsided. I think that Lanius and Vulpes could run the Legion together and become the best Legion that could exist. I don't mean a dynamic duo, I mean Vulpes could give his thoughts to Lanius and and even have major say in many decisions the Legion makes.
Malpais Dominus
First time out of the vault
I think Lanius is a good leader but not the right leader for what Caesar's ultimate vision is. Lanius would keep the Legion a well oiled war machine that continued to obliterate every force that came in it's path but would also leave nothing behind but war. Caesar wants the Legion to put roots down in Vegas and create a metropolitan empire. He wants to evolve the Legion into a cultural force as well as a military one. With Lanius the Legion would be more of a Mongol Empire instead of a Roman Empire imo.
As far as being "reasonable" I think lot of people far overstate the significance of being able to talk him down at the end. To me that says more about a Courier with a 100 in speech than anything about Lanius. Going with him being the final boss thematically that should be the Courier's hardest "sell" to convince someone of something. It's so significant because Lanius is so implacable.
As far as being "reasonable" I think lot of people far overstate the significance of being able to talk him down at the end. To me that says more about a Courier with a 100 in speech than anything about Lanius. Going with him being the final boss thematically that should be the Courier's hardest "sell" to convince someone of something. It's so significant because Lanius is so implacable.
I think Lanius would put on a set of sexy sleepwear and go gambling at Gomorrah before he took the advice of the slippery fox man.
Apollyon
It Wandered In From the Wastes
For some reason, recently this topic popped back into my head and I wanted to share some thoughts.
Caesar:
- Physically unremarkable
- Petty, vengeful character
- Emotional decision-making
- Crude, disrespectful
Lanius:
- Extremely physically capable
- Stoic, pragmatic
- Eloquent
- Respectful, shows martial honor
In many ways Lanius is a way more perfect embodiement of the ideals Caesar seeks to uphold. He is a walking avatar of Mars. What I find very odd, and I think cannot be coincidence, is that the description that other people give of Lanius does not match up with the character we see in-game. Lanius is framed as a savage numerous times, even by Caesar himself, yet when we meet Lanius in-game he clearly is not a savage.
Caesar even specifically calls him not a great man even though Lanius seems to be a proper emperor, and Caesar merely a mob boss. A mob boss who reads books and copies ideas from them, but never fully embodies these ideas like Lanius does.
Caesar:
- Physically unremarkable
- Petty, vengeful character
- Emotional decision-making
- Crude, disrespectful
Lanius:
- Extremely physically capable
- Stoic, pragmatic
- Eloquent
- Respectful, shows martial honor
In many ways Lanius is a way more perfect embodiement of the ideals Caesar seeks to uphold. He is a walking avatar of Mars. What I find very odd, and I think cannot be coincidence, is that the description that other people give of Lanius does not match up with the character we see in-game. Lanius is framed as a savage numerous times, even by Caesar himself, yet when we meet Lanius in-game he clearly is not a savage.
Caesar even specifically calls him not a great man even though Lanius seems to be a proper emperor, and Caesar merely a mob boss. A mob boss who reads books and copies ideas from them, but never fully embodies these ideas like Lanius does.
Alphons
National Beholder
Lanius we hear about is a character, a boogeyman for the profligates and a symbol for legionaires.
Do we even meet Lanius? They say that his mask conceals scars, yet when you take his helmet off the man underneath it is completely plain.
Do we even meet Lanius? They say that his mask conceals scars, yet when you take his helmet off the man underneath it is completely plain.
LuciusCorneliusSulla
First time out of the vault
I actually think Lanius is a great candidate for the Legion and in many ways preferable to Caesar. The primary flaw of the Legion is that Caesar is a man obsessed with his dream and may be rushing things far too quickly. Now, he did have a tumor so some of the confusion and mistakes is easily explainable, but the mark left on the man who united the Eighty Six tribes. Caesar makes contradicting promises which the player (most likely due to lack of time) is never able to question. For one thing, he promises to reform the tribes. This is important because some of the initial foundation Caesar attempted to lay down to convert the Legion from Tribals to a civilized people in their own right has either been misinterpreted (As was the case when Caesar tried to get them to worship Mars and they worshipped him instead) or outright hasn't taken root at all (As is the case where the Legion disdains civilian life as 'profligacy'). This may be a great culture for a nomadic army, but not for what Caesar had in mind. To Caesar's credit, he's not unaware of this and plans to use NCR influence and reform the Legion.
The issue comes in when Caesar also blatantly plans to invade the NCR after taking New Vegas. Now, yes, the Legion are all highly trained and individually incredibly talented compared to the NCR who's leadership is poor and soldiers ill equipped and trained for the most part. But the Legion's biggest issue has always been and will always be manpower in its current state. Caesar, even if he has 20 years more to live, would not be able to BOTH settle the Legion and reform its culture AND invade the NCR. The second part may not even be possible and would easily doom the Legion to either suffer a defeat they couldn't afford or realize too late that the attrition has crippled their nation (NCR manpower compared to Legion's is no joke).
Lanius on the other hand actually voices doubt and concern over the necessity of taking New Vegas. The East would be hard to maintain with the Legion's current manpower and the Legate is well aware of Caesar's intentions to invade the NCR as well. Under Lanius, the Legion wouldn't change too much *culturally* (maybe besides heavier worship to Mars who Lanius seems to be a devout follower), sure. But it would certainly change. With the Legate's acknowledgement of the important of Logistics most likely there would be some degree of reforms related to agriculture. Current Legion policy is to leave the towns they own alone and take tribute. Most likely he would change the policy to force the towns to convert to farming communities and start taking soldiers from these towns. As conquering new tribes can replenish some of the Legion (as evidence by Lanius gaining more after Hoover Dam) but they are a non-renewable resource. Some Legionaries are born in the Legion but the death rate among infants is high due to the refusal of using technology. This is why, though conjecture, I believe he'd most likely reform the current Legion holdings to focus on food supply which is vital for manpower and logistics making him a great candidate.
The other candidates that we know of: Vulpes, leader of the Frumentarii and Lucius, most veteran of Caesar's bodyguards deserve to be analyzed as well. Vulpes Inculta is the leader of the Frumentarii and one of the most vital aspects of the Legion's current reliance on asymmetrical warfare. The concept is often that Lanius wouldn't be able to perform this role as well as Vulpes could, which could be true. It is certainly the case that Lanius remarks that such 'tricks' are unbefitting of him and that Vulpes voices concern if Lanius inherits the Legion. Another suggestion is that Vulpes knows Caesar mind and would be the best option to make Caesar's reforms actually happen which is a little far fetched in my opinion. It's certainly true that Vulpes is highly valued by Caesar and that Vulpes is well known for believing in Legion Philosophy. But that's kind of the catch there, isn't it? Vulpes wholeheartedly believes in Legion philosophy...current legion philosophy. The concept that he'd change the Legion in any manner is low from what we know of the character besides maybe introducing some flexibility on the Legion's current motto which prevents a Legionary or Commander from adapting due to the punishment for ignoring orders being death. Two incidents where this was an issue is where Vulpes was almost crucified for ignoring orders to win a battle before Caesar saved him and Dead Sea is following strict orders to stay still despite doing so gives the Forlorn Hope time to recover enough to assault Nelson (I can explain this more in depth if needed, to summarize they have the advantage initially but that can be lost and waiting isn't in their favour).
And Lucius, to be completely honest i'm not sure why he'd be a candidate for inheriting the Legion besides being a veteran member and being trusted by Caesar. If it's the "He knows Caesar's mind well" that I really couldn't credit for any Legion character. I personally believe Caesar only mentions the possibility of reform to the Courier as the Legion may have mixed receptions to it and Caesar wants to win the Courier over. Also, the possibility exists that other Legates in other regions or civil administrators in other regions who aren't known would take precedent before even Vulpes after Lanius to inherit, let alone Lucius. I'm more than willing to hear a different take on that though.
EDIT: I forgot to mention this but I also don't believe that Lanius would stop using Frumentarii or Vulpes' talents. I do agree asymmetrical warfare would no longer be the Legion's main method of war but the information network wouldn't disappear. Whether Vulpes could agree to that change where there would inevitably be needless casualties is another story and completely in the realm of fan fiction.
EDIT 2: Read the rest of the thread, LOL @ the guy who is claiming guerilla warfare is easy to do. Most likely comes from the meme concept that the Vietcong were 'rice farmers who easily beat the USA'. Completely understates their victory by doing so, incredibly dense.
The issue comes in when Caesar also blatantly plans to invade the NCR after taking New Vegas. Now, yes, the Legion are all highly trained and individually incredibly talented compared to the NCR who's leadership is poor and soldiers ill equipped and trained for the most part. But the Legion's biggest issue has always been and will always be manpower in its current state. Caesar, even if he has 20 years more to live, would not be able to BOTH settle the Legion and reform its culture AND invade the NCR. The second part may not even be possible and would easily doom the Legion to either suffer a defeat they couldn't afford or realize too late that the attrition has crippled their nation (NCR manpower compared to Legion's is no joke).
Lanius on the other hand actually voices doubt and concern over the necessity of taking New Vegas. The East would be hard to maintain with the Legion's current manpower and the Legate is well aware of Caesar's intentions to invade the NCR as well. Under Lanius, the Legion wouldn't change too much *culturally* (maybe besides heavier worship to Mars who Lanius seems to be a devout follower), sure. But it would certainly change. With the Legate's acknowledgement of the important of Logistics most likely there would be some degree of reforms related to agriculture. Current Legion policy is to leave the towns they own alone and take tribute. Most likely he would change the policy to force the towns to convert to farming communities and start taking soldiers from these towns. As conquering new tribes can replenish some of the Legion (as evidence by Lanius gaining more after Hoover Dam) but they are a non-renewable resource. Some Legionaries are born in the Legion but the death rate among infants is high due to the refusal of using technology. This is why, though conjecture, I believe he'd most likely reform the current Legion holdings to focus on food supply which is vital for manpower and logistics making him a great candidate.
The other candidates that we know of: Vulpes, leader of the Frumentarii and Lucius, most veteran of Caesar's bodyguards deserve to be analyzed as well. Vulpes Inculta is the leader of the Frumentarii and one of the most vital aspects of the Legion's current reliance on asymmetrical warfare. The concept is often that Lanius wouldn't be able to perform this role as well as Vulpes could, which could be true. It is certainly the case that Lanius remarks that such 'tricks' are unbefitting of him and that Vulpes voices concern if Lanius inherits the Legion. Another suggestion is that Vulpes knows Caesar mind and would be the best option to make Caesar's reforms actually happen which is a little far fetched in my opinion. It's certainly true that Vulpes is highly valued by Caesar and that Vulpes is well known for believing in Legion Philosophy. But that's kind of the catch there, isn't it? Vulpes wholeheartedly believes in Legion philosophy...current legion philosophy. The concept that he'd change the Legion in any manner is low from what we know of the character besides maybe introducing some flexibility on the Legion's current motto which prevents a Legionary or Commander from adapting due to the punishment for ignoring orders being death. Two incidents where this was an issue is where Vulpes was almost crucified for ignoring orders to win a battle before Caesar saved him and Dead Sea is following strict orders to stay still despite doing so gives the Forlorn Hope time to recover enough to assault Nelson (I can explain this more in depth if needed, to summarize they have the advantage initially but that can be lost and waiting isn't in their favour).
And Lucius, to be completely honest i'm not sure why he'd be a candidate for inheriting the Legion besides being a veteran member and being trusted by Caesar. If it's the "He knows Caesar's mind well" that I really couldn't credit for any Legion character. I personally believe Caesar only mentions the possibility of reform to the Courier as the Legion may have mixed receptions to it and Caesar wants to win the Courier over. Also, the possibility exists that other Legates in other regions or civil administrators in other regions who aren't known would take precedent before even Vulpes after Lanius to inherit, let alone Lucius. I'm more than willing to hear a different take on that though.
EDIT: I forgot to mention this but I also don't believe that Lanius would stop using Frumentarii or Vulpes' talents. I do agree asymmetrical warfare would no longer be the Legion's main method of war but the information network wouldn't disappear. Whether Vulpes could agree to that change where there would inevitably be needless casualties is another story and completely in the realm of fan fiction.
EDIT 2: Read the rest of the thread, LOL @ the guy who is claiming guerilla warfare is easy to do. Most likely comes from the meme concept that the Vietcong were 'rice farmers who easily beat the USA'. Completely understates their victory by doing so, incredibly dense.
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James Blackdeer
First time out of the vault
Lanius doesn't believe in the Legion or its philosophy at all, the only thing he believes in is Caesar. He will do whatever Caesar wants, even if he thinks it is not the best choice. He correctly states that New Vegas and the Mojave as a whole is not a treasure that Caesar seems to believe, but a trap that will cause the downfall of the Legion in one way or another.
Lanius himself believes that the future of the Legion lies East, not West, as the West has the largest state in the lore sitting there, waiting for some kind of outside enemy to turn the disgruntled citizens attention to, so they don't pay attention to the rampant corruption. The East doesn't have much of anything, I don't recall if there was much lore established around Southern USA, specifically Texas, but so far there hasn't been any sort of state that even compares to having the military, industrial, or even population might that the NCR possesses.
And while Lanius isn't the brightest knife in the sky, he is a seasoned leader, he conquered many peoples and conquered most of Colorado, nearly doubling the size of the Legion. During this Eastern Campaign, he stretched Legion supply lines too far, causing massive losses due to environmental attrition as well as combat related losses. But the lack of food, water, and reinforcements was not unnoticed. Lanius was able to adapt and become a better military leader as he paid more attention to logistics and planning. To say he is nothing more than a savage who relied on overwhelming numbers and brute force to deal with enemies can be said, but he is savage who can supply and lead those overwhelming numbers.
Lanius himself believes that the future of the Legion lies East, not West, as the West has the largest state in the lore sitting there, waiting for some kind of outside enemy to turn the disgruntled citizens attention to, so they don't pay attention to the rampant corruption. The East doesn't have much of anything, I don't recall if there was much lore established around Southern USA, specifically Texas, but so far there hasn't been any sort of state that even compares to having the military, industrial, or even population might that the NCR possesses.
And while Lanius isn't the brightest knife in the sky, he is a seasoned leader, he conquered many peoples and conquered most of Colorado, nearly doubling the size of the Legion. During this Eastern Campaign, he stretched Legion supply lines too far, causing massive losses due to environmental attrition as well as combat related losses. But the lack of food, water, and reinforcements was not unnoticed. Lanius was able to adapt and become a better military leader as he paid more attention to logistics and planning. To say he is nothing more than a savage who relied on overwhelming numbers and brute force to deal with enemies can be said, but he is savage who can supply and lead those overwhelming numbers.