Of course it's not about religion, but it's religion that's used to recruit the soldiers =P
Left wing Fascism And Freedom of speech.(oohh controversial)
- Thread starter Spoonfeed
- Start date
Actualy I have to say that its exactly this kind of people that I do not like when they start to "criticse" the Islamic world. It are the sides of the same coin. To generalise works in both ways.Zeal said:
I dont say that I am either happy or aprove many of the things in the arabic world. But its a different culture afterall.
[This is now highly exagerated I know, but its just to make a point] I sometimes here feel that the Islam is seen by many parts of the so called "educated" western world like the Maya or Atzec have been observed by the spanish Conquistadors which only focused on the human sacrifice in the aztec society calling it a "barbarian culture" that should be either removed or isolated but failed to see the rich and complex mythological and religious traditions, as well the remarkable architectural and artistic accomplishments such cultures have. By the way many of the issues we have today in the Islam have somewhere roots in western politcs, the "big" nations playing their games with "small" nations like Agypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran and now one is surprised about their hate? Well if one would sell weapons to your enemy that you battle for more then 10 years [See Iran contra Affair] and grown up with such politics in mind you sure would more easily get affected by such "hate" spech.
I said it many times in this topic. We have to stop to rate the Arabic world with its own traditions and cultural evolution with "our" european/western standarts and measurement. That is not goin to work. The Islamic/Arabic world is not one that I feel very conected with. And I do not agree with many of the political views and traditions they have neither. But one has to acept that its a different culture with its own rules and system. And it's not like that it was always the way how it is today. Maybe we should just try to look 40 or 50 years back when we in Europe had some of the worst systems the world has ever seen that lead to 2 extremly cruel World Wars. Its not that long in the past that we had a few "anti democratic" political systems here in europe as neighbours (Spain, Greece, Soviet union, GDR, etc.) were it was completely legal to send "homesexuals" in to prision and the psychiatry. And the way how Britain and France treated its colonies can neither be described as "civilised", if one just might mention Tunis and the Foreign Legion. Symphaty was absent on both sides of the conflict.
Some parts in the Islam are "extreme" today, 50 years back some states in Europe. Some 40 years back the Iran tried to establish a "western" society with clothes. Who knows were things will be in another 50 years in the future.
Crni i dont have anything against islam or they practises 8when done in their countrys, far away from me). i´m not anti-islam, im pro-freedom.
As stated the problem here is some arabs coming to our culture and trying to implement their laws. My problem is western people supporting it. My problem is seeing years of sacrifice by our women, by our homossexuals, by everyone who doesnt follow the Koran, being wasted piece by piece.
Should we wait for that freedom being completely stolen to do something about it, or should we prevent it (which is much easier)?
Saying its a diferent culture means nothing to me. i dont care if i seem arrogant, i dont want Arabic Saudi laws in my country simply because i believe ours are way better, especially in the treatment of women.
just because there is no "good" or "evil" written in stone, just because they are a construct of humanity, doesnt mean nothing has value, at least to me.
I tend to see "good" and "evil" by their pragmatic value, not moral dogmas or moral theories.
one thing is respecting other culture, another is acepting it. Just like i respect christians but im not one of them and i would fight back if they tried by force to make me a follower of their "godly" laws.
During the 12th century the parts were completely reversed. the Arabic nations were much more civilized and you could consider the crusaders the barbarians, i recomend as a small example the book "The crusades through arab eyes" by Amin Maalouf:
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/64533.The_Crusades_Through_Arab_Eyes
But who cares? I care about the present and future, taking the past as a guide not to repeat the same mistakes.
What´s in question is the destruction of our civilization, which is diferent but should have the same respect (they should think the same, just because our culture is diferent doesnt mean its worse), and in our countries our law should prevail.
The construction of "Sharia courts" is just the beginning unless we make a stand NOW.
Edit: btw what you keep defending is "cultural relativism" which should be taken carefully. In the 19th century it made our society blossom in terms of sexuality because people realised laws, morality (especially religion dogmas) and traditions werent written in stone. but that doesnt mean that making clitoris excisions to little girls should be as much acepted as not making it. It cant be seen just as a matter of "taste", we HAVE to take RESPONSABILITY. Plus every law, tradition, every culture is a product of specific pragmatic reasons that many have been lost in time. Especially the ones practioned by muslins. we must evolve, we cant acept everything just because "its diferent"...
As stated the problem here is some arabs coming to our culture and trying to implement their laws. My problem is western people supporting it. My problem is seeing years of sacrifice by our women, by our homossexuals, by everyone who doesnt follow the Koran, being wasted piece by piece.
Should we wait for that freedom being completely stolen to do something about it, or should we prevent it (which is much easier)?
Saying its a diferent culture means nothing to me. i dont care if i seem arrogant, i dont want Arabic Saudi laws in my country simply because i believe ours are way better, especially in the treatment of women.
just because there is no "good" or "evil" written in stone, just because they are a construct of humanity, doesnt mean nothing has value, at least to me.
I tend to see "good" and "evil" by their pragmatic value, not moral dogmas or moral theories.
one thing is respecting other culture, another is acepting it. Just like i respect christians but im not one of them and i would fight back if they tried by force to make me a follower of their "godly" laws.
During the 12th century the parts were completely reversed. the Arabic nations were much more civilized and you could consider the crusaders the barbarians, i recomend as a small example the book "The crusades through arab eyes" by Amin Maalouf:
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/64533.The_Crusades_Through_Arab_Eyes
But who cares? I care about the present and future, taking the past as a guide not to repeat the same mistakes.
What´s in question is the destruction of our civilization, which is diferent but should have the same respect (they should think the same, just because our culture is diferent doesnt mean its worse), and in our countries our law should prevail.
The construction of "Sharia courts" is just the beginning unless we make a stand NOW.
Edit: btw what you keep defending is "cultural relativism" which should be taken carefully. In the 19th century it made our society blossom in terms of sexuality because people realised laws, morality (especially religion dogmas) and traditions werent written in stone. but that doesnt mean that making clitoris excisions to little girls should be as much acepted as not making it. It cant be seen just as a matter of "taste", we HAVE to take RESPONSABILITY. Plus every law, tradition, every culture is a product of specific pragmatic reasons that many have been lost in time. Especially the ones practioned by muslins. we must evolve, we cant acept everything just because "its diferent"...
Zeal said:
[I was more directing toward the character in the videos posted as he seems to be rather "racistic" in my eyes. Particularly by calling a society Insane. But thats a different issue]
The construction of "Sharia courts" is just the beginning unless we make a stand NOW.
The question is just to stand up and do what? What kind of response? A lot of complaining about some issues. But I am somewhat inclined to believe that some do not understand the value of democracy or the real background behind it (I have no clue about any dutch laws, I just experience things in Germany).
What would be the alternative ? Again, to gag a whole religion and apply a different value? If things in some european nation are working wrong, then things have to be changed. But one religion should not be handled different compared to others.
Wait, you think linking to some completely random dude ranting in some videos is valid evidence supporting your position?Zeal said:
I don't much care about random examples of these things happening. I've already explained multiple times that that's a bad thing. So?
As for the Sharia in Britain, there have been threads about this before. That proposal is not about implementing Sharia law in Britain, nor is it about allowing muslims to ignore the law. The proposal is to allow groups of people to opt-in on a contract and then have that contract (in this case Sharia) be lawfully enforceable. It does not allow them to ignore British law, and they cannot enforce unlawful parts of Sharia.
It is solely meant to give muslims the option to enforce their own laws that do not conflict with British law, pertaining to small mostly family issues within their own society, and it can only be enforced when people agree to it.
Try to do some actual research before you start ranting about 'defending our culture' next time.
"Wait, you think linking to some completely random dude ranting in some videos is valid evidence supporting your position?"
maybe if you did some research you would find its not random rambling, but it actually happened. Want me to link newspaper headlines or you think you can do it yourself? - i´m not sure you if are saying that because is a "random dude" the ranting is also "random" or that its not a valid evidence because again its "random ranting". if not plese ignore this sentence :p
I linked the "random dude" because he clearly puts it out like it is, saving me the work of typing the same.
"I don't much care about random examples of these things happening. I've already explained multiple times that that's a bad thing. So?"
yeah minor details... One minor detail here, another there, minor details growing, its all fun and games until someone loses an eye, right?
Let´s worry when there is no turning point, that is much smarter, and political correct ofc, we cant forget about PC, the new dogma.
Especially when we get random human rights laws that state criticizing islam is now a crime, when islam culture is based on criticizing every other. The end of free speech is clearly a random thing for you i guess.
"As for the Sharia in Britain, there have been threads about this before. That proposal is not about implementing Sharia law in Britain, nor is it about allowing muslims to ignore the law. The proposal is to allow groups of people to opt-in on a contract and then have that contract (in this case Sharia) be lawfully enforceable. It does not allow them to ignore British law, and they cannot enforce unlawful parts of Sharia.
It is solely meant to give muslims the option to enforce their own laws that do not conflict with British law, pertaining to small mostly family issues within their own society, and it can only be enforced when people agree to it. "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1535478/Sharia-law-is-spreading-as-authority-wanes.html
"Islamic sharia law is gaining an increasing foothold in parts of Britain, a report claims.
Sharia, derived from several sources including the Koran, is applied to varying degrees in predominantly Muslim countries but it has no binding status in Britain." - just like british law.
"Mr Yusuf told the programme he felt more bound by the traditional law of his birth than by the laws of his adopted country. "Us Somalis, wherever we are in the world, we have our own law," he said. "It's not sharia, it's not religious — it's just a cultural thing.""
Please by all means, we would never force our laws in our country to you, since you already have one made especially for your "culture", which should prevail above any other ofc, because mutual respect is important...
Lol when people agree to it? Especially when muslin men agree to it.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4749183.ece
"There are concerns that women who agree to go to tribunal courts are getting worse deals because Islamic law favours men" - Again exactly like british law, no two weights and measures here....
.... (again just some concerns, details i say)
"In the six cases of domestic violence, Siddiqi said the judges ordered the husbands to take anger management classes and mentoring from community elders (LOLOLOLO this one really cracks me up, since were the elders who taught them everything they should know about women, details again). There was no further punishment.
In each case, the women subsequently withdrew the complaints they had lodged with the police and the police stopped their investigations. (wwwhhhaatt? a change of heart right after the sentene of "guidance from elders", how quaint
)
Siddiqi said that in the domestic violence cases, the advantage was that marriages were saved and couples given a second chance. "
What a joy for the women, they were able to save their marriage.
Its funny when you say "allow groups of people to opt-in on a contract", now how much naif a person must be to think the women on those communities agree to sharia? They are pressured to go to sharia when police investigations start (if they didnt there wouldnt even be the need of sharia courts, they could just agree in the privacy of their family to let it go ofc) by their communities, or else...
Clearly you must do some research on islamic women treatment.
Well, maybe i should convert and move to britain, free perks FTW At least next time i stab or rape someone i can go to a sharia court that is exactly the same as a national court but more lenient.
I guess "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others "
Oh wait, but what would be the fun of that? My self-esteem would drop to negative points, afterall i already have much better and much more without recurring to terror and fear... meh
maybe if you did some research you would find its not random rambling, but it actually happened. Want me to link newspaper headlines or you think you can do it yourself? - i´m not sure you if are saying that because is a "random dude" the ranting is also "random" or that its not a valid evidence because again its "random ranting". if not plese ignore this sentence :p
I linked the "random dude" because he clearly puts it out like it is, saving me the work of typing the same.
"I don't much care about random examples of these things happening. I've already explained multiple times that that's a bad thing. So?"
yeah minor details... One minor detail here, another there, minor details growing, its all fun and games until someone loses an eye, right?
Let´s worry when there is no turning point, that is much smarter, and political correct ofc, we cant forget about PC, the new dogma.
Especially when we get random human rights laws that state criticizing islam is now a crime, when islam culture is based on criticizing every other. The end of free speech is clearly a random thing for you i guess.
"As for the Sharia in Britain, there have been threads about this before. That proposal is not about implementing Sharia law in Britain, nor is it about allowing muslims to ignore the law. The proposal is to allow groups of people to opt-in on a contract and then have that contract (in this case Sharia) be lawfully enforceable. It does not allow them to ignore British law, and they cannot enforce unlawful parts of Sharia.
It is solely meant to give muslims the option to enforce their own laws that do not conflict with British law, pertaining to small mostly family issues within their own society, and it can only be enforced when people agree to it. "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1535478/Sharia-law-is-spreading-as-authority-wanes.html
"Islamic sharia law is gaining an increasing foothold in parts of Britain, a report claims.
Sharia, derived from several sources including the Koran, is applied to varying degrees in predominantly Muslim countries but it has no binding status in Britain." - just like british law.
"Mr Yusuf told the programme he felt more bound by the traditional law of his birth than by the laws of his adopted country. "Us Somalis, wherever we are in the world, we have our own law," he said. "It's not sharia, it's not religious — it's just a cultural thing.""
Please by all means, we would never force our laws in our country to you, since you already have one made especially for your "culture", which should prevail above any other ofc, because mutual respect is important...
Lol when people agree to it? Especially when muslin men agree to it.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4749183.ece
"There are concerns that women who agree to go to tribunal courts are getting worse deals because Islamic law favours men" - Again exactly like british law, no two weights and measures here....
.... (again just some concerns, details i say)
"In the six cases of domestic violence, Siddiqi said the judges ordered the husbands to take anger management classes and mentoring from community elders (LOLOLOLO this one really cracks me up, since were the elders who taught them everything they should know about women, details again). There was no further punishment.
In each case, the women subsequently withdrew the complaints they had lodged with the police and the police stopped their investigations. (wwwhhhaatt? a change of heart right after the sentene of "guidance from elders", how quaint
)Siddiqi said that in the domestic violence cases, the advantage was that marriages were saved and couples given a second chance. "
What a joy for the women, they were able to save their marriage.
Its funny when you say "allow groups of people to opt-in on a contract", now how much naif a person must be to think the women on those communities agree to sharia? They are pressured to go to sharia when police investigations start (if they didnt there wouldnt even be the need of sharia courts, they could just agree in the privacy of their family to let it go ofc) by their communities, or else...
Clearly you must do some research on islamic women treatment.
Well, maybe i should convert and move to britain, free perks FTW
At least next time i stab or rape someone i can go to a sharia court that is exactly the same as a national court but more lenient. I guess "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others "
Oh wait, but what would be the fun of that? My self-esteem would drop to negative points, afterall i already have much better and much more without recurring to terror and fear... meh
The issue is just that some want a double standart regarding the Islam (which I am not directing toward you right now)Zeal said:
Crni Vuk said:
yeah i know... :/
like i said in a previous post that is the "real" problem. I really dont understand what drives them. Is it guilt for something they never did? Its capitulation before the next barbaric invasion (since our civ is in decline)? Were they brainwhashed? or are they just plain stupid?
i really dont get it...
Edit: Anyway i agree with you about the part of focusing only on the bad things of a culture. You can find many cultural treasures on islamic civ, not forgetting renassaince is a direct consequence of a Califa that supported it in Florence (and our society a direct consequence of renassaince). Even today the westren world uses many cultural islamic bases in the construction of our society, which should be praised.
Again my problem are the double-standarts some arabs want to implement in our culture and to worsen the situation are the "barbaric" ones... :/
For instance, you dont find muslins that respect their wifes demmanding sharia courts.
Edit 2:
The follow up about the end of free speech.
http://dotsub.com/view/1abf5a3e-e94a-44c6-9a8c-73152eec0c54
and
http://www.hetvrijevolk.com/?pagina=7900
edit 3:
polygamy allowed in britain:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...ltiple-wives-will-mean-multiple-benefits.html
Imho its actually a burden for the guys, its much smarter for the couple just having girlfriends, but to each his own, as long no law is break, and apparently its not anymore
islamization of the western culture details