Left wing Fascism And Freedom of speech.(oohh controversial)

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Spoonfeed, Jan 30, 2009.

  1. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Well even athemism can become a religion of some sort you know.

    Fighting aginst god. How can you fight again something you dont believ in the first place?

    (I know its not that simple cause you have here as well Agnosticism ... but just for a thought)
     
  2. M-26-7

    M-26-7 Still Mildly Glowing

    246
    Jul 20, 2008
    Not respecting all the rules of your faith, at least in Christianity, is inherent part of being of that religion. It all goes back to taht "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone" stuff, the idea that everyone is imperfect and that no one is able to completely good all the time. Not only that but both "True Christians" and "True Muslims" misinterpret their holy books a lot more than the non-psychotic do. For instance Fundamentalists Christians don't understand, metaphor, deeper meaning, and various poetic devices, so to them everything in the Bible is completely literal. Even if you do believe that everything in the Bible is God's word, then you should at least be able to understand he wasn't actually wrestling with God or an angel, he was mentally wrestling with the concept.
     
  3. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    A lot of "intelligent" christians dont say without a reason God moves in mysterious ways.

    One who takes any book literaly should be carefull not to do the wrong thing. Regardles if it is the Quaran the Bible or his physic book in school.
     
  4. Mord_Sith

    Mord_Sith Mildly Dipped

    588
    Sep 21, 2007
    I'd like to point out in my last message I said 'Extremists' for a reason...

    Also, GWB is a moron, pure and simple, a bloody monkey on a pedestal, but then again I'm Canadian and I got a head of parliament kissing his arse...

    The quote 'God moves in mysterious ways' is part of belief, not an excuse for their actions, my parents have been church-jumping for a while now, trying to find a like-minded pastor, various reasons come about why they haven't found one yet.

    The most ironic one I've heard from them so far is that they left a church because the pastor set up an anti-muslim video, they left after they realized just what they were watching.

    The sad thing is that these are Lutheran churches, not Catholic, but still my point to this little story is that even though crap like this surfaces, there are far fewer people who are willing to kill someone at least here in Canuckland, in the name of religion, than off in the Gaza strip, where the whole cause of the war is exactly that.

    And no, they haven't found one yet that's lasted longer than a year >.> thankfully I am not dragged around with them all the time or I'd probably go loopy.
     
  5. Eyenixon

    Eyenixon Vault Senior Citizen

    Apr 11, 2008
    You generalized.
    There's no way out of it, tee hee.

    This is why religion is the least of the problem, perhaps if everyone was an individual we could point fingers, but as it is, most atheist zealots are just as mindless as the religious zealots.
    Stringent unquestioning belief in anything, even the belief in the lack of a thing called God, is always irrational, especially so when you attempt to force others unto your belief.

    Everyone thinks the other is wrong, atheist, Muslim, Christian, Catholic, Jewish, no matter what.

    Discuss greater ideals, not human mechanizations of organized thought, only then will you be "better" than those that wish to subject others to their belief.
    The greatest philosophers never seek to have their answers make more sense than any other, they simply seek what makes the most sense to them, and perhaps then the next great philosopher will find his own sense in that which he cannot understand in the last great philosopher's words.
     
  6. Zeal

    Zeal Still Mildly Glowing

    221
    Apr 20, 2003
    Re: Left wing Fascism And Freedom of speech.(oohh controvers

    History is cyclic, what you gona do?

    Edit: btw the barbarians had little to do with the fall of rome, was more like a coup de grace.

    its the same thing like saying Bizantine fell due to the turks, while we all know what the crusades and the crusaders done to it...

    One of the principal factores, not to say "the factor", of rome demise was a religion.

    Funny, history really is cyclic!!!
     
  7. Spoonfeed

    Spoonfeed It Wandered In From the Wastes

    116
    Nov 3, 2008
    Okay, one reply at a time, seems lots of people replied to one of the less interesting rants i've pulled off in time.

    Editing this post to add quotes and replies. (5 or so edits so far, edit-tracker is not keeping up)

    (Mods, disregard this, understand now why my sig was changed, thanks.)

    I was never going to make an interesting point, i was just coining some of my concerns in a populistic way to see what reactions it would reap.
    But your point is valid, I am a hatefull, angsty bastard, I don't feel much for re-reading that overpraised poetrybook;

    It gave me some "usefull" insights on life, but never was intended for me; I tend to question most dogmas i read.
    Masturbation part was ace though.

    I do realise that "not all muslims" are bad, but my point is, that I never see any practicing muslims condemn the actions of the terrorist muslims WITHOUT being threatened to death by the rest of the muslim community.

    I would, but the "problem" lies that I work 40 hours a week, so my girlfriend is traveling alot by herself, thus coming in contact with these OH SO civilized muslims, who can't keep their filthy hands to themselves if they see even the slightest bit of femininity in any lady they encounter.

    Ahh, a decent flame. It was the angle I was going for by the way; Stereotypical crazed, angsty and tired racist.

    On to the reply;
    Then why is hate-speeching not allowed for Nonbelievers? They could argue racism is a belief, just as 5 percenters believe that the white man is the devil, and the black man the incarnation of god.

    Could you also tell me why even the non-extremist muslims still cling to the same values as their militant brothers?
    Even the most non-extreme muslims tend to have values that are completely incompatible with our society.

    I have no problems with people being foreign in general, I was raised in a "red" family, and have met and "hung" with people of all across the globe all my life.

    I have, however, not met a single educated, well mannered muslim.
    So i "might" be biased, this might also be because of me growing up in the formerly best, future worst part of Amsterdam.

    Extreme christians do not support terrorist nations openly, matter of fact, extreme christians are too chicken to actually condemn the
    situation in Israel.

    But, i was simply speaking about the attitude from the left-wing elite towards the invading muslims; that, and the fact that christians are usually not as rape-y as muslims.

    Not that extremists anything are worth the oxygen they breathe, but that would include me; extremist bastards.

    I'm not so much for "protecting our culture" as I am for ensuring a pleasant place to live for the civilians of our once great nation.

    Doctors without borders lied because the Video was pulled from CNN after the word got out it was not a genuine scene, and was staged.

    I have yet to see people like edrogan condemn the actions of hamas, instead they go "AMG THEY IS BULLYING THE PEOPLE IN GAZA"
    I have, however, seen countless of demonstrations, where jews had to fear for their lives, while "peacefull" protesters burn the flags of the jewish nation and shout holocaust-inspired powerphrases.

    I have yet to see a PUBLIC outcry of the muslim world, telling us that they condemn the actions of every single hamas supporting potential terrorist invader.

    Please point me in the right direction, because I'm having trouble finding it on "islam.com" or "marokko.nl"

    So, if I claim that I'm a religious believer that all muslims are rapist, rabid dogs that need to be put down, I get away with it because it's my religion?

    But if I were to do it WITHOUT clinging to a religion, I'd get arrested, how retarded is that?
    That's not freedom, that's union of church and state, ANOTHER high-treason move from our oh so lovely government.(see treaty of lissabon for more high treason in europe from the left-wing elite)

    Even worse, as the trias politica has degenerated with the political arrest of nekschot, directly ordered by parliament, thus resulting in a single power, as opposed to three.

    My biggest beef is not with the muslims, for they are often poor, misguided, and sometimes even inbred people.
    MY biggest beef lies with the people that keep on endorsing their wicked ways, and that they are not here to destroy our society, even though that's literally what they claim to be planning, they support them in saying that we are the loathesome ones, and that we should better give them everything they want, or they will beat up our grandma's.

    I have even heard an official statement of I believe Ahmed Marcouch, a muslim official in holland, that said:
    "If <insert> is not done, we cannot be held accountable for the actions of our followers"
    which is, if I'm not mistaken, something hitler said to parliament about his brown-shirts.
    I am against comparing every dog and his day to hitler and his consorts, but this was blatantly quoting the guy.

    Thanks for the replies folks, will see if there's anything to be added later on.
    Apologies for anyone who I offended by questioning the beautifull multicultural dream.
     
  8. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    May 18, 2003
    Get a girl with a drivers' license. End of story.
     
  9. Spoonfeed

    Spoonfeed It Wandered In From the Wastes

    116
    Nov 3, 2008
    She has one, as opposed to me, but since owning a car is a luxury most students can't afford, so can't she.

    And you think it's NORMAL for a citizen of his/her own country to be forced to buy a car, because the public transportation does not make them feel safe or comfortable....
    That's pure terrorism for you, giving in to that is giving in to bullies.

    Trust me, I want to stop hating the muslim community, but they make it so hard...

    Perhaps a chemical lobotomy would help for me, ignorance is bliss, after all.
    *downs 5ML of ketamine*
     
  10. Jack The Knife

    Jack The Knife It Wandered In From the Wastes

    180
    Dec 20, 2006
    Guns don't kill people, religion kills people.

    Religion is bad m'kay.
     
  11. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Perhaps you need to look up the definition of religion there, specifically in a legal sense.

    As long as they don't break laws, what exactly is the problem here?

    Really?
    I mean, *really*?
    Because I have. Plenty of them. I've also met the stereotypical asshole Marrocans. Them being assholes has nothing to do with them being muslims, it has everything to do with them living in the situation they do with little social control, and with them being assholes.
    I've also seen plenty of native Dutch kids behave the exact same way.

    Extreme Christians would happily support a Christian Palestine if it were in the same situation.


    So you think that demonizing an entire religion because of the assholes 'following' that religion will make this a more pleasant place?

    I have no time to look it up right now, but I'll get that in a while.

    This has nothing to do with seperation of church and state. Seperation of church and state is about not allowing one specific religion to be held in a higher regard than another religion, it isn't about refusing to recognize religion as entities of themselves.

    I'm also not saying that it's a good thing that religious leaders get to see things politicians don't, but you're using it as an example of how people think they can't condemn Islam, while it is a rule that goes for *all* religions.

    Don't troll. It's boring.
    Except it's a pretty normal sentence and you're the one who is making the link.
     
  12. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Bullets kill people. Ban bullets!
     
  13. Dragula

    Dragula Stormtrooper oTO Orderite

    Nov 6, 2008
    Idiots kill people. Ban idiots.
     
  14. Zeal

    Zeal Still Mildly Glowing

    221
    Apr 20, 2003
    no atheist fight against god, some might fight against the idea of a god but thats it.

    anyway i understood what you were trying to say, we all need "psychological canes".
     
  15. Chancellor Kremlin

    Chancellor Kremlin Mildly Dipped

    527
    Nov 17, 2008
    ''Never argue with a fool. You run the risk of people not being able to tell the two of you apart''
     
  16. Spoonfeed

    Spoonfeed It Wandered In From the Wastes

    116
    Nov 3, 2008
    Perhaps you need to look up the definition of religion there, specifically in a legal sense.

    Legal mumbo jumbo is gibberish for me, so would end up confusing myself.

    As long as they don't break laws, what exactly is the problem here?

    The dogma they follow and act upon; All nonbelievers are WORSE than insects.
    Even a well mannered muslim will think that, if they believe in the "standard" form of the qu'ran
    If there's muslims that don't, they either stopped practicing, or I have not met or heard of them yet.

    Really?
    I mean, *really*?
    Because I have. Plenty of them. I've also met the stereotypical asshole Marrocans. Them being assholes has nothing to do with them being muslims, it has everything to do with them living in the situation they do with little social control, and with them being assholes.
    I've also seen plenty of native Dutch kids behave the exact same way.


    I've met well educated muslims, yes, but they were still 100% pro hamas, and still threatened me when I asked them to explain somewhat about the pedophelia in the muslim faith.

    Even when asking about a non-touchy subject, let's say; 'why do you hate jews unconditionally', They get iffy.

    You might say the same about christians, but they at least CONDEMNED the abuse from priests, rather than just attack the person asking about these atrocities.

    I've seen plenty of idiot dutch kids, but I have yet to meet a native dutch loverboy, whereas I have seen at least 5 muslim(2 turkish 3 moroccan) loverboys in action during my time in Amsterdam.
    coincidence? I sure hope so.

    And I have not read alot of reports(count none) about Native dutch kids roaming towns in groups looking for stuff to steal, people to rape, or just to generally intimidate the population.

    Extreme Christians would happily support a Christian Palestine if it were in the same situation.

    Ah yes, but I'm speaking about the morally bankrupt Islam, not the over protective boys' club that is the Christian church.

    So you think that demonizing an entire religion because of the assholes 'following' that religion will make this a more pleasant place?

    I think giving them an equal treatment, law wise MIGHT improve things here.
    No more beating around the bush, no more exempt status, start naming and shaming, identify problem areas and punish harder and longer.
    No more of this "lets have some tea at the station after you raped a 13 year old girl"

    No more labeling anyone who questions the Islam as a whole as blatantly racist, no more demonizing anyone who dares to question the beautifull multi-cultural dream for the sake of protecting it.

    I have no time to look it up right now, but I'll get that in a while.

    Please do, I just fear that every example you will dig up, will be littered with death threats from practicing muslims.

    Think Salman Rushdie(what's in a name) who had to flee for almost the remainder of his life, after he wrote a book on Islam that might have insulted it.

    This has nothing to do with seperation of church and state. Seperation of church and state is about not allowing one specific religion to be held in a higher regard than another religion, it isn't about refusing to recognize religion as entities of themselves.

    So, unless you are religious, you have NOTHING to say in this country?
    While the religious zealots get to offend whomever they want, after all, they have imaginairy friends.

    I'm also not saying that it's a good thing that religious leaders get to see things politicians don't, but you're using it as an example of how people think they can't condemn Islam, while it is a rule that goes for *all* religions.

    My apologies, I must have mis-understood the concept of Trias politica and seperation of church and state, i thought it was put in place to prevent a country being ruled from a religious standpoint.
    But as you explain it, It's basicly a get out of jail free card IF you have enough conviction to your imaginairy friends.

    Except it's a pretty normal sentence and you're the one who is making the link.
    But, surely you must see that he was giving an ultimatum; Do what I propose or my followers will tear the country apart.

    All in all, thanks for your insights.

    I never expected positive replies, or people agreeing with me, as this is a fansite of a CRPG, a good one at that, and on avarage, the CRPG crowd(and with them, the pen and paper crowd) are independant thinkers, who will question anything, and try to refute wrongs, or ignorance.

    Which you did, congratulations.


    That, and my rant was especially toxic.

    [/i]
     
  17. Ravager69

    Ravager69 Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 21, 2007
    Law > Religion, enough said on the topic.

    Who the fuck cares what religion do you believe in if you are breaking the law everyone else HAS TO adhere to? Either uphold the law and live with others on equal foot or break it and feel the consequence. If you don't like it, move to a country that is ruled by your religion.

    The idea of a democratic country is to give people enough freedom to cultivate their beliefs, while protecting them from each other. If you allow some people to break the law and suffer no consequences only because they *say* some higher power orders them to do it, then you are no longer having a democratic country, simple. You can give them lighter sentences if you consider them insane (or send them to a nut-house), though.

    People have to have right to criticize others beliefs and religions, whether just or unjust - it's equality.
     
  18. Zeal

    Zeal Still Mildly Glowing

    221
    Apr 20, 2003
    The problem isn’t the religion, the Greeks practised paedophilia and didn’t need to use religion as excuse, women were treated like 2nd class citizens in 99% of the world during 99% of human history, there are numerous acts of self-sacrificing for ideology, revenge, rebellion, etc.

    If it wasn’t religion, other excuses would be made to fuel the bloodthirsty for resources and power.

    Religion is like a lubrificant, makes things more smooth.

    For instance in the case of muslin women, its much easier to say “you are my slave because god said so” (still some occasional beatings required), if it is a divine command then its perfect and unquestionable.

    Catholics did the same thing for centuries, not because religion but because its nice to have slaves, religion is just the excuse.

    Because we created our gods, it is obvious that they will be our reflection…

    Although if you live all your life with this kind of indoctrination it becomes true.

    Its all about power and control, it’s the human essence.

    War, war never changes…

    So it doesn’t matter the reasons of actions, just the action itself (and please don’t come with paul ricour analyses of intentions or something similar, you will just be wasting your time). – (because there is no root solution here)

    Punish the law breakers, deep fry em, but that’s it…
     
  19. Spoonfeed

    Spoonfeed It Wandered In From the Wastes

    116
    Nov 3, 2008
    So, yes, people are evil. :)

    About part in bold; dutch judges and police have a VERY hard time establishing dominance towards the problem-groups, which results in lessened respect for the state, which results in more atrocities.

    For instance; two guys were caught holding a jerrycan filled with
    gasoline not far from a car that was torched to the ground.
    They got arrested, admitted the crime, and were out on their feet the next morning.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3317931/the-intimidation-of-the-house-of-lords.thtml

    The above link demonstrates what even the most "moderate" muslims are capable of when they are threatened by something that does not compute with their 12th century way of thinking.
    The guy is a part of the house of lords for fucks' sake.
     
  20. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Here's a hint: 'I believe in something' is not the same as being a religion.

    I've met them. Or at least, I've met plenty of muslims who might think that but don't act upon it. Which is good enough for me, they can privately belief what they want. We don't have thought-police, happily.
    Islam is much more touchy than the rest of society and this is a problem, yes, but not much of a problem. Thankfully, being touchy is, again, nothing punishable.

    I have.
    Which means as much as you saying you haven't.
    A lot of those groups, strangely, also have Dutch kids amongst them.

    It has nothing to do with them following Islam.
    I love this rant.
    It's so useless, stupid and above all, false. People have been naming, shaming and talking about people themselves for years now.
    This is not a problem, yet it's the standard whine of everyone who wants to complain about Islam.
    Have you even watched a single bit of news over the past 5 years? Everything even slightly to do with muslims, Maroccans, Turks, Antillians or whatever gets named and talked about to death.
    Really, there's now city watches aimed specifically at confronting troublesome Maroccan youths. What the hell are you talking about when you say these things?
    So first you go "I've seen no apologies from muslims" and then when I say I'll get some you go 'Yeah sure but there'll be other muslims complaining!'

    That's a neat little strawman, there.
    No. The point is that religions get some additional freedom under the guise of freedom of religion.

    That's not even close to the same thing as going 'zomg I'm not religious I have no rights'.

    But again, not saying that this is a good thing, but it's also not something that has anything to do with the topic you're whinging about.

    Stop trolling.

    Or he's saying 'My followers are assholes, I can't stop them'.