Left wing Fascism And Freedom of speech.(oohh controversial)

[Crni Vuk]

Why are you so hung up on "Muslims"

Your one way war against the "Islam" is pretty racistic and offensive just to say that as you for what ever reason ignore the fact that other relgions are just as capable like the Islam to fanatic and terroristic acts. Maybe you forgot the 4000 Shimpū Tokkōtai or better known as Japanese Kamikaze that died during the second World War (and that are just the aircrafts, there have been a lot more suicide attacks by ground units on tanks and infantry). This kind of behaviour is always caused by "usual" people, the Kamikaze Pilots have been many times academics, studens, people reading Kant, Marx, Engels, and many times even questioning the War in General and almost forced in to the duty as one can read by countless diaries and hear from surviving Pilots. Most of the Kamikaze Pilots just like those "martyrs" in the Islam are "usual" people. Not agressive Psychopaths.

NBC’s Martin Fletcher provides a rare glimpse inside the mind of one of the most potent and feared weapons in the Mideast: the suicide bomber. Samir Toubasi, 19, now held in an Israeli prison, was arrested earlier this month when he was stopped in a car en route to a popular disco in Haifa, Israel. Police found Toubasi with a 25-pound bomb.

Sadly those Interview is not available anymore But there are Informations about Samir Toubasi and others.

(...)Experts say there are two types of motivation for the bomber. The first involves anger and a sense of hopelessness. Typical is Samir Toubasi, a 19-year-old Palestinian, caught while driving to a disco with a 22lb bomb. He was ready to kill himself and as many Israelis as possible. "I lost my job, my future, my hope," said Toubasi. "Then Israeli soldiers killed my friend. I wanted to die."
Ref.

Dr. Eyad Sarraj, a Muslim, heads up Gaza's only psychiatric clinic. The families of suicide bombers often come to him for help after the deed is done. That's how he has built up his profile. But are the people who want to become suicide bombers especially violent?

“No. On the contrary. If you look at their personal histories, they usually were very timid people, introvert, their problem was always communication in public or communicating their feelings, so they were not violent at all,” says Sarraj.
Ref.

Explanations by Israely Psychologist Ariel Merari

Women as Victims and Victimizers

Woman are both victims and perpetrators of terrorist violence

(...)Psychologist Ariel Merari states: "Culture in general and religion in particular seem to be relatively unimportant in the phenomenon of terrorist suicide. Terrorist suicide, like any other suicide, is basically an individual rather than a group phenomenon: People who wish to die for personal reasons do it. The terrorist framework simply offers the excuse (rather than the real drive) for doing it and the legitimation for carrying it out in a violent way."
Ref.

There is at the moment a huge and big Band-wagon of "All in the Islam are ineherently crazy and agressive". And a lot of people just seem to jump on this and exactly repeat a lot of the things that the media is presenting them on a tablet without even trying to eventualy get on the root of the things. It is always the same thing. It repeates it self. Today Islam. A few years back either the communistic Russians, South Vietnamese or Koreans.

The dogma they follow and act upon; All nonbelievers are WORSE than insects.
Even a well mannered muslim will think that, if they believe in the "standard" form of the qu'ran
If there's muslims that don't, they either stopped practicing, or I have not met or heard of them yet.

Just a qustion here. In which way is that different to Christians that believe in the "standart" form of the Bible? Taking it literaly. Did you ever heard from Orthodox Jews? Radical and fundamentalistic ideas can be present in many forms, its not a invention by the Islam.

What you do is apply a "double standart" cause it seems to fitt your idea of the raidcal Islam. Since when has it ever worked to lump all communities togehter? Did you ever heard about that there is more to the Islam then just "killing in the Name of Alah". The martyr is already known for christians and jews a long time before the Islam ever existed. Actualy quite a few "holy" people are described as Martyrs. It has a reason why a lot of medival art are called "Martyrdom of the Holy Sebastian/Ursual etc".

Before the 1970s "suicide" was not usual for a Muslim in no way as it is according to their Quaran a Sin just like it is for Christians. The martyrdom was only reserved to those that died with the hands of the enemy (which counts somewhat as well for christians and loosely for jews) In the Afghan war during the 80s suicide was not reported by Soviet soldiers as attack by the Mujahedin and came only later with the Taliban (which actualy are a relatively new and rather small sect even among the Islam). It only started to become popular cause some Imam explained it that even the suicide is part of martyr when you do it in a holy war. Its a very spongy definition of the situation and myrtyrdom. And quite a lot of Muslim communities disagree with this. Quite some Islamic communities are very moderate and life peacefully together with either Christians or Jews. But obvously the "standart" Muslim has to be a agressive religioous fanatic while the "standart" christian is a moderate intelligent sane person. Obvously. Dont apply your "moral" on people only cause they did not grown up with fluently warm water.

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You might say the same about christians, but they at least CONDEMNED the abuse from priests, rather than just attack the person asking about these atrocities.

So that is the rason why a priest condemened for child abuse just gets a different job in a other community where he just commits the same crime again without even a punishment and the knowledge of the Bishop? Double Moral ... yet again.

There are as well "educated" christians around as "educated" muslims that will tell you for example that you have to respect Homesexuals, but that you have as well to condemn them for their "sinnfull life". Quite a few here have as well mentioned the Mormons as rather "fanatic" christian community. And that is only one. A few definitions also count the Jehovah's Witnesses as christian as well.

And I have not read alot of reports(count none) about Native dutch kids roaming towns in groups looking for stuff to steal, people to rape, or just to generally intimidate the population.

If the situation around it is similar like in Germany then you dont hear about it cause its not popular enough and cause it doesnt "sell". Newscast are a buisness, were most informations are presented by reporters and photographer that work as freelancers. A country even the dutch one are big locations with thousands of people and situations. Not every incident gets reported, not every news posted or written down simply cause either A ) its not "exciting" enough or B ) no one was there to report it. Child abuse for example will ALWAYS score a critical hit. People are shocked. But a drug addicted mug a shop or a child dieing somewhere on drug use ... not so much. In Berlin certainly evey year a lot of children under the age of 12 die on heroin. But do you hear about it here in the news? No. Why? It are not news that cause your gazette to sell something. But news about a father who raped his child on the other hand. Or Madon again walking drunk out of a party. Now that are news! I am sure even in your Dutch nation somewhere children die on drug use. Why dont you start to make topics about that and try to REALY force your gouvernement (like everyone should do) to start something against it.

What is interesting to see right now with this "financial crisis" that suddenly literaly over night the gouvernement can throw out MILLIONS! of dollars/Euros for poor companies that caused this crisis in the first place but when it comes to improve schools, support programms for drug addicted or against pauperism with children/parents ... then all you hear is that there is no money.

Law > Religion, enough said on the topic.

Who the fuck cares what religion do you believe in if you are breaking the law everyone else HAS TO adhere to? Either uphold the law and live with others on equal foot or break it and feel the consequence. If you don't like it, move to a country that is ruled by your religion.

The issue is just that quite a lot right now apply a double standart cause it just "fitts" at the moment. Today the worst people on the world are "fanatic" muslims. 30 years back in the past it were "communistic" Russians. Its like the one concept of the enemy has been replaces with another one. You know its fun that 20 years back training in the German army involved a russian speaking person as "enemy" today its a person with turban.

Sterotypes and the media. It sells. And it works. A few people holer something to the world and get a voice in one or another way and suddenly everything is bad and no one even tries to understand the roots. But just as how communism has proven later not to be the big demon in the 90s when it fell appart things are always more complicated then just with those simple "those are evil - we are good" thinking. Has anyone actualy even tried in the 50s or 60s to take his time and study russian history? To see eventualy why communism had a chance to grow in russia? Obviously not. Such things only started to become popular after the Sovietunion dissapeared and many of the academic former Soviets could immigrate without issues to the west and share their ideas. But for more then 40 years for a big part of the western world this nation was not more then a "big red siberian Bear" that like a real bear will attack anything in its range. And quite a lot of military personal thought that way for a long time. Thx god most of the time time it was not their responsibility to decide a war. But already the Cuba crisis shows to what kind of danger such stereotypical thinking can lead.

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http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3317931/the-intimidation-of-the-house-of-lords.thtml

The above link demonstrates what even the most "moderate" muslims are capable of when they are threatened by something that does not compute with their 12th century way of thinking.
The guy is a part of the house of lords for fucks' sake.

So what? A Bishop here in Germany denied "officialy" the existance of the Holocaust and cause a lot of issues with the Jewish community here almost to a point where the relation took some heavy damage from his claim. And you think the Pope excommunicate him? Sadly not.

 

[Ravager69]

[To Crni Vruk] Stereotypical thinking? I assume you're talking on my opinion on the matter.

What I mean is that I think the country (or more precisly the government) which is upholding the law, should not give a damn about religion, beliefs and from which country you are from when it comes to punishing the citizens for crimes. You are entitled to live in our country, be equal to everyone and believe whatever religion you wish, but break the law and you WILL be punished like everyone else, no exceptions. You can't (or shouldn't at least) punish two people diffrently for the same crime, it is simply unjust. People have no right to bitch about it, now have they?

 

[Zeal]

The issue is just that quite a lot right now apply a double standart cause it just "fitts" at the moment. Today the worst people on the world are "fanatic" muslims. 30 years back in the past it were "communistic" Russians. Its like the one concept of the enemy has been replaces with another one. You know its fun that 20 years back training in the German army involved a russian speaking person as "enemy" today its a person with turban.

Sterotypes and the media. It sells. And it works. A few people holer something to the world and get a voice in one or another way and suddenly everything is bad and no one even tries to understand the roots. But just as how communism has proven later not to be the big demon in the 90s when it fell appart things are always more complicated then just with those simple "those are evil - we are good" thinking. Has anyone actualy even tried in the 50s or 60s to take his time and study russian history? To see eventualy why communism had a chance to grow in russia? Obviously not. Such things only started to become popular after the Sovietunion dissapeared and many of the academic former Soviets could immigrate without issues to the west and share their ideas. But for more then 40 years for a big part of the western world this nation was not more then a "big red siberian Bear" that like a real bear will attack anything in its range. And quite a lot of military personal thought that way for a long time. Thx god most of the time time it was not their responsibility to decide a war. But already the Cuba crisis shows to what kind of danger such stereotypical thinking can lead.

Humm.. actually, at least to me who dont think that everything good in life is "superstructure", the big red bear was a big real threat.

Thank "god" deterrance gave us enough time for the USRR to dismantle itself.

Today is the islamics fundamentalists. One thing is saying all muslins are a threat, another is to recognize that a significant percentage is a big threat to our way of living, which i like and thus will fight for.

PC is a great weapon idd, Sun tzu would be proud...

"It is quite gratifying to feel guilty if you haven't done anything wrong: how noble!" (Hannah Arendt)

Edit: not because they are muslins but because of what they want and are fighting for. Plus as stated before the militant real reasons are always resources and power. i couldn´t care less if they say that is because god commands them, that im too tall, or that they dont like my hairstyle...

 

[Spoonfeed]

Here's a hint: 'I believe in something' is not the same as being a religion.

Ah, yes, thanks for clarifying.

I've met them. Or at least, I've met plenty of muslims who might think that but don't act upon it. Which is good enough for me, they can privately belief what they want. We don't have thought-police, happily.

Thinking that indicates that they'd rather be extremist than a westerner, which in my opinion, is a problem;
If you think the country is run by dogs and pigs, why are you there?
Which can turn very ugly, if the tensions rise much higher in the middle-east, and the west has to start taking sides.

Islam is much more touchy than the rest of society and this is a problem, yes, but not much of a problem. Thankfully, being touchy is, again, nothing punishable.

If this touchyness results in abuse of the local populace, or threatening them, or giving absurd demands such as seperate working places for mans/womans, it IS a problem.

I have.
Which means as much as you saying you haven't.

Point taken, No point in going into yes/no/yes/no/my waddle/your waddle discussions.

A lot of those groups, strangely, also have Dutch kids amongst them.
It has nothing to do with them following Islam.

I agree that it has LITTLE to do with Islam, because cockwads will always be cockwads, but I don't think it has NOTHING to do, since Islam teaches alot of skewed moral values, made for the middle-ages.

I love this rant.
It's so useless, stupid and above all, false. People have been naming, shaming and talking about people themselves for years now.
This is not a problem, yet it's the standard whine of everyone who wants to complain about Islam.
Have you even watched a single bit of news over the past 5 years? Everything even slightly to do with muslims, Maroccans, Turks, Antillians or whatever gets named and talked about to death.
Really, there's now city watches aimed specifically at confronting troublesome Maroccan youths. What the hell are you talking about when you say these things?

I can agree that it has improved somewhat, especially over the last few months/year, but before that it was still VERY much covered up to cover for the attrocities these people commit.

And even now, a video of violent HAMAS demonstrators chasing the police was held back for a few weeks to "prevent a negative image for muslims"

And still muslim preachers are getting away with saying things such as: "All nonbelievers are dogs" "Hitler was imposed on the jews for their wicked ways" Without proscecution.

So first you go "I've seen no apologies from muslims" and then when I say I'll get some you go 'Yeah sure but there'll be other muslims complaining!'

I have not found a practicing muslim that speaks out against the attrocities and crimes commited by their fellow muslims.
I have found people that were previously muslim, that were speaking out against it's practices, but these people are now living in hiding, because they got threatened so much they feared for their lives.

Such as Salman Rushdie, Ayaan, Jami, these people now live in hiding, because they insulted the allmighty, unrefutable islam.

That's a neat little strawman, there.
No. The point is that religions get some additional freedom under the guise of freedom of religion.

That's not even close to the same thing as going 'zomg I'm not religious I have no rights'.

But again, not saying that this is a good thing, but it's also not something that has anything to do with the topic you're whinging about.

Well, I guess i disagree with the added rights and protection the constitution grants for religious people then.

My apologies, I must have mis-understood the concept of Trias politica and seperation of church and state, i thought it was put in place to prevent a country being ruled from a religious standpoint.
But as you explain it, It's basicly a get out of jail free card IF you have enough conviction to your imaginairy friends.

I was simply trying to recap what you where saying, apologies if it came off as troll-y.

Or he's saying 'My followers are assholes, I can't stop them'.

Then he should say that he disagrees with the attrocities commited by these "followers" rather than starting YET ANOTHER integration project which costs milions and has 0 results.


Thank you for the very valid points, I am looking forward to your reply.
Also, I would like to urge you to look into the Doctors without borders video, and do neccesairy research, as I was always a big fan of them, and I've known a few doctors without borders myself, but this shocked and amazed me to no extent.

I started off with Sander, as he is directly "attacking"(no ofense taken btw) me, will update this post with other replies.

[To Crni Vruk] Stereotypical thinking? I assume you're talking on my opinion on the matter.
What I mean is that I think the country (or more precisly the government) which is upholding the law, should not give a damn about religion, beliefs and from which country you are from when it comes to punishing the citizens for crimes. You are entitled to live in our country, be equal to everyone and believe whatever religion you wish, but break the law and you WILL be punished like everyone else, no exceptions. You can't (or shouldn't at least) punish two people diffrently for the same crime, it is simply unjust. People have no right to bitch about it, now have they?

I agree with this, the law should be ignorant of background, color, or hairstyle, it should just judge people on their actions, some variables should apply, off course, but religion should NOT be one of them.

 

[DJS4000]

So what? A Bishop here in Germany denied "officialy" the existance of the Holocaust and cause a lot of issues with the Jewish community here almost to a point where the relation took some heavy damage from his claim. And you think the Pope excommunicate him? Sadly not.

what the? how the hell is this even comparable? a bishop who voiced his admittedly rather twisted opinion versus a member of the political system threatening another for the planned screening of a movie, effectively denying him his freedom of speech? no. just no.

 

[Zeal]

Islam is much more touchy than the rest of society and this is a problem, yes, but not much of a problem. Thankfully, being touchy is, again, nothing punishable.

If this touchyness results in abuse of the local populace, or threatening them, or giving absurd demands such as seperate working places for mans/womans, it IS a problem.

The problem is saying religion/ideology doesn’t matter and at the same time being fundamental.

For instance, in my country its already happening too, a muslin that beats his wife has a much lessened sentence or no sentence at all due to the beliefs/culture he has.

Pardon me if im wrong, but the problem is not the muslin who only wants to have all the luxury of a 2nd or 1st world, but at the same time be subject to the laws of his homeland (which are great if you are a man), the problem is the westerns that support that kind of discrimination.

If any newcomer would be treated by the same laws of the natives, there would be no problem at all, and i believe that is the cause of your anger spoonfeed.

Bad and good people come in all sizes and shapes.

In the netherlands there are many more dutch rapists, but when caught there is no reduced sentence by cause of believing they were doing the supposed thing.

Ofc that bands of boys full of hormones and with nothing to do, that spent their youth without being able to even LOOK at girls (because most are covered from top to bottom since they reach the age of 9, well its still better if you are a women and a man – doesn’t really matter if he even knows you – thinks that caught you looking in the wrong way to a boy), when arrived at a pussy country with pussy laws compared to the old world, and see many girls doing the opposite in the streets (acting seducing, sex sells ^^, you gotta love the pill), ofc they will have that kind of behaviour, especially if they consider themselves untouchable by using “our” sense of guilt (about what it is still a mistery to me).

It is our duty not to let it happen or punish the offenders, no matter race, creed, size, etc., and not making special laws for one group.

I believe that is what pisses off the muslims “racists” (is muslin a race?).

Burning flags in the other end of the world, shouting loud, doing whatever they want with their society, being touchy in general also doesn’t affect me… nor you spoon am I right?

Cultural relativism hit a new level of stupidity...

 

[Crni Vuk]

What I mean is that I think the country (or more precisly the government) which is upholding the law, should not give a damn about religion, beliefs and from which country you are from when it comes to punishing the citizens for crimes. You are entitled to live in our country, be equal to everyone and believe whatever religion you wish, but break the law and you WILL be punished like everyone else, no exceptions. You can't (or shouldn't at least) punish two people diffrently for the same crime, it is simply unjust. People have no right to bitch about it, now have they?

I know what you mean. And I dont like it neither what people do and say in some mosque. But its a complicated topic and to gauge everthing (like politic and hate spech from a religion) with the same outlook can not work that way. The freedom you have in the religion is a fundamental part of democracy and the rights of it in generall. The truth is that a christian priest could do a hate spech in his church as well (And I am sure there are some that do it)

But maybe this sounds familiar? "I dont like what you say, but I sure fight for your right to say it"

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Humm.. actually, at least to me who dont think that everything good in life is "superstructure", the big red bear was a big real threat.

Thank "god" deterrance gave us enough time for the USRR to dismantle itself.

...

No one is saying communism or the Sovietunion was not a threat. But to say they have been the "only" threat in this cold war game would be a twist of the real situation Kennedy wanted to show that he can make "though" decisions with the Cuba chrisis, Reagan called the Sovietunion the "evil" and started his useless Star Wars programm which can be seen as a undermine of the demobilisation. Not to forget the McCarthysm from the 50s. The US just did their part to it just like the Soviets. Who was "worse" in the end is trivial. Remember the 2 kidz that punch each other and everyone would say when the mother come that the other one is worse then himself. Just that this kidz had some nuclear weapons. Who cares in the end if those are used whos the worse person when everyone is loosing.

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PC is a great weapon idd, Sun tzu would be proud...

"It is quite gratifying to feel guilty if you haven't done anything wrong: how noble!" (Hannah Arendt)

Edit: not because they are muslins but because of what they want and are fighting for. Plus as stated before the militant real reasons are always resources and power. i couldn´t care less if they say that is because god commands them, that im too tall, or that they dont like my hairstyle...

The question is just "what kind of threat" are they really? Thats still something no one can really give a clear answer. No one has any doubt that those people ARE dangerous. Just like any Criminal with a gun can be dangerous. But is it really needed to concentrate sloley on those groups? On who knows what small percentage. I dont know how big they are. But those organisations are not one united force. Most of them are rather small fanatic organisations. But how much can one thrust informations from "gouvernements" that do terroristic acts by them self? That even gave them the weapons and training? I guess quite a few forget about Iran-Contra affair. What about illegal weapon buisness in Congo with the Chinese, France, Brittain and US involved? Thousands of people are killing each other for the resources to buy weapons from all this Nations so they can get control of the resouces to buy more weapons. Considering the politics and all the Nations that have a interest down there experts guess that it might take more then 20 years before all of them agree to stop this illegal AND legal buisness with weapons, and peoples life. But you really dont hear anyone in the media make a big thing out of it.

what the? how the hell is this even comparable? a bishop who voiced his admittedly rather twisted opinion versus a member of the political system threatening another for the planned screening of a movie, effectively denying him his freedom of speech? no. just no.

It is comparable cause the Pope did nothing here to interverne. Same to priests that are knowingly in the church for child abuse. Its meant as a example to show that not everything is "black vs white" and things are many times "grey". That one should not apply everywhere standarts with HIS measurement and the morals he has grown up with. I am not a friend of "child marriage" either or the female genital cutting in Africa that leaves most females mutilated heavily. But I also understand that some cultures have traditions that are almost 2000 years old were people grown up with just as we did with our believing. You cant knock over such things from one day to the other. Particularly not with force. I wish it could be done so fast and everything corrected that easily.

We have OUR culture and OUR way of life and thinking which works for US. But that doesnt mean that we should be always allowed to gauge everything and decide what is right and what is wrong. Morale and Ethics are fundamental. Democracy important. But you cant force it on people. Thats not working. Education is the key. But this takes time. Sometimes centuries.

To point to some individual and make them indicative for a whole religion is trivial. Its just increasing intolerance and missunderstanding that lead to hate and fear. It lead to situatons where the TV and Newspaper would report about Muslims and Terrorism and some people start shooting arab like looking people randomly from their cars working in a gas station. Is that the kind of community one wants?

There is no doubt about that many people are stubborn in their views. That some maybe even support palestinian efforts (while others eventualy not!), but so do it some who are christians, and have a education from the west. Some support the Irisch Republic Army, and are christians. Others the Euskadi Ta Askatasuna (ETA) in Spain, officaily and politicaly even. Are this people all terrorists? Have they all a "urge" for violance, or do they just say their oppinon. What they think and believe.

When you have a opportunity to grow up in 2 extremly different culturs like former Yugoslavia and the pretty liberal Germany you can learn eventualy that things are not a "black and white" situation. Crotatian, Bosnian and Serbian military and rebells did a lot of awfull things with Orthodox and Catholic Christians and Muslims inside this troubles. Whos the bad one? Whos the terrorist? If you hear Serbian Media it are the others. If you read Croatian Newspaper it are Bosnian-Serbian rebells. I have grown up with a lot of those people for years and even I cant today say to understand everything. And now today there is even the Kosovo with its whole own issues and foreign terrorists with training in the midle east. Black and White thinking will only make things even worse. Just like it did in the past.

I believe that is what pisses off the muslims “racists” (is muslin a race?)

Is jewish a race? No its obviously not.

 

[Zeal]

I completely agree with you when you say that are bigger threats (much bigger) in the world. But in this post we were talking about the threat muslins produce, not, for instance, what is going on in Sri Lanka.

The threat muslins produce, at least to me and I think to spoon also (sorry spoon but your line of argumentation made no sense, but I feel empathized with you because I think – or hope – you just didn’t express yourself right), is the one I already stated in the last post.

I don’t want Nigerians or whatever also coming into my country and still practising clitoris excision to little girls and be set free due to cultural divergence…

That’s what people is referring when they say fundamentalists are trying to destroy our way of living, and with the emigration rate increasing exponentially, every day it passes the problem becomes larger, especially in countries with highest emigration rate like France.

To aggravate the problem (or the real problem) they are supported by people that uses two scales and are our countrymen, its like committing hara kiri… - this is the part spoon was pointing when said “left wing fascism”, I think.

Yeah, muslin is no race, so why ppl called spoon a racist??

Regarding the evilness of US:

I never said that they were saints plus that’s peanuts compared to what URSS would have done to Europe if not the US (and part of a strategy – fighting communism that was a real threat during that time-, being responsible and good is not always being nice)… Saying that who is worse in the end is trivial, comparing that more Russians died to innovative regime ideas than in the WWII is… funny?

Shit, I would prefer a million times to be conquered by the US, although they had no intentions of doing so…

 

[Ravager69]

Crni, listen. If you move to other country with a diffrent set of rules you have to...adhere to them. Democracy guarantees you that your customs will be respected as long as they won't break the law. You can't come into someone's house out of your free will, take advantage of the host's hospitality and then tell him how to live in his house because you think your lifestyle is better. Why? Because it is rude.

To put it into a perspective - what would you do if some asshole on the forum would post that you and your family are dogs and deserve the most horrible of deaths?

Probably argue with him or ignore him. Anyway, everything is fine, because none steps out of the boundaries. Arguing and expressing opinion is fine.

Now what if that same person would come to your house and threaten you with a knife, only because his beliefs\religion\whatever demands it from him or he simply uses them as a cover for his fucked up psycho-mind? Do nothing, it's fine because these are his beliefs and you respect them?

Yeah right.

And what if you'd go to the police and they tell you that they can't do jack 'cause it'd be politicaly incorrect to do it, because the country respects all religions? "Aw, shoot, guess I'll go home and have a tea and try to discuss peacefully next time with the man?"

You see, I don't give a slightest shit that some moron who's affraid his dick is too small tries to make up for it by being agressive towards all who don't fit his liking or that he gives speeches about my kind or me specifically. If he wants to be a deluded asshole, I'm fine with it, because I realise that some of my beliefs are also wrong in the eyes of others. Probably some of those will be brought up after this post.

What I am talking about is that when people do something they shouldn't and then try to defend themselves using religion. Because the country does not force you to be a part of a cult, it is not obliged to take it into account. Thus all muslims (and members of all other religions) HAVE TO BE judged equally to others. NO EXCEPTIONS. I am not talking about punishing hate speechers or anything like this, but about real-time crimes - theft, murder, assault etc. Government has to defend it's citizens' way of life and life first and foremost. Imigrants enforcing changes aren't justified at any way, they can stay in their country if they don't like how people live in their new country.

Tolerance to a degree.

BTW I advise not to try to make a exeophob out of me. I simply say that countries need to make a strong stand on their culture and beliefs, though should also respect the customs of people from other countries.

 

[fedaykin]

You complain about extremists, Spoonfeed, yet you sure do talk like a retarded foaming-at-the-mouth extremist yourself.

 

[Sander]

Thinking that indicates that they'd rather be extremist than a westerner, which in my opinion, is a problem;
If you think the country is run by dogs and pigs, why are you there?
Which can turn very ugly, if the tensions rise much higher in the middle-east, and the west has to start taking sides.

Again: we do not punish people for their private belies, for very good reasons.

If this touchyness results in abuse of the local populace, or threatening them, or giving absurd demands such as seperate working places for mans/womans, it IS a problem.

No, the abuse, threats and absurd demands are a problem. The actual motivation isn't, and you cannot punish people for simply thinking something.

I can agree that it has improved somewhat, especially over the last few months/year, but before that it was still VERY much covered up to cover for the attrocities these people commit.

And even now, a video of violent HAMAS demonstrators chasing the police was held back for a few weeks to "prevent a negative image for muslims"

Which indeed, should not happen.

And still muslim preachers are getting away with saying things such as: "All nonbelievers are dogs" "Hitler was imposed on the jews for their wicked ways" Without proscecution.

And again, this has nothing to do with them being muslim, but with the idea of freedom of religion, which has always been a staunchly protected right in the Netherlands.

I have not found a practicing muslim that speaks out against the attrocities and crimes commited by their fellow muslims.
I have found people that were previously muslim, that were speaking out against it's practices, but these people are now living in hiding, because they got threatened so much they feared for their lives.

So, just off the top of my head, Ahmed Aboutaleb does not exist in your frame of reference?

Such as Salman Rushdie, Ayaan, Jami, these people now live in hiding, because they insulted the allmighty, unrefutable islam.

Yet again: the fact that the extremists are retarded assholes doesn't make every muslim the same.

After all, I know plenty of Christians who work on sundays, enjoy alcohol and do not think women should not do anything but look after the household.

Well, I guess i disagree with the added rights and protection the constitution grants for religious people then.

No, not religious people, religions.

In the netherlands there are many more dutch rapists, but when caught there is no reduced sentence by cause of believing they were doing the supposed thing.

There are also no reduced sentences for muslim rapists, what the fuck? People are equal in the eyes of the law.

Ravager, why are you pretending that people are arguing that religion and belies are excuses to commit crimes? No one is saying that, at all.

Fedaykin, shut up and don't troll.

 

[Ravager69]

I meant that muslims may officialy hate speech and feel little consequences and some non-muslim guy get's sued for it only because he's not in a minority.

 

[Sander]

I meant that muslims may officialy hate speech and feel little consequences and some non-muslim guy get's sued for it only because he's not in a minority.

Right, I just spend every post explaining that that is not what happened, and you seem to still read that out of it?

What the fuck.

YET AGAIN: It has nothing to do with people being muslims or not, the point is simply that *all religions* (not people just following religions) have some additional freedoms when it comes to freedom of speech.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I completely agree with you when you say that are bigger threats (much bigger) in the world. But in this post we were talking about the threat muslins produce, not, for instance, what is going on in Sri Lanka....

Crni, listen. If you move to other country with a diffrent set of rules you have to...adhere to them. Democracy guarantees you that your customs will be respected as long as they won't break the law. You can't come into someone's house out of your free will, take advantage of the host's hospitality and then tell him how to live in his house because you think your lifestyle is better. Why? Because it is rude.

Dont get me wrong. I dont say one should deal with everyone using velvet gloves. But on the other side you can not force people to do something. This is about the "Islam" in General. Not the subcultures inside a nation that cause issues and usualy have nothing to do with the religion ineherently or terrorism but more social circumstances.

The terrostic communities with Islamic background are ONE issue. Not THE issue of this century. And now quite some seem to mix radical hate spech with everying inside one big pot [considering the intention behind this useless topic] as like there never have been such issues in general around religion before like hate spech from christian communities (and still today against gays or others) or other religions (even Hindus). To see this issue now in the Islam solely and do something against "them" in particular would be contradicting with the idea of free religions in general exactly because we have to treat all religions in the same way, not the Islam in particular. We can not now suddenly gag Islamic preaches but on the other side give (for example) Christian communities all the freedom that allow them to do hate spech against gays, or other in their eyes "dishonorable" individuals. As you guys already say. Equal rights for everyone. Equal rights for all religions as well then. To suddenly gag them [all], would be absolutely un-democratic. Or do we really want to have a plainclothes policeman sitting in evey church around the US/europe, to spy on every word the guy infront of the audience is saying? Yes ... we had such systems already before.

Again. I had the opportunity to get a view on 2 extremly different cultures when it comes to politic and traditions. Germans and (former) Yugoslavian cultures are not very comparable in a lot of things. Particularly when it comes to politics. And I never understood those people that suddenly try to use "German" standarts and particularly "western logic" now on "Balkan" issues, for example [its results can still be seen in Kosovo ...] . That would be like using directly a German School System in the United States cause it makes Kidz here in Germany smarter. Its probably not working to just copy paste one system in to another culture. What one has to do is to get on the roots of the issues. With the Islam its just that a lot of "panicmongering" is around it that make it for many hard to even try to understand the roots of the issue seperatoin each situation and explain it to a biger audience that just want it to "dissapear" as fast as possible if needed with force. And thats probably the bigest issue around it. It all adds to the general "politic of fear" that is caused in the US by the media which is totally unkown for europeans for example. They start to slowly do the same here as well, but no one actualy really cares here really about "terrorism" and we definetly do not want to change parts of our laws expecialy cause of "islamic terrorists" as how it has happend already in the US.

That fundamental Islamic terrorism is not something one should take frivolously of course is obvious. But it should be clear that it does not legitimate military acts from the western world at all costs that could be as well seen like terrorism or the "propaganda" in our popular media.

Did anyone at least even tried to find a dialogue with such extremist organisations? To an really consider what could be done to politicaly dissarm them? Terrorism is working only cause of one thing. Poverty. People dont get born as radical suicide bombers. They get educated and created as such. What one can see today is that agressions get always answered with agressions. Even politicaly. Now this kind of solution has not worked for the last 50 years in Gaza. It did not worked against the Communism. Why should it now work suddenly on a more global scale? What is really needed is a policy of détente. Particularly cause terrorism is not one united enemy and front where you can storm the beaches of Normandy like against the Nazis and feel right about it. One will most probably not change "their" way of thinking now suddenly. But the generation that is coming after them. Take away the their reason to fight, the politcal ammunition and it will be a lot harder for them to get followers. No one will kill him self or others easily when he has a safe life.

The Military is a tool of the last century. Maybe we should give it one time a brake and consider to use it somewhat less. Particularly when its about to solve politcal issues. I mean its not like military solutions and scaremongering have solved anything the last 1000 years really in a satisfying way ...

I agree that it has LITTLE to do with Islam, because cockwads will always be cockwads, but I don't think it has NOTHING to do, since Islam teaches alot of skewed moral values, made for the middle-ages.

And the Bible not ?

Stop using your double standarts. It makes you sound hyprocitical.

...
YET AGAIN: It has nothing to do with people being muslims or not, the point is simply that *all religions* (not people just following religions) have some additional freedoms when it comes to freedom of speech.

Exactly. Very well said. I guess that alone should clear a lot of things. It just seems that a lot are overly focused on "Islam" in this relation when you actualy can hear "hate spech" in a lot of religions. Not just with the Islam. You just dont hear so much about it cause its not common to report it. Thats all.

 

[Ravager69]

YET AGAIN: It has nothing to do with people being muslims or not, the point is simply that *all religions* (not people just following religions) have some additional freedoms when it comes to freedom of speech.

Which sucks and I was talking about this on the example of muslims. Anyway, I think I'll pass on this topic since I'm not doing so well in proving my point

 

[Spoonfeed]

And the Bible not ?

Stop using your double standards. It makes you sound hyprocitical.

In holland, christian-extremism is hardly any problem, other than the suffocating veil of christianity falling on our every freedom.(which is only partially the center of this discussion)

I'd hardly call it a double standard if i blame Islam for having EVEN MORE skewed moral values.

Only real gripe I have with the bible is the "no abortions" and "no protected/sex before marriage" thing, I'm not so hung up on doing drugs and killing people.

You complain about extremists, Spoonfeed, yet you sure do talk like a retarded foaming-at-the-mouth extremist yourself.

Why thank you, I have rabies

Again: we do not punish people for their private belies, for very good reasons.

But what if they impose their beliefs on others through preaching?
Not implying, wondering.
Because I believe that falls under hate-speeching, which should be illegal if I recall.

No, the abuse, threats and absurd demands are a problem. The actual motivation isn't, and you cannot punish people for simply thinking something.

Then they should be called on their absurd demands(The ones doing threats and abuse aren't really open to suggestion), and put back in their place; as equal citizens of the dutch state;
At the moment they seem to think they can get away with demanding anything

Which indeed, should not happen.

Good to see, That you can gree with me once i start making less ranty, and more sensible arguments.

And again, this has nothing to do with them being muslim, but with the idea of freedom of religion, which has always been a staunchly protected right in the Netherlands.

Where does the protection of religious people end, and the discrimination of nonbelievers start?

So, just off the top of my head, Ahmed Aboutaleb does not exist in your frame of reference?

He does, but he is hardly commiting to calling the muslim community on their over-demanding BS, and I still see him prefering his "brothers" through horribly-expensive, 100% ineffective projects for immigrants.

Yet again: the fact that the extremists are retarded assholes doesn't make every muslim the same.
After all, I know plenty of Christians who work on sundays, enjoy alcohol and do not think women should not do anything but look after the household.

I know not all muslims are extremists or act as such, but i do know that i hardly(read; not ever) see the avarage muslim Joe condemning these actions and behaviour.

There are also no reduced sentences for muslim rapists, what the fuck? People are equal in the eyes of the law.

Unfortunately, the law isn't always equal in the eyes of people enforcing it; judges, policemen.

And is the whole concept of equality(after freedom one of the major selling points of holland) not made moot by the "extra special freedom with extra sauce" the religions get?

 

[Crni Vuk]

And the Bible not ?

Stop using your double standards. It makes you sound hyprocitical.

...
Only real gripe I have with the bible is the "no abortions" and "no protected/sex before marriage" thing, I'm not so hung up on doing drugs and killing people.

That is the only gripe you have with the "Bible" ? Youre dead serious arnt you ?

What is about married life. Did you ever heard that the Bible specificy for a lot of rather "minor" issues death as punishment. For example if parents caught their son as "drunkard" they have the right to stone him to death. Same for Homosexuality. No one neither the Quaran or the Bible should be taken "literaly". And the Bible is for sure not a "easier to handle" book then the Quaran.

In holland, christian-extremism is hardly any problem, other than the suffocating veil of christianity falling on our every freedom.(which is only partially the center of this discussion)
The center of this discusion (as how I understand it) is why one can have the right to "hate spech" and the other "not" where you take the Islam as target when the right that counts for the Islam counts for ALL religions. You cant discuss the one without the other. That is discrimination. What ever if those minority is worse or not is a different issue but we can not use 2 standarts for Religions in general.


I'd hardly call it a double standard if i blame Islam for having EVEN MORE skewed moral values.
But exactly that IS a double standart! You seem to attach more importance to issues in the Islamic religion then compared to either Christiantiy, Hinduism or Judaism when infact the Islam is based on at least 2 of those religions in its core (as Judaism, Christianity and the Islam appoint to the same god but in different ways).

You seem to have a issue with the hate spech some Iman makes in his Moseque. I dont say that I like this nor that I think its alright what they say.

But I ask you now directly what should one do against it? What is the solution to make those people stop the hate spech in the Mosque. Should we have laws that prohibits Islamic people to "hate spech" in the Mosque and thus "gag" them? Serously what would be your Idea to make it stop.

 

[Ravager69]

Should we have laws that prohibits Islamic people to "hate spech" in the Mosque and thus "gag" them? Serously what would be your Idea to make it stop.

You can put them under watch due to the threats they make? Not stalk them, but have a policeman watch them from or have a patrol sent to their house from time to time? Nothing too invasive anyway.

 

[Zeal]

Edit. To Sander

well im not sure about those ducth boys, but take this for two weights and two measures (from Guru Pat Condell):

http://dotsub.com/view/d8df8ea3-02b8-4c91-aa49-174e665290a9

followed up by

http://dotsub.com/view/fdb12aea-4724-4190-b1fc-4fc46e20f956

Anyway, i can give you more specific examples of my country, ofc i dont know specifics from another one.

peace,







wouldnt that be nice.

Edit 2. Bonus for england:

http://dotsub.com/view/2bac7cf2-c147-4fa9-880f-a087f646db3c

and

http://dotsub.com/view/52c92ad2-8bf3-475a-bd50-47296286cf18

yeah speacially designed courts for them, justice is trully equal...

Like i said before, cultural relativism has hit a new level of stupidity...

And remember, its never about religion, its power, control and resources (oh wait, arent they are the same?). ever. or do you think the crusades were about religion? well, maybe for the peasants...

Edit 3:

in defence of "iluminated" muslins: http://dotsub.com/view/68b6003a-bb94-4088-bc6a-69ceba76515b

 

[JunWisewar]

Glad the place where i live only have moderate Muslim that can co-exist with any people with any religion.

p/s : Fascism =/= Muslim Extremist. This thread's title is misleading.