Let's Talk About The FEV Virus

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by The King of The Worms, Aug 8, 2017.

  1. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    618
    Jul 2, 2016
    I think they should have just come up with some other mutagen to make horrible humanoid mutants, if they felt it was necessary for the game. However, Fallout is more than just supermutants so I don't see it as being necessary. While there are permanent facets, e.g raiders and power armor, that should be in every game I have to ask: where's all the creativity gone? Weren't supermutants a new idea at some point (homage or otherwise)? Ditto for the BoS, Enclave, and every other non-generic faction. Bearing in mind that there should be unique raider factions, e.g Khans, Paradise Falls slavers, the Fiends, etc, not just mad-maxian maniacs with no names. I mean even Fo3 came up with trogs, and swampfolk, so why exactly do we need FEV? At the very least they could come up with a half-assed replacement that makes big dumb brutes, and has a reason for being all over the damn place. Just no more FEV...
     
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  2. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    858
    Apr 22, 2016
    @NMLevesque I have to admit you just touch upon a a very solid fact I have not thought of. Anyone else notice how stagnant the creativity is in the Bethesda titles? Compared to the originals that introduced new factions, and conflicts; Bethesda has been riding on the coat tails of pre-established conflicts literally this entire time.

    I can't think of anything that they really introduced story, faction, and lore wise that was remotely close to the quality from the previous titles. Granted they introduced their horribly insulting writing to their games, but all of their conflicts revolve around an already established conflict within the universe.

    From what I can tell Fallout 4 is their most original title so far, which if you think about the "factions" they introduced anyone can tell the quality standards are abysmally low.
     
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  3. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    Go find a lost family member.

    In all seriousness they had potential with the Institute. In Fallout 3 you only had a little information about them and they seemed to have a powerful presence. It's a shame they made the Institute so stupid in 4.
     
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  4. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    858
    Apr 22, 2016
    I completely agree, from my observation its almost as if they start with a good idea but then get lazy with it. So much failed potential.

    If I had the opportunity to design the Institute I would not have them be isolationists, but a small and very secure settlement bent on taking over the common wealth through the abuse of technology. This would allow them to actually be in direct conflict with the Brotherhood of Steel (Which if I had them in the game they would have a very limited presence) as well any other faction. The synths I would have retconned into oblivion and had them instead focus completely on genetic manipulation and robotics. This would actually make more sense then ripping off Westworld.

    Imagine if you will coming across a settlement where all the inhabitants are suffering the effects of a plague, or another under constant attack by machine designed for war? It could also be pushed further to have them be involved with a hand full of cloak and dagger operations to eliminate threats (such as the player) or plot to seize needed resources.

    For the resources they could have implemented something similar to a mining location that would generate a given resource for player settlements, having the player be in direct conflict with them to obtain said resources as well.

    Bethesda's entire "Institute" Faction is a cardboard cut out of a real thought, and I honestly feel bad for the idea because it was squandered.
     
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  5. ThatZenoGuy

    ThatZenoGuy Residential Zealous Evolved Nano Organism

    Nov 8, 2016
    As far as I am aware of, the only people who had access to FEV was the Enclave, and The Master.

    Both of which died before anyone else could take it, so FEV past Fallout 2 is no longer an issue.

    The only remaining places you could find the stuff, is in FEV mutated creatures, who might still have some of the virus in their system.
     
  6. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    618
    Jul 2, 2016
    I would have written the Institute as a transhumanist faction. Whose goal is to evolve beyond the inhumanity that caused the Great war. Philosophically they see fixing society as a dead end, because its components are essentially no different than they were ten thousand years ago. Humanity, in other words, has to change or war, war never will (on another note I really wish they'd come up with more clever ways to use that theme).

    However, their priorities quickly turn to greed. As they focus on extending their own lives indefinitely, reshaping their entire society around the process of sustaining the elite few, the 'Originals', as they grow ever more demented and thus deranged. The tech to truly transcend their inhumanity is used as a sort of ultimate promise, like heaven, and so they instruct the faithful to worship them. I can't decide if their should be a Ghost in the Shell or Akira type moment, where someone ascends to a state of machine-godhood. I mean, it's sort of a question of whether it'd turn out more like the Master, or that one ending from Tactics where the Full Metal Jacket drill sergeant becomes robot-Hitler.

    Anyway, their synths are just humans with cybernetics, who have had the minds wiped and reprogrammed a la robobrains, so they can serve as slaves, expendable supersoldiers, etc. They're made to question their own humanity as a way of keeping them down, but it's not a scientific assessment. Which makes it all fit quite neatly into even Fo1 canon. There would also be an internal conflict. With people who have bought into the propaganda, and those who knowingly perpetuate it for personal gain. Then there could have been a whole great big reference to history, vis a vis, slavery, viewing others as less than human, the sheer greed of industry behind it all, the underground railroad. So you could solve that particular problem by providing scientific proof that synths are biologically human.
     
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  7. Pwener

    Pwener FEV is the equivalent of a chest x-ray.

    536
    Aug 15, 2017
    I echo Archengaia "The Lorerunner's" hasitation when he builds up the courage to dare say he liked Fallout 3. I honestly don't have a problem with Vault-Tec having FEV. They're Vault-Tec for crying out loud, what weren't they involved in should be the real question.

    What I do have a problem is The Institute having FEV. Now that makes absolute zero sense no matter how you spin it. Pre-War institute of technology where House studied and I'm pretty sure if you were to mention FEV to him he'd have no clue what you're talking about. Why? Because The Institute Of Technology would naver have had access to the stuff. Vault-Tec? Possibly. Boston? Hell no!

    They wanted Super Mutants in Boston and they took the easy way out. Well, you know what else they made easy? Me not buying their "game."
     
  8. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    So you'd recycle the entire plot of Fallout 1?

    And no, Fallout 4 doesn't rip off Westworld. Check the release dates.

    If you played the game, you'd know the Institute didn't have FEV originally, it came through to the faction in ~*mYsTeRiOuS*~ ways. You'd also know that the CIT wasn't just a place of learning, but a center of military research (because the US was a fascist junta at that point), not to mention the FEV was instrumental in the Institute's 3rd Gen synth project.

    The thing is, the 3rd Gen synths are basically the intended end result of West-Tek's FEV research, the actual super mutants.
     
  9. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Aug 16, 2010
    Westworld is from 1973.
    If the 3rd Gen Synths were basically the real super mutants, why aren't they easily distinguishable by a blood test? I thought FEV was always supposed to turn DNA from a double helix to a quadruple helix, which should be relatively easy to see with some medical equipment. Also, didn't they use Gen 3 synths to cover up their FEV experiments, implying that the Gen 3 synths were around before the FEV? But then Swan doesn't make much sense, because he is implied to be a pre-war prisoner...
     
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  10. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    858
    Apr 22, 2016
    I'm not sure where to begin on this one, "Westworld" is a lot older than you think. Check the release dates for the older one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westworld_(film), not the newer (remake) one.

    That second paragraph literally doesn't makes sense. The concept of the "Synth" goes completely against FEV super soldiers project due to the fact the intended end result of the FEV project was to use real human soldiers, and not some toy soldier with a military microchip jammed in their skull. If I rememeber correctly the whole reason the plan got started was a way to boost the military's might without having to rely so heavily on the manufacture and consumption of resources, allowing the military to optimize their use of the "human" resource.

    Any time someone tells you that something mysterious is the reason why something is, chances are they are just feeding you complete crap. Expecting the person to believe in the concept of "magic"; Fallout while sometimes can be metaphorically magical, is not an magical place.

    FEV being magically present outside of its development facility, where it was still being refined in the hope of producing a stable product for use. Makes no sense considering the decision to consolidate its location to prevent America's enemies from learning or stealing it. This is yet another retcon by Bethesda, a company that didn't put in the effort to actually research and understand the IP.

    I also feel that super mutants are far superior to synths as well, while I will admit I am biased with this point. It is also inherently obvious considering Super mutants are and can be a real threat again to the wasteland. Provided of course they aren't constantly turned into orcs by Bethesda.
     
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  11. Risewild

    Risewild Antediluvian as Feck
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    I think FEV was created as a cure for the great mysterious plague that was affecting the USA at the time. It failed as a cure before the bombs fell, though.
     
  12. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    858
    Apr 22, 2016
    Yes actually, but they saw promise in that failure :)
     
  13. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    So why don't the Institute re-attempt using FEV for a cure, at least for cancer, again?
     
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  14. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Aug 16, 2010
    Funny how they used SHAAAAAAUN's seemingly pure genome to create the 3rd Gen synths, but it turns out that he's the one to get some super rare and deadly cancer. Actually, that could have been a cool story as well. As the 3rd Gen synths are based on Father's DNA, they also share his affinity for cancer, leading to very short life-spans. Instead of synths being an already perfected technology, the story would then be about perfecting (or stopping) the synths that, at the moment, only live for a few years before succumbing to massive amounts of cancer and disease. The player character is unfrozen because he (or she), like Shaun, has mostly undamaged pre-war DNA and is closely related to Father, so the player's DNA could be the key to stop this synth-cancer.
    Too much of a Blade Runner rip-off, probably.
     
  15. ThatZenoGuy

    ThatZenoGuy Residential Zealous Evolved Nano Organism

    Nov 8, 2016
    Why the fuck didn't Shaun turn into a supermutant, then revert using the magic super mutant cure!?

    AHHHHHHHHH.
     
  16. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    858
    Apr 22, 2016
    That "super mutant cure" was by far the biggest **** you I saw in Fallout 4. Seriously I can't even talk about it without becoming agitated.
    The master would be greatly saddened by that abomination.

    However I was a fan of the Fallout 2 super mutant cure, aka turn big green guy into goo syringe.
     
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  17. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    And it has fuck-all to do with Fallout 4, since the animatronics in the park go haywire as a result of a computer virus, rather than being 3D printed superhumans (which is the latest one's shtick; not that I'm overly fond of it, since it has a rambling story with incoherent themes).

    You do realize that technology and society march on? Whatever West-Tek and the U.S. junta intended to do with FEV is immaterial to what the Institute wanted, namely, create an organic machine with superior performance to their Gen2 synths. Also, you do not remember correctly, the purpose of the FEV program is not established in the games: It's inferred to be a super soldier program by numerous characters and implied, but nobody actually explains what it was supposed to do.

    The 3rd Gen synth comes close because it makes a good deal of sense: They can use all existing materiel and weapons, rather than having to use custom-fitted weapons and armor, like the brutes we love.

    The fact they left the source open isn't magic. It's leaving the source open. Fallout always operated with a degree of mystery present, particularly in Fallout 2, where you had the Enclave and advanced power armor coming in from nowhere. In fact, it wasn't until the Fallout Bible that the APA received any sort of background. It just kind of was, shoehorned in to have a new, pretty power armor, without regard for basic logic.

    Second, FEV was already established to be present outside West Tek, in the form of Mariposa, where the military progressed to human trials, so that's your claim about "producing a stable product" down the drain. They already had the product, the question was on how to apply it to humans to achieve repeatable results. Vault 87 makes sense from a planning perspective, as putting your eggs in one basket, particularly with a project that's apparently essential to national defense, is just good thinking. In fact, the original experiment was scrapped to accommodate the new project (check the completion dates):

    https://fallout.gamepedia.com/Citadel_terminals#Vault_87

    Third, the way it's written now, it's generally clear that the FEV can be harnessed and used for a variety of purposes (making it a wonderful cure). There's no statement to the effect that locations were ever consolidated; there is putting the contract under direct military oversight and control (effectively nationalizing West Tek), but it doesn't necessarily mean it was specifically consolidated.

    Recycling factions for the sake of nostalgia is bad, wasn't that part of the argument? Or is it good if anyone by Bethesda does it?

    It actually isn't. What you're talking about is the Pan-Immunity Virion Project, which was scrapped after a better way to modify DNA was created. The actual virus modifies the DNA in a viral fashion (well, obviously) and reinjects it, leaving the DNA structure intact. Detecting FEV itself is a problem because none of the synths were actually manufactured by infecting humans, but were assembled via advanced 3D printing (or synthesizing or whatever the retrofuturistic word for it is). The original FEV experiments combined with Shaun's DNA provided the base template via SCIENCE!, which is then modified to suit whatever mission parameters are required.

    https://fallout.gamepedia.com/Pan-Immunity_Virion

    https://fallout.gamepedia.com/Forced_Evolutionary_Virus#Overview

    Started as such, evolved into something much more. Plus, there's the possibility that the government wasn't really interested in curing the Plague, giving how it allowed a much more direct control of society.

    It's pretty much a direct copy paste.

    Cancer is a group of diseases that constantly eludes our understanding, because it's incredibly varied. You can have a perfect genome and live a healthy life, only to be consumed by cancer seemingly at random. On the other hand, you have people who indulge in all possible vice, only to die at a ripe old age, despite being rated at an incredibly high risk of developing cancer. Hell, my late grandfather developed lung cancer and leukemia one after the other, with only the latter managing to kill him.

    That's the question. He specifically answers: Because not everyone wants to go to these extreme ends only to gain a few more years. I like it.

    How about you read up on a little lore first, from a little-known game called Fallout. It came out in 1997. I bolded the relevant part.

    The theoretical possibility of a cure was established twenty years ago, in the very first game. Its existence is proof of in-depth research conducted by Bethesda, something you failed to do. And yes, if you're making sweeping statements, I expect you to have done your research to back it up.

    And just in case you get hung up on the removal of FEV, I've bolded the relevant part too. ZAX specifically states that it does not know of a way to do it, but since it's been sitting in a burned-out lab for 80 years, rather than actively pursuing a genetic engineering project using FEV as basis, it's kind of unable to verify whether there exists a way to do it. The Institute has achieved it, since it had several decades to work with.

    I loved that part, to be honest. Makes you go WTF at first, but it takes a very in-depth knowledge of lore to appreciate it. It also shows the Institute's technological advancement and Virgil's long-term planning (not taking the cure with him is easily attributed to being under intense pressure; people aren't perfect).
     
  18. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    858
    Apr 22, 2016
    My reaction to the above:

    Please provide all relevant links and cited material for that conflagration of text.
    (Currently reviewing the few links that were provided.)

    "Recycling factions for the sake of nostalgia is bad, wasn't that part of the argument? Or is it good if anyone by Bethesda does it?"

    Does this argument not also apply to the liberal use of different FEV stains?

    "In 2076, the NBC division of West-Tekachieved breakthrough results in the Pan-Immunity Virion Project. The United States Defense Department, in fear of international espionage, moved a military team under the command of Colonel Robert Spindel and Captain Roger Maxson onto the site to secure and oversee the project, now dubbed the FEV (Forced Evolutionary Virus) project.[1] On January 7, 2077, all FEV research was moved to the newly constructed Mariposa Military Base to commence testing of the virus on human subjects."

    I'm not seeing any indication that they moved the West Tek FEV any were else? Also considering that this was the beginning of a military coup and the BOS, I highly doubt they would have allowed FEV to be transported around. Also this citation you have given only reinforces my position.

    So far I'm having difficulty understanding your position in this debate since your material is contradicting your points. Can you please elaborate or clarify so that I may understand?
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  19. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    You're expecting Bethesda to put thought in to the idea of synths?

    They literally just made humans with machines in there head, and left the players to fill in the blanks.
    I mean, Supermutants in Bethesda games add basically nothing to the experience. They add a race of dumb orcs with no motivation to fight you beyond "We kill, our society is based around killing".
    They took a once interesting part of the franchise and turned it in to nothing.
    So Shaun rejects cancer treatment, because he dismisses it as an "extreme end" without explaining why it is one, or what long-term harm will be done by it?
    Great, so where was the in-depth research conducted by Bethesda when they wrote Kid in the Fridge?

    Also, doesn't it seem more likely that Bethesda thought about the idea of a Supermutant cure and implemented it without reading through the source material, and it just so happened to coincidentally be mentioned previously, then Bethesda doing actual research in to what they write?
     
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  20. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Guest

    Yes. I tend to think fixating on a series that you believe to be in decline as a whole is genuinely mentally unhealthy. I've seen numerous people on the site literally depressed about it. The problem with Fallout 3 was never due to it having Mutants to me because I can get around them wanting to use the most iconic elements of the series so that it stays recognizable. If Bethesda did not put Mutants in Fallout a large amount of fans would have been butthurt.